Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

[PrototypeC]

I am actually surprised how sad I am to discover that so many of you are still wailing about this. Will Yahtzee have to explain, in detail, every last bit of 40k "lore" that he has been exposed to before you stop calling him uninformed?

Will you be seriously satisfied if next week he comes back and says, "ooh, well, you know, I am clearly an ignorant bastard and thank god that there are those noble men and women who beheld my ignorant hate speech for what it was and deigned to educate me. I see now that I was wrong, and that the Eldar are not space elves but a totally original idea, and that Spehss Mahreens are as noble and valorous as bald eagle shit, and that oversized chainsaws and huge compensatory shoulderpads are both wicked and badass. I will now step down from the internet and let you glorious wunderkinds take over my show"?

OK, OK, that level of sarcasm might be more than adequate. Still, do you see where I'm coming from at all? It is an opinion piece, with more than a hint of troll nutmeg. It is Yahtzee's god-given right to make game developers cry, so why are you so upset that he's stated that he doesn't like something you like? Nobody who previously enjoyed WH40k is going to read this and decide that Yahtzee knows best and throw all their models and Horus Heresy books down a flight of stairs. Just... I don't know, accept that 40k might not be perfect and enjoy it anyway. Please?

 

[NestorES]

Jetpacks and big-ass smash hammers!!! Nuff said.

 

[Zarkov]

Hm, I don't think Yahtzee is really familiar with W40K universe. I would agree that game somewhat assumes that player is familiar with the setting and already knows in details who are Ultramarines, what's a Weirdboy etc.
Thing is, it's a good W40K game. Now, it's all depends on your angle on W40K, but it's good at what it does.
Also, it has Ultramarines. The most boring, dull, emotionless Space Marines of all. I was actually surprised just how much emotion they show in game.

Enjoyed this game a lot and still enjoying it now. Multiplayer is fun, let's you play as Chaos.
Ultimately how good this game is is determined by your love W40K and your opinion on Ultrasmurfs.. I mean, Ultramarines.
Honestly, they should have used Space Wolves... Or maybe Chaos marines, something less bland than Ultrasmurfs.

This. I don't read Yahtzee's stuff for a good well balanced opinion, but Yahtzee really didn't have a good enough knowing of the background to make the criticism that he did.

Ah well, I love Space Marine all the more, and THQ did a really good job at making the Warhammer 40K universe come alive.

 

[Zarkov]

I just had a flash of a 40k version of Osmosis Jones; Orkmosis Gobz. Going on inside a Warboss' body, the villian being the implanted cells of a Genestealer Kiss.

You win, take all of my internets good sir

 

[Velocir_X]

I read about half of the thread and it gave me aa massive urge to throw my two cents in. Prepare for much TL;DR.

Anyways I became interested in Warhammer after playing Dawn of War (an awesome game in its own right). As such my original point of entry were the Speeusssh Marines, though DoW's Blood Raven chapter was certainly more endearing than Space Marines's Ultrasmurfs the world seemed bland and it took a backseat to the fantastic RTS. Then I caught wind of the Army Painter and boy did that pique my interest. What are all these pre-designed color schemes? Do they mean anything? But before the reasearch even began I settled on the Space Wolves for some (pretty vain)reasons.

Many long nights of scourging the lexicanum and lurking on /tg/ have completely changed my views about the Universe of 40K and its factions, though I still do love the Space Wolves for the delicious unorthodoxy and their hatred of the inquisition. (Also see: Reasonable Marines) I now openly serve the ruinous powers of the warp and proclaim "Death to the False Emporer!" at the top of my lungs, but not the reasons most would. Chaos isn't a bunch of heretic psychopaths for me. There are perfectly reasonable motivations behind those who join the legions of chaos, and the moral duality, uncertainty, of that faction is fascinating to me. Chaos isn't just the crazies, no, chaos is the military veteran focused on his skill and honor in battle (Khorne), the artist who wants to perfect his craft (Slanesh), the politician who wants to convince his electorate to change for the better (Tznetch), or the old mentor who wishes to remain and nurture the next generation with wisdom (Nurgle). And while its quite hyperbolic and often presented as evil, the lures and trappings of chaos are very much an effective analogue for much of our own ambition, and in many ways can be seen as the "good" faction - the one that wants us to transcend our limitations. These are the characters I like to play when roleplaying in the WH40K universe and in no way are they juvenile or a masculine-power fantasy. In case of battle, however, I do always have a Thousands Sons character (funny Space Wolves and Thousand Sons are sworn enemies and my favorite chapters); I like the legion for its use of guile and diplomacy (Again, see: Reasonable Marines), and its my guilty pleasure I too can have moments of juvenility and fanatic opposition to the False Emporer!

(Fun fact: I continue to play Space Wolves in DoW because: a)the Chaos faction in the game epitomizes the aspects of chaos I dislike and b)Chaos Space marines in DoW don't play the way my Thousands Sons do, and no paint job'll fix that)

For of you who made it through the dissertation here's a cookie:
Who needs GW when you can make these kinds of minatures?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerac/5164163964/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerac/5863679957/in/photostream
(Not Mine)

 

[Weskerbot3000]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! YAHTZEE DOESN'T LIKE SOMETHING, more details at eleven

 

[Eric Staples]

What are these diligent correspondents talking about? Resistance 1 totally had regenerating health. It used a health bar system, where each health bar regenerated only the damage it took. It was the same health system we saw in the Chronicles of Riddick games. And while I really liked it for that stealth game, I feel it was possibly the worst option for an action packed FPS.

At least in a typical regenerating health FPS, you can take quite a few hits before needing to hide. With the regenerating health bars, you can only take a hit or two before needing to hide, otherwise you lose the bar altogether. The only time you can you can take quite a few hits and not worry is when you know or feel that there should be health kits lying around on the ground. Although, when you died, you would start back at your last checkpoint with full health, so the health system wasn't a problem or anything.

In any case, even in one of the cutscenes for R1, the lady said that when she saw the bullet holes in Hale's shirt, she knew he had gained the Chimeran's regenerative ability. So it wasn't even a gameplay mechanic, he really had regenerating health.

 

[Beetlebum]

yeah, Warhammer is serious business. There is nothing comedic and over the top about it.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

It is Yahtzee's god-given right to make game developers cry, so why are you so upset that he's stated that he doesn't like something you like? Nobody who previously enjoyed WH40k is going to read this and decide that Yahtzee knows best and throw all their models and Horus Heresy books down a flight of stairs.

I don't think anyone actually cares whether or not Yahtzee enjoys or totally loathes Warhammer 40,000, what rankles is he seems to dismiss it based on silly reasons. Which is his prerogative of course, but as someone with a bully pulpit his opinion is being used to reinforce or even entirely form the opinions of others on the subject.

And since it's pretty clear he doesn't actually know much about the setting and is just dismissing it for superficial reasons like most of the people complaining about 40K on the interwebs, readers who don't know any better are liable to treat his silly and misguided dismissal of the setting as valid. This is what we'd like to hopefully prevent, as much as possible.

Do you have to like Warhammer 40k? Of course not! The aesthetics might not appeal, the themes may be too depressing, you just can't take it seriously because it has chainsaw swords in it, take your pick; you don't even need a firm reason to not like something, if it doesn't resonate it doesn't resonate, and as a fan of 40K I'm perfectly fine with that. If the reason you don't like it though is based on something that isn't true, or something you are taking wildly out of context or otherwise mistakenly applying across the board, who is to say if you actually dislike 40K when you've demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about? If you go on to influence other people through your misguided dislike, how can we know if they'd come to the same conclusions if they were shown a more accurate presentation of the setting instead of your distorted one?

That is my major gripe with this particular rant - I don't really give a toss if anyone loves or loathes 40K, each to his or her own, but it would be a shame if someone out there who would actually enjoy the setting took Yahtzee's word on the subject as gospel and dismissed it out of hand, for a bunch of silly reasons.

 

[ReverendJ]

Not that anybody's still reading this thread down the line, but...

I loves da 40k, I have 6k of orks here in the house. That said... he's right. Damn him, he's right. Perhaps I wouldn't be so harsh on the setting, but that's me being amused by aggression. (One of the reasons I like Yahtzee, actually.) That said, though, yeah, we probably didn't another GoW clone, and Space Marines ARE the most boring kind of male-power fantasy.

Just my two cents.

 

[Frank Han]

I disagree with yahztee on his basis view of warhammer 40k just because he think the whole religious marine thing is dumb(Emperor against religion until he die and after a 10000 years).
If there's something I dislike about the warhammer 40, it would be.
-overprice figure.
-MATT WARD(an ultramarine fanboy and a story fucker)
-the bad ultrasmurf movie.
-hasn't extend the storyline due to gameworkshop's greedy decision.

 

[Abbo]

I liked spacemarine as a game, dealing with the bigger hordes of melee orks was fun and hectic on the hardest difficulty level, taking them headon in the bigger waves is suicide as Yathzee said.
Finding ways to weaken them enough in the short time before they force you into melee was half the fun in the game. Trying to avoid the fire line of or killing a shoota boy that deals pretty consistent damage while surrounded by a angry mob was the other half.
Too bad the campaign lasted that short.
Haven't tried online yet.

 

[Kahunaburger]

HERESY! PURGE THE THREAD NECROMANCER!

OT: I like how 90% of the people in this thread seem to think that the 40K universe is srs bsns. The universe that features space orcs. That paint their cars red so they can go faster. And it works.

 

[Abbo]

Oh crap, this is part of the forums? I thought article replies and the forum were separate.

No, i am aware that the 40k setting is retarded but i love it anyway.... I was more disappointed in him not finding some of the refreshing stuff in the gameplay.... because i did not get the feeling in game that i was dealing with generic shooter #5432. I don't play shooters unless they add something new into the mix (like Vanquisches speed and style)


Spacemarine caught my attention because of the 40k license AND because of the developer being Relic... but only after i tested the demo and liking what i saw i bought it.
Of course the game has it's weaknesses(melee feels really sluggish and does not give a sense of real control) but it actually felt fresh in me finding tactical ways to deal with the really big range fire supported Ork melee waves on hardest.
When the campaign was done i was not happy because i wanted more of the gameplay.

 

[TheUnbeholden]

Why are any of your surprised the skinny nerdy man who loves fantasy, wears a stupid hat, and has a pretentious beard doesn't like military fiction?

aside from the fact that Warhammer 40K has about as much in common with real military non-fiction as a child does with it... I can't imagine. Seriously Military fiction can be done well if had some fucking realism.

This sounded particularly venemous towards WHK40. I dont like any of it either and will ignore it wherever possibly. Bloody hell though that was a harsh review =P.

Also Gears of War 3 is hands down my game of the year so far.

It wasn't even out yet and you call it your 'game of the year'. Thank fuck some of the people around the internet aren't in charge of anything important otherwise the whole fucking human society would come tumbling down.

Really disappointed , normally enjoy his stuff, but almost felt some of the comments were plain stupid and even ignorant, how someone can dismiss an entire universe of books, articles, 1000's an 1000's of hours of back ground with out even experiencing even a fraction of it just seems lazy.

Did he say that he didn't experience a fraction of it? Because your jumping to conclusions.. you think his opinion is uninformed? Because theres no way he would fucking talk about the series if he hasn't had a good look at it.

 

[Eipok Kruden]

There's no one to side with. Space Marines are battle-crazed fanatics. Chaos is hell. Orks are well... orks. Tyranids are insectoid monsters. Eldar would exterminate mankind without a second thought if they could. Tau are space communists. Imperial Guard are part of the aforementioned fascist theocratic space empire. Cultists are either alien or chaos mad. Necrons are space-undead-robot-gods or some shit.

Well, there's a few flaws with that summary. First, Space Marines are more like Warrior Monks. If anyone are battle-crazed fanatics, it'd be the Khornate Berserkers.

The Orks don't really have any beef with humanity, either. They just smash and loot and WAAAGH!!, but they'll do that to anyone (including themselves), and it's possible even for their interests to align (albeit temporarily) with humanity's.

The Eldar don't have anything against humanity, per se, either. If they were confronted by something like space liberals, they'd get along just fine. All they have a problem with is the Imperium's militaristic, overly dogmatic, and destructive attitude, as well as its propensity for being torn apart from within by Chaos.

The Tau are... Well, yea, space communists. I quite honestly don't see how that's a bad thing, though. They seem to do it pretty damn well. The main issue with communism is that power corrupts, and corrupt people seek power. The role of leader has to be seen as a civil service, something to be done for the people, and for the society as a whole. Historically, that hasn't happened often, and instead corrupt despots and tyrants end up in power. With the Tau, though, the Ethereals seem to be doing a bang-up job, if you ask me.

The Tyranids, of course, are just hive-minded insectoid parasites, but the higher up and more important a form is in the synapse tree, the more individuality it is awarded, with some breeds like genestealers even capable of full autonomy.

As for Chaos... Well, Chaos can come in many varying types and degrees. The most dangerous and unquestionably evil would likely be Khorne, as anything that instills a propensity towards liberating people's skulls from their bodies can be seen as a bad thing by most accounts. The other three Gods can be followed far more peaceably, though. With Slaanesh, it's just about sensation. Say you've got an Imperial businessman who's secretly a Slaaneshi cultist, but all he really does is dedicate his various sensory acts (be it sadomasochistic sex or just the taste of a fine wine) to Slaanesh. With Tzeentch, it's about knowledge, change, and magic. Again, this can be handled in many degrees, and can be relatively harmless, though it does have a tendency to explode and tear apart the fabric of reality... Lastly, of course, is Nurgle, who covers everything from life to death, from mortality and entropy to immortality, from hope to fear, even love and compassion and family values are covered under his vast rusty umbrella.

To be quite honest, I actually see myself as something of a Child of Grandfather Nurgle. He's way better than the God of the Bible, anyway. If I had to have some kind of God, it'd definitely be Nurgle.

I always thought the emperor should be more like a space-pope. Then there could be multiple human kingdoms/federations/confederacies/compacts.

But no, any difference will be purged by a bunch of insane fanatical jihadist. Bah.

Do you really think so lowly of the Emperor? Comparing him to the Pope, of all people? What an insult. Besides that, though, what does the Emperor have to do with anything anyway? He's on the Golden Throne. As far as I can tell, the "God Emperor" is just the Warp-borne manifestation of the collective will of humanity through the Emperor's subconscious. He's not the one calling any of the shots, though. That would be the High Lords of Terra and the Ecclesiarchy.

 

[ACman]

snippity snip.

Yep. The emperor should be "Space Pope".

Space Marines should be Warrior Knights like the (real life) Templars and Hospitaller. Sworn to fight the threats to humanity not humanity itself. (Though they could and would)

And there should be factions of humanity that act like "Space Europe" so I can have "Space Game of Thrones".