Extra Punctuation: Building Sequels Badly
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I definitely agree that fans (and people in general) don't know what they want.
But I think they should be listened, what kinds of thing they liked, what were received badly. Just don't give them what they ask for. Just think of any TV-shows with characters with sexual tension and the possibility they'll end up together.
Fans want to see them together. But if that happened they'd be disappointed, and the dynamic would be gone, if the writers didn't take it to a totally new direction, which wouldn't be what those fans wanted.
Portal was one of those games I never thought would get a sequel (which shows how much I understand about bussiness, I just thought it was fine on it's own), but I'm fine with Portal 2. It's not what I would have wanted to see, but enjoyable enough.
But I think they should be listened, what kinds of thing they liked, what were received badly. Just don't give them what they ask for. Just think of any TV-shows with characters with sexual tension and the possibility they'll end up together.
Fans want to see them together. But if that happened they'd be disappointed, and the dynamic would be gone, if the writers didn't take it to a totally new direction, which wouldn't be what those fans wanted.
Portal was one of those games I never thought would get a sequel (which shows how much I understand about bussiness, I just thought it was fine on it's own), but I'm fine with Portal 2. It's not what I would have wanted to see, but enjoyable enough.
One example of a character/game having a sequel that didn't hint at it would have to be (rather strangely)... Mario.
Start with the original NES Mario game. It ended with no suggestion of a sequel. The first sequel... well Mario Brothers 2 doesn't count, so mario 3, significant improvement. and things have just been continuing on from there. Sure there's been a lot of stagnation with him every so often but the jumps from Mario Brothers, Mario Brothers 3 and then Super Mario World were all pretty good.
Then, another one which is a better example: Samus.
the first game ended with no hint of a sequel or even a possibility of it, just "you finished the game. Congrats" Then Metroid 2 (gameboy) came out. That one ended again without a potential for a sequel (from memory) and then, step 3: Super Metroid. One of the top rated games that still looks awesome. I don't know what peoples opinion on the Prime trilogy was, I thought it was good but I don't really know how others received it so meh.
Command and conquer never had the most amazing stories, but they mostly ended pretty definitively and the next one that came out would tend to be better.
Start with the original NES Mario game. It ended with no suggestion of a sequel. The first sequel... well Mario Brothers 2 doesn't count, so mario 3, significant improvement. and things have just been continuing on from there. Sure there's been a lot of stagnation with him every so often but the jumps from Mario Brothers, Mario Brothers 3 and then Super Mario World were all pretty good.
Then, another one which is a better example: Samus.
the first game ended with no hint of a sequel or even a possibility of it, just "you finished the game. Congrats" Then Metroid 2 (gameboy) came out. That one ended again without a potential for a sequel (from memory) and then, step 3: Super Metroid. One of the top rated games that still looks awesome. I don't know what peoples opinion on the Prime trilogy was, I thought it was good but I don't really know how others received it so meh.
Command and conquer never had the most amazing stories, but they mostly ended pretty definitively and the next one that came out would tend to be better.
Hilariously on-point as ever. I think I'm genuinely starting to like Extra Punctuation moreso than Zero Punctuation.
Another example I come across I think is Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. Now...though it doesn't quite fit what you describe here as a pre-requisite for a good sequel, I remember always running across comments like "Oh, but the RPG elements and the equipment bollocking around is what MAKES it a *proper* RPG" and "Yeh, but the music was shittier in ME2 whereas ME1 was that old-skool 80s stuff I like to regurgitate all the time."
And unsurprisingly regardless of these vocal fans, Mass Effect 2 was even MORESO liked than Mass Effect 1, not just in terms of sold units but also by critical acclaim. Because guess what...RPG mechanics dissapearing doesn't have to be as sad as you oldschool numpties make it out to be. And this is me speaking as a big-ass fan of the uncompromising nature of killing off your characters in games like Baldur's Gate 1! Also, if you genuinely think min/maxing stats is what people in general find enjoyable about RPGs...you are wrong. You're just one of *those* people and while it might be going opposite of your own personal fetish, a lot of people also disagree with you.
Finally, the music was utterly ace. Oh, it might not have been quite the 'classic type' from the 80s you claim you love so much. But what it *was* was reminiscent of all the electronic music coming out in videogames during the 90s, some of which I still have very fond memories of. And you know what? A lot of us love those things to death even MORE than the 80s shtick.
Meh. Already wrote way too much here as it is. Probably going to have a ton of comments 'proving me wrong' and getting into it all again. That said, keep on writing by all means! For the past few months or so I can't recall a time when I clicked Extra Punctuation and found myself dissapointed or worse 'sorta half-way pleased'. It always provoked me and that is good.
Another example I come across I think is Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. Now...though it doesn't quite fit what you describe here as a pre-requisite for a good sequel, I remember always running across comments like "Oh, but the RPG elements and the equipment bollocking around is what MAKES it a *proper* RPG" and "Yeh, but the music was shittier in ME2 whereas ME1 was that old-skool 80s stuff I like to regurgitate all the time."
And unsurprisingly regardless of these vocal fans, Mass Effect 2 was even MORESO liked than Mass Effect 1, not just in terms of sold units but also by critical acclaim. Because guess what...RPG mechanics dissapearing doesn't have to be as sad as you oldschool numpties make it out to be. And this is me speaking as a big-ass fan of the uncompromising nature of killing off your characters in games like Baldur's Gate 1! Also, if you genuinely think min/maxing stats is what people in general find enjoyable about RPGs...you are wrong. You're just one of *those* people and while it might be going opposite of your own personal fetish, a lot of people also disagree with you.
Finally, the music was utterly ace. Oh, it might not have been quite the 'classic type' from the 80s you claim you love so much. But what it *was* was reminiscent of all the electronic music coming out in videogames during the 90s, some of which I still have very fond memories of. And you know what? A lot of us love those things to death even MORE than the 80s shtick.
Meh. Already wrote way too much here as it is. Probably going to have a ton of comments 'proving me wrong' and getting into it all again. That said, keep on writing by all means! For the past few months or so I can't recall a time when I clicked Extra Punctuation and found myself dissapointed or worse 'sorta half-way pleased'. It always provoked me and that is good.
"Baa Baa four legs good two legs bad"
Awesome, an Animal Farm reference.
OT:
I do agree that most sequels are not as good as the original, but as long as they come close then it will still give me a little more enjoyment out of the franchise. However, there is always a point when a franchise needs to die *cough* Halo *cough*
Awesome, an Animal Farm reference.
OT:
I do agree that most sequels are not as good as the original, but as long as they come close then it will still give me a little more enjoyment out of the franchise. However, there is always a point when a franchise needs to die *cough* Halo *cough*
I get using Portal as an example, but if you wanted to really bring the point home, there is a 800 pound gorilla in the room, and he stabs you from across the map and screams obscenities into a mic.
I think the best example of a game where the devopers listend too much is sonic 4.
Fans always complain about how they want sonic how he was in the Mega drive days, sega took this too far and what we ended up with wasnt really a sequal, but a rehash of old sonic levels, with 0 new enemys or bosses.
A good sequal would be like what sonic 3 was to sonic 2.
Fans always complain about how they want sonic how he was in the Mega drive days, sega took this too far and what we ended up with wasnt really a sequal, but a rehash of old sonic levels, with 0 new enemys or bosses.
A good sequal would be like what sonic 3 was to sonic 2.
Thank you, for saying everything that I wanted to for me. I was saying just the other week on his Portal 2 review that I thought he was seriously over-idolizing the original, good to know I'm not the only one who thinks that.Carbo said:
Megaman 2 and 3 had better stories than Megaman 1? Marginally, maybe, in that there were actual cinematics (using the term loosely here) at the end of both. And I don't think it's fair to say that Megaman 1 wasn't intended to have a sequel. Though Keije Inafune (forgive the misspelling) was just getting off the ground and didn't know for sure that there would be a sequel, much of Megaman 2 was made up of things that he has stated in interviews that he had hoped to include in the first game.2xDouble said:
Though I don't think you'll find very many who would argue 1's overall superiority over 2 and 3, as they remain to this day two of my favorite games.
Holding up Portal 2 as an example of a developer's creativity being stifled and the direction of their sequels being driven by overly demanding fans is fucking stupid. If we fans are so all powerful in our determination to force Valve to cater to our whims then where the fuck is Half Life 3?
The problem is that fans (the Internet in general) is that it is one big gelatinous mass as Yahtzee would say. It has differing opinions from different people, but you usually can't distinguish them. A lot of people want some underrated aspect given precendence over a tried and true formula, just for the sake of something different. What they fail to realize is that the same feeling may only be shared by one or two, not one or two million.
Take WWE for instance. People who make it as main event talent do so because they are marketed correctly and people by their merchandise. For all the nerds on the internet saying, "so-and-so can't wrestle" or "this guy's a tool," it falls on deaf ears because that person is making WWE money. If you gave people on the internet control, you'd see a bunch of unknown and unproven talent thrust into the spotlight on a daily basis with no continuity. Yes, the person you want might get notoriety, but that risk may prove disasterous if the audience fails to share the opinion.
You can't please everyone. You can hardly even predict that what sells today will work tomorrow. Sadly, the marketplace is such that proven titles sell because of the "brand," not the content. I stopped buying videogames because games like Final Fantasy XII and Devil Summoner failed to live up to expectations I had for the company. I don't see the "brand" anymore, because I'm not shelling out $60 per title. I can let the game dissapoint or surprise me (in FFXIII's case make me scream fury over the sheer boredom I wasted 30 hours experiencing) without risking more money.
Long story short, the internet is only a small part of life. Taking what some doofus says too seriously (unless it is a prevailing opinion backed up by hundreds/thousands of people elsewhere) could get you in trouble.
Take WWE for instance. People who make it as main event talent do so because they are marketed correctly and people by their merchandise. For all the nerds on the internet saying, "so-and-so can't wrestle" or "this guy's a tool," it falls on deaf ears because that person is making WWE money. If you gave people on the internet control, you'd see a bunch of unknown and unproven talent thrust into the spotlight on a daily basis with no continuity. Yes, the person you want might get notoriety, but that risk may prove disasterous if the audience fails to share the opinion.
You can't please everyone. You can hardly even predict that what sells today will work tomorrow. Sadly, the marketplace is such that proven titles sell because of the "brand," not the content. I stopped buying videogames because games like Final Fantasy XII and Devil Summoner failed to live up to expectations I had for the company. I don't see the "brand" anymore, because I'm not shelling out $60 per title. I can let the game dissapoint or surprise me (in FFXIII's case make me scream fury over the sheer boredom I wasted 30 hours experiencing) without risking more money.
Long story short, the internet is only a small part of life. Taking what some doofus says too seriously (unless it is a prevailing opinion backed up by hundreds/thousands of people elsewhere) could get you in trouble.
Portal 2 is great, and if you don't think so, you must be... HIGHLY OPINIONATED!
Forget simplicity. I loved the single-player campaign AND GLaDOS AND the backstory! GLaDOS was given more character ("*lights go on* I made it all up. *confetti spray* Surprise! Oh, come on..."), and Wheatley ("I'm going to go on the assumption that you're NOT dead...") and Cave Johnson ("I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down, with the lemons!") not only made the story more funny but also made the story more realistic (Aperture's Potato Science award from Illinois, for instance).
Forget simplicity. I loved the single-player campaign AND GLaDOS AND the backstory! GLaDOS was given more character ("*lights go on* I made it all up. *confetti spray* Surprise! Oh, come on..."), and Wheatley ("I'm going to go on the assumption that you're NOT dead...") and Cave Johnson ("I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down, with the lemons!") not only made the story more funny but also made the story more realistic (Aperture's Potato Science award from Illinois, for instance).
Yeah, and they're gonna spend it just based on the title. Fuck em.Soveru said:
I've seen all the outrage at Dragon Age 2, and I tell you now, despite my trepidation, my money will be inevitably spent on it. Bioware would not somehow get more money out of me by doing what I want them to, they guaranteed my purchase of the sequel with their excellence in the original.
It almost always works that way. Fans don't need to be satisfied to be exploited. Therefore, why listen to them?
Good article, especially about fans and closed sequels. I keep hearing people harping on about games they want sequels to that absolutely don't need one. For example, I hear people saying they want a sequel to Shadow of the Colossus made. No, no you don't. It would destroy the complete arc that the game has, and would only function to shed too much light on a world which was intriguing in large part because we knew so little about it.
I can think of one good example of a sequel staring the same main character, Shadow Hearts and Shadow Hearts: Covenant.
The first game canonically ends without any hint of a sequel by killing off two major characters for good and concluding in a way that's both heartwarming and offers quite a bit of closure. The second game uses the same protagonist, but takes place a few years in the future and introduces a brand new cast with a plot that ties into the events of the original. The sequel is superior to the original in every way, and tells a far more compelling and involved story than it's predecessor.
Although, it's doubtful that Yahtzee has even heard of the series since it's a niche JRPG that's not very well known even among JRPG fans...
The first game canonically ends without any hint of a sequel by killing off two major characters for good and concluding in a way that's both heartwarming and offers quite a bit of closure. The second game uses the same protagonist, but takes place a few years in the future and introduces a brand new cast with a plot that ties into the events of the original. The sequel is superior to the original in every way, and tells a far more compelling and involved story than it's predecessor.
Although, it's doubtful that Yahtzee has even heard of the series since it's a niche JRPG that's not very well known even among JRPG fans...