Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

[Worgen]

I like how Space Marine is a big dumb game with a setting that expects to be taken seriously. But yeah, the characters in their freaking RTS games have more depth than the guys in this one. Though I do like how at least the RTS games aren't trying to push modern day morals onto you despite being set in a world where that would be completely absurd. Unlike the trite we're used to from Hollywood where they still put black people into equal roles when making a movie about a time period where racism ruled supreme and the main characters are always so enlightened that they are neither racist nor sexist.

I prefer seeing no emotional response to something like Cole Train from Gears. That guy is like Jar Jar to me.

I think the most interesting thing they could do with Cole Train is to make him gay, just casually mention his husband someplace in gears 3 and leave the rest up to the imagination. But yeah Cole bugs me also, hes so in your face and annoying and treats a "serious" situation like a football game. At least Baird is sarcastic as hell about things which makes more sense.

 

[Iron Mal]

I honestly like the 40k setting for the same reason that I like Judge Dredd, yes, it's a horrible place that no-one in their right mind would want to be in but that's part of what makes it entertaining, because it's so horrifically over the top it means that it can be absolutely hilarious at times, massively epic at others and allows itself enough openness for anyone to essentially ad-lib their own sub-plots in (if in doubt, invent a solar system/planet, gives you free reign to come up with whatever backstory you please) which is vital for a hobby which is largely centred in the imagination and creativity of it's fans.

I have a hunch that Yahtzee's ire towards the space marines of Warhammer 40k may be somewhat unjustified because, well, they are very different from the other generic, grizzled US Marine Corps wannabe types that inhabit many other sci-fi shooters (try as you might the only real similarity you'll find between CoG from Gears of War and the Adeptus Astartes is the fact that both happen to be made up of large, muscular men in power armour, and even then there are a lot of little details that seperate those facts) and his claim of the setting being inherantly ridiculous is on one hand completely missing the point and on the other based on a rather flimsy premise.

I've already addressed as to why this is missing the point before (everything in Warhammer is taken to almost humourous extremes, of course it's ridiculous, you could argue that it's intentionally ridiculous) but as for why I believe it's a flimsy premise, he argues that the setting is ridiculous based on stuff like it being 'the grim darkness of the future and there is only war' being impossible, that would be fine if it weren't for the fact that most games set in fantasy or sci-fi settings out there have just as (if not even more so) ridiculous aspects to them that we're more often than not willing to let slide.

To form an example from a series that Yahtzee is fond of let's take Half Life 2 (and no, I'm not going to go into detail about how theoretically the Gravity Gun would actually be more of a ball-and-chain than a useful addition to your inventory, I shall save that for another day), I'm just gonna be blunt about something that is mentioned often in Half Life 2 and the episodes, the suppression field. A mysterious 'field/signal' that in some unexplained way not only inhibits our ability to reproduce but also apparantly kills everyone's urge to have sex.

I repeat, we have a mysterious piece of technology who's only sole purpose is to keep people from rocking the Casbah and yet for many people this was completely fine and didn't break their immersion or appreciation of the setting.

If you're gonna be cynical and snarky enough to call out a setting for technicalities like 'why would you bother with super soldiers?' or 'how would endless warfare work anyway?' then surely you'd be facing the same problem with your suspension of disbelief being shattered by every fantastic or outlandish concept or cencept present in the vast genres of Sci-Fi or Fantasy (least of all an anti-fucking field).

 

[Versuvius]

Anybody who can't find a niche in the universe, be it the footslogging Imperial Guard, the batshit insanity of the Chaos Legions, the Omnicidal Pubcrawl of the orks really either doesn't quite grasp theres more behind what you just see in games like DoW or more recently Space Marine or are going out of their way to dislike it with strawman arguments. 40,000 years into the future and a million controlled words, they can piss resources up the wall be it in mineral, fuel or manpower because theres plenty more where it came from.

Plenty more reasons and my raging fanboy hardon is demanding i explain very carefully why outright hating it makes you a fool, but the other side of my brain cannot be arsed. So im going to Abandon Thread.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

You have your very very odd opinions and I have mine. I prefer to like things so, there you go.

Its not that odd of an opinion.

"I prefer to like things so, there you go." And what does that even mean? You like things purely because you dislike disliking them?

No, it's more that I go into everything [i/]trying[/i] to like it and then I only dislike thing if they have some extremely negative quality about them.

Good until proven bad is my theory.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I has always bothered me that the 40k universe is essentially a massive fascist theocracy where any sort of departure from the dogma of the state is eliminated with extreme prejudice.

There's no one to side with. Space Marines are battle-crazed fanatics. Chaos is hell. Orks are well... orks. Tyranids are insectoid monsters. Eldar would exterminate mankind without a second thought if they could. Tau are space communists. Imperial Guard are part of the aforementioned fascist theocratic space empire. Cultists are either alien or chaos mad. Necrons are space-undead-robot-gods or some shit.

I always thought the emperor should be more like a space-pope. Then there could be multiple human kingdoms/federations/confederacies/compacts.

But no, any difference will be purged by a bunch of insane fanatical jihadist. Bah.

Um...that was the whole point? To get away from those Star Trek style utopian settings in a big way. One reason I absolutely hated the introduction of the Tau.

What I couldn't ever understand is why those huge imaginary table-top army clashes were ever considered possible or even desireable. Since the invention of the rifle it's been bad form to mass troops and advance in large numbers. It's just too easy to put too much explosive power in a targeted area for the opponent to survive. So it's all about small unit tactics and staying out of sight and behind cover. The only reason human waves worked a little in North Korea was that they were HUMAN so tactical nukes weren't used. No such problem with Orks.

That was something I brought up again and again on the BL forums before I was banned. A decent author would come up for a good reason for not doing this...usually the place was valuable and they didn't want to wreck it with bombs if they could avoid it.

A bad author (which become the majority) wouldn't care, because the fans would think he was brilliant anyway. I remember people seriously saying McNeill should be a general, because he put lots of effort describing military tactics in Storm of Iron, regardless of the fact they would completely fail in the enemy wasn't similarly useless (mind you, he did a good job trying to avoid rubbing the reader's face in that).

 

[ckam]

You want manly, people?

I'm going to tell you something important now, so you better dig the wax out of those huge ears of yours and listen! The reputation of Team Gurren echoes far and wide. When they talk about its badass leader, the man of indomitable spirit and masculinity, they're talking about me! The mighty Kamina!

 

[wyrmslayer1991]

Personally, I've always been considerably more interested in the fantasy warhammer world. Space is just too big you know? When you've got fifteen fully developed races that are completely different in either appearance, ideology, goals, or, usually, all three, and you cram them all onto one single world, you KNOW there's gonna be fisties occasionally, and you'd be surprised if there weren't. You take 14 completely developed races and spread them across the vast infinite reaches of space, and you say, "is that it?" six of them are human, and five (5!?) of those human armies are all the SAME. BLOODY. SPACE MARINE.

It all means more too. A battle taking place on the fringes of a race's territory means a lot more if that fringe is only a few hundred miles away, and not the other side of the fucking galaxy. The High Elves, Dwarfs, and other dying races are ACTUALLY dying. The elves being relegated to an island and the dwarfs a couple of underground cities. Then you look at the Eldar, the 40k ripoff of elves, and their "dying" race? Has PLANETS. Not even A planet, planetS. Boo-fuckin-hoo. You lose an eldar, there are still a billion more. Maybe not as many billions as there are orcs or tyranids or any of the other races with just as retarded numbers, but when people die in fantasy, it matters just a bit more. A single city is taken from one race by another and now the story's drastically been changed. A whole planet gets blown up in 40k? big deal, just pull another one outta your ass.

 

[Zhukov]

Heh.

If anyone needs me, I shall be over here basking in the warm glow of confirmation.

Remember when the good Mr. Yhatzee said not to let his opinion be your guide to what you do and do not play? Know all of those good reviews about the game, The Cynical Brit loving it and such? Yeah. Those. So you can go bask in your own cloud of smug farts while everyone else has a riot.

Ohhh, someone sounds a bit sore.

Anyway, I don't think you quite understand the meaning of "confirmation". In this context it means encountering an opinion that matches my own.

I played the game. I was utterly unimpressed. A riot was not had. I'm glad I borrowed my housemate's copy instead of buying my own.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

As a game system tabletop 40k SUCKS. I haven't played since 3rd? edition where they streamlined a lot of the more fun aspects out of it. The stupid rule written everywhere "you have to buy what you play" is such blatant money grubbing I'm surprised nobody revolted.

But it keeps severely autistic people away from the general population and hunched over a magnifying glass painting little plastic dudes, so 40k has that going for it. I tried man but I'm not that patient. I just sprayed them black, put on yellow blotchs and said "battle damage!"

The high point of 40k isn't the story or the game. It is a contrived setup for artists to show off detailed war pictures that won't have nerds whinging "thats not realistic!" Of course it isn't realistic, its Space Nuns battling BSDM Dark Elves or Space Marine Bikers fighting Terminators.

Also the setting produced one of the greatest turn based strategy games ever conceived, Chaos Gate. Gameplay wise it is better than Xcom. Its 15 years old and used copies still sell for $30.

[image src="http://img.informer.com/wiki/mediawiki/images/8/81/ChaosGate.jpg"]

 

[MonkeyPunch]

Hmm... seems like Yahtzee is OK with the run-on-the mill "seen it a million times" Medieval Fantasy which has arguably been churned out more times and in more media, yet space Marines are retarded and over-used... seems odd.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

That's why I disregard the Space Marines and focus on the Imperial Guard. The modern day infantry fighting against space gods.

 

[CopperBoom]

Any excuse made for justifying W40k's story sounds like a bit of a wank rationalisation.

 

[Versuvius]

A more diplomatic argument to this thread it occurs to me, would be to suggest people stop bashing a whole universe based on one game. It would be like telling everyone you hate DnD because 4ed is abysmal or because Daggerdale is a buggy mess. It makes absolutely no sense. Alternatively you could claim to dislike the whole high fantasy setting due to Torchlights hack and slash loot oriented gameplay (Loved it anyway). It smacks of gloriously huge overgeneralisation on the part of people and Yhatzee himself.

I forgot my hat by the way, abandoning imminent.

 

[Albino Boo]

I honestly like the 40k setting for the same reason that I like Judge Dredd, yes, it's a horrible place that no-one in their right mind would want to be in but that's part of what makes it entertaining, because it's so horrifically over the top it means that it can be absolutely hilarious at times, massively epic at others and allows itself enough openness for anyone to essentially ad-lib their own sub-plots in (if in doubt, invent a solar system/planet, gives you free reign to come up with whatever backstory you please) which is vital for a hobby which is largely centred in the imagination and creativity of it's fans.

Oddly enough the 40K setting is largely borrowed from another 2000AD strip, Nemesis the Warlock. They depoliticized the setting a lot, the original contained digs at the catholic church (ever wondered why the marines called each other brother), Margaret Thatcher and apartheid era South Africa. The fascist nature of the human empire was far more explicit. The leader of the empire, Tomas de Torquemada, favourite saying was BE PURE, BE VIGILANT, BEHAVE. Many of the artist who worked for 2000 AD at the time also worked for games workshop. In some cases (Carl Critchlow and Bryan Talbot) they worked on the art for 2000AD and for warhammer 40k

 

[flaming_squirrel]

What I couldn't ever understand is why those huge imaginary table-top army clashes were ever considered possible or even desireable. Since the invention of the rifle it's been bad form to mass troops and advance in large numbers. It's just too easy to put too much explosive power in a targeted area for the opponent to survive. So it's all about small unit tactics and staying out of sight and behind cover. The only reason human waves worked a little in North Korea was that they were HUMAN so tactical nukes weren't used. No such problem with Orks.

It's all just unrealistic bull that only the most juvenile middle-schooler would find engaging.

WW1 would like to say Hi...


But what's this, a fantasy world which is not realistic?!?! HOW DARE THEY!

Also the setting produced one of the greatest turn based strategy games ever conceived, Chaos Gate. Gameplay wise it is better than Xcom. Its 15 years old and used copies still sell for $30.

Seriously? That buggy barely functional crap which had horrible LoS mechanics?
To give it it's due the game itself wasnt bad, just broken.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Spoiler: snip

Personally, I've always been considerably more interested in the fantasy warhammer world. Space is just too big you know? When you've got fifteen fully developed races that are completely different in either appearance, ideology, goals, or, usually, all three, and you cram them all onto one single world, you KNOW there's gonna be fisties occasionally, and you'd be surprised if there weren't. You take 14 completely developed races and spread them across the vast infinite reaches of space, and you say, "is that it?" six of them are human, and five (5!?) of those human armies are all the SAME. BLOODY. SPACE MARINE.

It all means more too. A battle taking place on the fringes of a race's territory means a lot more if that fringe is only a few hundred miles away, and not the other side of the fucking galaxy. The High Elves, Dwarfs, and other dying races are ACTUALLY dying. The elves being relegated to an island and the dwarfs a couple of underground cities. Then you look at the Eldar, the 40k ripoff of elves, and their "dying" race? Has PLANETS. Not even A planet, planetS. Boo-fuckin-hoo. You lose an eldar, there are still a billion more. Maybe not as many billions as there are orcs or tyranids or any of the other races with just as retarded numbers, but when people die in fantasy, it matters just a bit more. A single city is taken from one race by another and now the story's drastically been changed. A whole planet gets blown up in 40k? big deal, just pull another one outta your ass.

Actually, I liked 40k for the opposite reason. WHFB seemed too small...especially as the status quo must not be changed, you can't find places to fight over where the outcome could really be in dobut, in 40k there's plenty of room for (admittedly equally meaningless) conflicts.

 

[Princess Rose]

I have always hated Warhammer 40k. The setting is absolute shite on a cracker - which makes sense, since it was written as a parody originally. Why people started to take this crap seriously, I shall never know.

Thank you, Yahtzee. Now, whenever anyone asks me what I think of 40k, I can point them to this issue of Extra Punctuation.

Also - never knew you played AD&D too. ^^ That's also where I got my start. I'm a Pathfinder girl now (with occasional bouts of 4th Ed) but I have long had a fondness for the old 2E game.

 

[repeating integers]

Gears of War had about zero back-story (not even in the pathetically thin user's guide). But it never pretended to. It was just stupid big muscle-dudes with no helmets shooting bad stuff from behind cover.

What bugs me about WH40K is that it PRETENDS to have a back-story but doesn't really. There's just no real explanation of motivations, economy, politics, etc. And from the extremely limited story that is there, these other levels of detail are rendered impossible. It's just WE KILL THEM, and THEY KILL US. That's it.

What I couldn't ever understand is why those huge imaginary table-top army clashes were ever considered possible or even desireable. Since the invention of the rifle it's been bad form to mass troops and advance in large numbers. It's just too easy to put too much explosive power in a targeted area for the opponent to survive. So it's all about small unit tactics and staying out of sight and behind cover. The only reason human waves worked a little in North Korea was that they were HUMAN so tactical nukes weren't used. No such problem with Orks.

It's all just unrealistic bull that only the most juvenile middle-schooler would find engaging.

Bitterly insulting people who disagree with you? Even Yahtzee didn't do that this time. Aside from this being a sign that the end times are probably on their way, this is not good sign for you.

OT: As much as I disagree... don't you realise there's no point in refuting his arguments, guys? He never, ever reads any of the comments (and if this isn't true, Yahtzee, prove me wrong). It's like arguing with a very angry, cynical brick wall.

 

[Lonely Swordsman]

Hmm... seems like Yahtzee is OK with the run-on-the mill "seen it a million times" Medieval Fantasy which has arguably been churned out more times and in more media, yet space Marines are retarded and over-used... seems odd.

No he isn't. He explicitly railed against it just about everytime he talked about Dragon Age or the Witcher. What videos have you been watching?


Also, while I agree that 40k (and Warhammer Fantasy to a lesser extent) are incredibly idiotic and juvenile, I feel like I have to defend them. Warhammer 40000 was created out of pure hyperbolic satire, military science fiction in the vein of Starship Troopers taken to its ultimate extreme, then decorated in Moorcockian philosophy, gothic imagery and just a big helping of geek iconography in general, with not even a lick of pretense about how ridiculous it was. Hell, in the first edition of Rogue Trader there was a minor NPC called Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau.
Warhammer 40k was a walking parody of itself, but not unlike with certain other British scifi franchises, very few people actually got the joke. And eventually some of the people who took the setting seriously became writers and designers, hence the big, grimdark mess we've got today.