Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Well in Yahtzee's defense some of those larger figures would really hurt if you got beaned with one. An ork nob in 'eavy armor would really sting if you threw it with a bit of force.Mouse One said:Meet Kaptin Bluddflagg from Retribution. YAAAAAAAAR, I mean, WAAAAAAAAAAGH!
[http://dow.wikia.com/index.php?title=Kaptin_Bluddflagg&image=Retri_ork_camp_heroes_01-jpg]
I dunno, sounds like Yahtzee got beat up by one too many Warhammer fans in his youth. I mean, really, it's SUPPOSED to be exaggerated and over the top. Now, there are some emo fans out there who like to natter on about the philosophical meaning of the Horus Heresy and all that, but really, it's more than a little bit satirical.
So what you're saying is that these things exist but do not exist for the purposes of the game . The only reference to pirates I can come up with refer to Fallen Dark Angels, Chaos or dark eldar. And weren't you the guy who told me that only the Imperium had ships?nyysjan said:
And if a reformation has occured does it have a sphere of influence? Where is it? Who controls it?
And Enlightenment doesn't really happen when the state is still a theocracy. That's by definition the point of an enlightenment.
I am talking about humans.Major Tom said:
I don't care about orks pirates/eldar pirates/space marine pirates/chaos pirates.
I am talking about human pirates within human space.
I am talking about fractional separation in government; not within the inquisition, not between unrelated planets, not hive/desert/jungle/factory/death world differences but differences between regions of space that form say trading blocks or defensive coalitions or mini-empires/kindoms who might(would!) have rivalries between each other.
Sorry I've been discussing this with multiple people.Major Tom said:
Previously I guess I've been arguing for some granularity in imperial influence. Defined regions/factions where Ecclesiarchy wanes and Administratum dominates or vice versa... Or where some third party rises over them that isn't chaos/xenos/tau/c'tan/spagetti monster of doom.
And pirates and smugglers and bounty hunters, oh my!
Pirates do crop up. Rogue military, rogue traders gone bad or skirting the edge of the law, corporations and other such large organisations doing dodgy stuff, groups that get declared renegades or heretics for whatever reason, human factions from outside the Imperium. Same with planetary systems and the nobility, they all compete and occasionally war with each other. Revolutions happen and as long as they stay within imperial law the Imperium leaves it be, it's just a minor local issue. All this stuff happens, it just isn't within the scope of the main wargame. The RPG's Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader give much more in depth and believable view of 40K, I still don't like the general direction the game has gone but they help.ACman said:
EDIT:
I also agree with you on the point about Imperial propaganda. The idea that only the current system can keep humanity from falling into ruin is just the imperial line. Yes chaos exists as a threat, as do the orks and eldar, however that a system as backwards and retarded as the Imperium could survive for 10,000 years against them leads me to believe they are not as great a threat as is made out.
One major point about 40K is that the "Truth" is very hard to discern. The majority of things that you read about could well be propaganda, or just wrong because the in universe source is a clueless muppet. Bits of fluff are often marked heretical or hinted to be a bit of chaos trickery or what have you, and really they could be any shade of true/false. It is all a fictional universe and is therefore open to interpretation by the reader. Having started with Rogue Trader in 1987 my view of the 40K universe is going to be different from someone who has just got into the fluff in the past 5 years. A lot of things really don't make sense or the given explanations ring very hollow and untrue. For example I just don't get how the mechanicus got hit with the stupid stick post heresy. Beforehand the whole of humanity was on a massive wave of scientific redicovery, then BAM suddenly they don't understand how it all works and the Imperium stagnates. I can sort see how they can keep humanity as whole largely ignorant of high technology, but not the Mechanicus themselves.
Yes there is some scope in the fluff but it's implied that the imperium is uniform and monolithic.Major Tom said:
I know the fluff is written from the point of view of imperium propaganda/reports to the inquisistion., but there could be more of:
"the tetrach quadrant has fallen under the influence of the Duke Felemar. While he is of no immediate threat to the imperium his power is great enough that detente rather than escalation is prefered in these circumstances"
Let's face it if some lame-ass anime race like the tau can seize an area of space then there should be a human prince that can pull off the same trick.
I've actually got the exact opposite gripe; it seems like the vast majority of the 40k books are Imperials vs Seperationists, Cultists, Chaos SMurfs (and cultists). Even when there's Tyranids involved it's usually mostly rooting out Genestealer cultists despite the fact that they haven't been a playable faction in what? Fifteen years? It's got a minagerie of Xenos, but with the occasional exception it's Human vs Human violence, and less than a half dozen books are Xenos vs Xenos, and even then it's Eldar, which are damn close. Hell, Firewarrior was Tau vs friggin human cultists.ACman said:
There's allusion to epic fights like Mugen Ra vs an entire damn Tyranid Splinter Fleet, or the battle on some insignificant agri-world in the Octavius system between the Orks and the Tyranids because the fertile soil let both xenos breeds reproduce so quickly; a war on every scale from the microscopic (Ork spores vs Tyrannic phages) to the gargantuan (Gargants vs bio-titans).
I just had a flash of a 40k version of Osmosis Jones; Orkmosis Gobz. Going on inside a Warboss' body, the villian being the implanted cells of a Genestealer Kiss.
If they did want to make another human faction they already have something in the mythology to cover it. Warp storms can leave sectors of space cut off for centuries at the time.
Well, I just beat the game and I enjoyed playing it. The combat was fluid and the balance between ranged and melee was good, switching between them felt natural - better than even god-of-war 3, that and I liked Captain Titus as a protagonist and want to see more of his story. The ending set up a sequel nicely and I'll be buying it if one comes out. Especially if they can fix the main issues - i.e. repetitive enemies, excessive linearity and lame end boss.
TL/DR: Good game mechanics, ok story, poor level design (imo)
TL/DR: Good game mechanics, ok story, poor level design (imo)
I know you'll never do a review of a RTS, but in case you ever do - check you a game called Dawn of War. Warhammer 40K setting, excellent & addictive gameplay. Was a staple diet at any LAN party for ages. I still pick it up from time to time for the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!
Because the Eldar told the Ethereals to do it, the Eldar has been manipulating the Tau from the day they walked into their merry genocidal war of extinction. Since then the Tau was made to become the poster race for recruiting any race who wants unity at the cost of secretly being manipulated by the Eldar.
source was from Xenology.[/quote]
That just Brings me to my next question... why would the Eldar want that? what's killing a few million human's to them? why do they need to manipulate the Tau into doing that when they can manipulate ork Waaagh's (which are far more effective by the way.)
(the only reason I can think of is that they want the Imperium to start a war against the Tau to wipe them out. but that just raises the question why they don't just let the orks do that.)
source was from Xenology.[/quote]
That just Brings me to my next question... why would the Eldar want that? what's killing a few million human's to them? why do they need to manipulate the Tau into doing that when they can manipulate ork Waaagh's (which are far more effective by the way.)
(the only reason I can think of is that they want the Imperium to start a war against the Tau to wipe them out. but that just raises the question why they don't just let the orks do that.)
I never liked the plotlines that much. But then again I do play Tyranids and Necrons. The 2 armies with absolutely no personal background whatsoever.
The Necrons no so much, there's always sort of vague backstory to where they came from and such. But with Tyranids, they have nothing to say where they come from except 'somewhere when no-one's gone before (or at least come back from).' Their entire plot is told by the people they face, popping into existence in their first battle, going away when they were defeated, then coming back again. And that's all.
I don't really like the video games that much though. They're just not as satisfying as sitting down for a few days posing, glueing and painting each individual model then setting everything up and gazing at your 'empire' against someone else's.
But that's all of the fun in it, I'm willing to forgive the generic "War, war, war, war, wrarw, arwarw, and more war!" (Or if they're feeling really different; "Man killed other man/alien/different kind of alien, thus single handedly saved his unit from stuff.") plotline for the rest of the hobby.
The only plotlines I have read are the ones which were in the rule books on how to play.
The Necrons no so much, there's always sort of vague backstory to where they came from and such. But with Tyranids, they have nothing to say where they come from except 'somewhere when no-one's gone before (or at least come back from).' Their entire plot is told by the people they face, popping into existence in their first battle, going away when they were defeated, then coming back again. And that's all.
I don't really like the video games that much though. They're just not as satisfying as sitting down for a few days posing, glueing and painting each individual model then setting everything up and gazing at your 'empire' against someone else's.
But that's all of the fun in it, I'm willing to forgive the generic "War, war, war, war, wrarw, arwarw, and more war!" (Or if they're feeling really different; "Man killed other man/alien/different kind of alien, thus single handedly saved his unit from stuff.") plotline for the rest of the hobby.
The only plotlines I have read are the ones which were in the rule books on how to play.
I think the one problem with this entry is the combination of blind hatred with a hefty dose of ignorance. How can you hate a setting you don't know shit about? If it's not your bag, that's fine. But it feels more like you read a two-sentence summary and based your opinion off that.
But I think your biggest sin is this: It wasn't Warhammer 40,000 that created the Space Marine craze (they just hold the trademark on the name), but Aliens (and by extension, Doom and Quake).
But I think your biggest sin is this: It wasn't Warhammer 40,000 that created the Space Marine craze (they just hold the trademark on the name), but Aliens (and by extension, Doom and Quake).