Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

I tend to feel that 40K derivative works don't capitalize on the setting's DOOM reserves.

I always feel that people boasting about the Imperial Guard's superior firepower are missing the point of the Imperial Guard flavor, which is to die horribly to phenomena from every branch of particle physics. And once in a while they manage, against all odds (though not really because of game balance of course), to eke out a victory amidst terrible sacrifices while their officers oppress the shit out of the poor assholes. Their heroism is without meaning if the setting is not only out to get them but actually usually does.

I liked it when the Tau were purely idealistic animu people with tons of hope and tolerance and a forward-thinking attitude towards technology, before all that grimderp mind control and sterilization stuff got written in. Because they were tiny, and if a Waaagh or a Black Crusade or a Hive Fleet so much as farted at them they would be utterly wiped out. They were actual good guys, a speck of hope to contrast the backwards oppressive juggernaut of the Imperium, in a setting that would eat them alive as soon as any major player decided to give them the time of day.

What people get right all the time is how over-the-top everything is. Bolters are standard-issue weapons that basically shoot RPGs on full auto. That's great, it's a funny little factoid. It's a funny factoid, because it's absurd and moronically juvenile. And meanwhile, the Space Marines carrying them are all grim and super serious and For The Emperor, and they look totally ridiculous. You say that it's awesome, or AWESOME, in the same way that Fist of the North Star is "AWESOME", which is to say that it's hilarious. What people keep overlooking is that 40K isn't grimdark because of how AWESOME it is, how tough Orks are, how dangerous Necrons can be - it's grimdark because everyone is stupid. And their weapons are stupid. And everything they think of is a bad idea.

I totally agree with you. especially that bit about the Tau... I formed my opinion about them after I played as them in the dawn of war games. they sounded like a tolerant people that actually wanted to make friends and for alliances, that allowed humans to join them in a caste of their own...

and then the writers took a turn up genocide avenue...

And that doesn't even make any sense. Why on earth would they do that, they're too small as it is. and why wouldn't they want to allow humans in their system, they have four different allied species already and since humans are so divided and culturally different, this wouldn't be a practical issue.

I've read something about them killing and sterilizing humans so they wouldn't interbreed with Tau. But that whole idea is ludicrous. The chance of humans being genetically compatible with an alien species is just too small. (Eldar would be better matches anyway.)

Because the Eldar told the Ethereals to do it, the Eldar has been manipulating the Tau from the day they walked into their merry genocidal war of extinction. Since then the Tau was made to become the poster race for recruiting any race who wants unity at the cost of secretly being manipulated by the Eldar.

source was from Xenology.

 

[KilloZapit]

I think I could say the same thing about the Warhammer 40K setting as I could about a lot of sci-fi and fantasy. The overall concept is pretty retarded, but a lot of the actual details and plot points are actually quite interesting. I guess in a lot of ways D&D doesn't have this problem as much because it isn't necessarily tied to just one setting and seems to put the details, such as rules, monster lists, and so on, as much more fundamental. Warhammer 40k seems to me to be focusing on it's setting, given that that's more or less all I hear about it. I know nothing about the gameplay. And really, the setting is interesting if one reads up on some of the stories and the details of the races, but over all it's pretty much "A whole bunch of aliens and humans all doing their best to win the annual most horrible war atrocity contest". It's not a deep and philosophical exploration into any deep subject, and it isn't meant to be. And most sci-fi and fantasy stories/settings are like that.

 

[nothingspringstomind]

-SNIP-

You... really don't get how technology works in 40K. The height of human technological advancement occurred thousands of years prior to the setting's "current day", and is now referred to as "The Dark Age of Technology". The keepers of technology venerate machines as facets of the Omnissiah, and believe that rituals to appease the "machine spirits" are required for them to operate - in short, scientists have largely been replaced by a religious mystery cult that for the most part considers innovation to be heretical; the technological rate of advancement since the 31st Millennium has slowed to a crawl, and most of that prior to the Horus Heresy was simply recovering schematics and designs that humanity had already created in its distant past.

The Imperium as a whole is collectively losing knowledge, and the production of new technology is as much ritual as it is manufacturing in many cases; superstition reigns and reverse engineering is an affront to the sanctity of the machine, so you have examples where the Mechanicus knows perfectly well how to produce grav-plates for their warships but cannot then replicate the technology on a smaller scale to produce a grav-bike, even though they have vehicles that work on basically the same principle now.

Mass Effect is your standard Science Fiction vision of a bright shiny optimistic future, 40K is what happened after mankind already had one of those and it all went to hell in a hand basket - you are talking about a society that produces maxims like "An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded". The rare few brilliant technical minds or innovators are exceptions to the hidebound stagnation that sees extremely advanced technology operated alongside stuff less advanced than what we commonly use now; loading the cannons on an Imperial ship of the line is done by hand, by entire teams of men.

But with that said the Imperium uses a whole bunch of energy weapons, lasguns are standard issue equipment to the Imperial Guard.

I never pretended to know the 40K history

Now that you've explained it, it makes a lot more sense.

As for Mass Effect being Utopian, i'd have to disagree, it's more like today, but with a magical macguffin(TM) in the Mass Effect Fields to explain FTL travel, with (most) of the rest of the technology having a rough basis in modern scientific endevours.

Thanks for the knowledge boost, though, the wikipedia entries i looked at never happened to mention all the stuff you said.

 

[Ashley Blalock]

The advantages to being old are you know where stuff started and that things reflect the society that made them.

Warhammer 40K came about back in the 1980's when we were still in the Cold War and it looked like humanity was a nuke lobbing contest away from blasting ourselves back to the stone age. Made in Briton which had seen it's days as a world empire come and gone while dealing with some fairly bleak days of the 80's. Dystopian future films were still a big box office draw.

Given pop culture and Briton not being the happiest place on Earth it's not an unusual concept that a grim future game could come out of that culture.

But into that grim setting they injected that British brand of humor. Orks were green versions of the soccer hooligans and the oye crowd, Space Wolves were all the Viking stories cranked up to 11, Eldar were the posh crowd. Pretty much a stab at anything the creators could find to take a poke at in their society because a huge universe with loads of alien races gave you plenty of room to mess with ideas.

Plus it's got the space orks so how could you take the setting too seriously? Not too many settings where the bad guys say stuff like "ya gota poke 'im with da pointy end". Space orks are far lighter than the grim, way too damn serious enemies you see in other games.

 

[snfonseka]

Burn the heretic and purge the unclean...

I think Yahtzee is an agent of Chaos gods. But unfortunately common folks like us cannot detect his taint. This is a good time to call an Inquisitor to detect his taint.

 

[Frankster]

I wouldn't know because I'm not about to sift through 10 pages of fanboyism to find it, and because I didn't get much farther than that point before I got bored and went to do something else.

It's on the first page, i'm sure you can manage it, unless you just want to 40k bash for the hell of it (and instantly dismissing 10 pages as pure fanboyism without reading them+ saying you got bored of the topic and didn't even make it through the first page gives a good clue that you kinda came in to confirm your biases rather then challenge them) in which case carry on.

 

[Disthron]

I played 40K once, a long time ago. I thought the models were really cool and the game was fun to. Then I started reading the stories... it wasn't too long after that I stopped playing. I just didn't won't my army to any more win, they were ass holes. Years latter I had a very similar problem with games like GTA and God of War.

Some people have commented that 40K has some kind of deeper meaning about ongoing war or whatever. I guess it's good if it has some meaning to you but I think any meaning you see is coming from your own projections rather than the game itself. The reason there is constant war is because it's a war game. It's the same reason there can never be any peace in the World of Warcraft. If there was the game would be over. If players from different WoW factions could communicate easily, they wouldn't harass each other so much.

The reason every faction is just as bad as every other faction is so players can just pick who they think has the coolest looking army or who fit's there play style better and don't have to worry about who has the moral high ground... though annoyingly many will still try.

So yea, I always think of 40K as an otherwise fun game that was ruined by a crappy, and completely nonsensical, back story.

 

[Siege_TF]

That 'crappy, completely nonsensical backstory' was to set itself apart from Dune and other sci-fi fantasy settings, just as Fantasy's was to set itself apart from D&D. It did it's job very well.

 

[repeating integers]

...Holy shit, Yahtzee. You really threw rocks at the hornet's nest this time, didn't you?

Then again, you make a living doing that...

*goes back to playing 40k with his friends every weekend*

 

[nyysjan]

Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Pirates, exist (as do cobblers, but are out of focus as the setting is not about pirates or cobblers).

Merchant ships, exist, rogue traders come to mind immediatly, also more regular shipping is everywhere (not sure how to make merchants specifically venician or florentine though).

Reformation, exists (but when the religion is so fragmented as it is in the Imperium of Man, it tends not to have earyh shattering consequences), and is sometimes stamped out either by the ecclesiarchy or the inquisition.

Enlightment, exists, is heretical, is stamped out by the inquisition (and occasionally ends up summoning demons when it's not).

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

I never pretended to know the 40K history

Now that you've explained it, it makes a lot more sense.

As for Mass Effect being Utopian, i'd have to disagree, it's more like today, but with a magical macguffin(TM) in the Mass Effect Fields to explain FTL travel, with (most) of the rest of the technology having a rough basis in modern scientific endevours.

Thanks for the knowledge boost, though, the wikipedia entries i looked at never happened to mention all the stuff you said.

That's probably because Mass Effect is only set a few centuries in the future from now, humanity in that setting is basically just humanity now, but with some better gadgets. I wouldn't call it a utopia either, but it's still a hopeful setting populated by individuals with a relatively modern mindset (imperiled by the overall Reaper deal of course).

It used to be Wikipedia had all sorts of great info on Warhammer 40K, background on the Cult Mechanicus, Primarchs, etc, but then some overzealous editor gutted pretty much every 40K article on the site, removing just about everything other than the barebones details about the wargame/setting as a product, and for whatever reason that became the new standard. So Wikipedia is basically useless at telling you anything of substance about the setting now, if you're still curious I'd recommend consulting Lexicanum [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperium#.To9P43JLPp0] (link goes to the primary article on the Imperium, as good a place to start as any).

 

[PrototypeC]

Why is it when anything 40k is mentioned, I feel an instinctual need to pretend I don't know what that is (despite owning a 2000-point tabletop army of my own)? Could it be because 40k fans are ravenous, rabid and obsessed with chain-anything? Could it be that they rage incessantly whenever anyone says anything bad about it? Could it be the horrible, horrible art that has come out of them that has permanently seared my eyeballs?

I'd love to harp on about the backstory, and as religion rebooted sci-fi goes it's pretty damn good, but there's a bit of a problem. Games Workshop keeps changing the backstory to fit more models, or explain one thing while simultaneously raising more questions. The chaos space marines used to have an outdated and archaic Power Armour (especially the longer exhaust ports on the back), but GW chopped that out and then Forgeworld totally canned it when they made their MK II-VI models. Now it seems they, and their armour, materialized out of the damn mist. That is the LEAST of the unnecessary retcons that GW has made over the years.

Worth mentioning; you know Yahtzee is allowed to dismiss things out of hand, right? He's an adult. He can do that. No amount of you telling him otherwise (or god help us, "educating" him) is going to change his mind for him. Honestly, I feel like trolling you guys at this point would be dangerously simple. Grow thicker skin and enjoy your hobby.

 

[Mouse One]

Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Meet Kaptin Bluddflagg from Retribution. YAAAAAAAAR, I mean, WAAAAAAAAAAGH!

[http://dow.wikia.com/index.php?title=Kaptin_Bluddflagg&image=Retri_ork_camp_heroes_01-jpg]

I dunno, sounds like Yahtzee got beat up by one too many Warhammer fans in his youth. I mean, really, it's SUPPOSED to be exaggerated and over the top. Now, there are some emo fans out there who like to natter on about the philosophical meaning of the Horus Heresy and all that, but really, it's more than a little bit satirical.

 

[Agayek]

Dude it just hit me.... Duke Nukem as a space marine. That or he IS one and was thrown into the past by some sort of bad trip through the warp.

Nah, Duke can't be a Space Marine. They get their testicles and hormones surgically removed as part of their "enhanceents". I think the reason in the fluff is so that they are fully devoted to the Emperor instead of their families or somesuch.

 

[winter2]

Oh look. Another opinion piece by Mr. Croshaw.

* moves on *

 

[Ashley Blalock]

Meet Kaptin Bluddflagg from Retribution. YAAAAAAAAR, I mean, WAAAAAAAAAAGH!

[http://dow.wikia.com/index.php?title=Kaptin_Bluddflagg&image=Retri_ork_camp_heroes_01-jpg]

I dunno, sounds like Yahtzee got beat up by one too many Warhammer fans in his youth. I mean, really, it's SUPPOSED to be exaggerated and over the top. Now, there are some emo fans out there who like to natter on about the philosophical meaning of the Horus Heresy and all that, but really, it's more than a little bit satirical.

Well in Yahtzee's defense some of those larger figures would really hurt if you got beaned with one. An ork nob in 'eavy armor would really sting if you threw it with a bit of force.

 

[ACman]

Do you know what I really want in this setting?

Pirates.

And Venician/Florentine merchant ships. The setting could do with a good renaissance.

And a reformation.

Not to mention an enlightenment.

Edit: But mostly space pirates.

Edit: Edit: Yarr!

Pirates, exist (as do cobblers, but are out of focus as the setting is not about pirates or cobblers).

Merchant ships, exist, rogue traders come to mind immediatly, also more regular shipping is everywhere (not sure how to make merchants specifically venician or florentine though).

Reformation, exists (but when the religion is so fragmented as it is in the Imperium of Man, it tends not to have earyh shattering consequences), and is sometimes stamped out either by the ecclesiarchy or the inquisition.

Enlightment, exists, is heretical, is stamped out by the inquisition (and occasionally ends up summoning demons when it's not).

So what you're saying is that these things exist but do not exist for the purposes of the game . The only reference to pirates I can come up with refer to Fallen Dark Angels, Chaos or dark eldar. And weren't you the guy who told me that only the Imperium had ships?

And if a reformation has occured does it have a sphere of influence? Where is it? Who controls it?

And Enlightenment doesn't really happen when the state is still a theocracy. That's by definition the point of an enlightenment.

 

[ACman]

So what you're saying is that these things exist but do not exist for the purposes of the game . The only reference to pirates I can come up with refer to Fallen Dark Angels, Chaos or dark eldar. And weren't you the guy who told me that only the Imperium had ships?

Plenty of other races have ships. Check out Battlefleet Gothic (the rules of which are free to download). The Eldar in the basic rules are pirates. Not wanting to be a part of the craftworld system, but not as twisted as Dark Eldar (who could be considered pirates, looting and pillaging and taking prisoners). Just self serving and arrogant. Orks can also be pirates, as mentioned before, and there are plenty of humans who hang out on the fringes of society that dabble in piracy (who may or may not be servants of chaos). Renegade Space Marines do not necessarily belong to one of the legions, they could also dabble in piracy (the Red Corsairs come to mind). I have read that there is a fine line between a Rogue Trader and a pirate.....

But yes, there are pirates in 40K. They don't really serve much of a purpose in the Warhammer 40K tabletop game unless you are writing a scenario around pirates, and the upcoming Imperial Armour 11 book revolves around Eldar pirates.....but for the most part pirates are confined to Battlefleet Gothic.

Edit: If I remember correctly, there were rules for pirate fleets in one of the now defunct BFG magazines. And if the 2010 compendium ever goes official, there are more extensive rules for pirates there.

I am talking about humans.

I don't care about orks pirates/eldar pirates/space marine pirates/chaos pirates.

I am talking about human pirates within human space.

I am talking about fractional separation in government; not within the inquisition, not between unrelated planets, not hive/desert/jungle/factory/death world differences but differences between regions of space that form say trading blocks or defensive coalitions or mini-empires/kindoms who might(would!) have rivalries between each other.

 

[ACman]

I am talking about humans.

I don't care about orks pirates/eldar pirates/space marine pirates/chaos pirates.

I am talking about human pirates within human space.

I am talking about fractional separation in government; not within the inquisition, not between unrelated planets, not hive/desert/jungle/factory/death world differences but differences between regions of space that form say trading blocks or defensive coalitions or mini-empires/kindoms who might(would!) have rivalries between each other.

I can't actually see any of that in the question I responded to, all I saw you asking about were pirates. Of which there are plenty.

However the example that comes off the top of my head that comes close to what you are asking now would be the Badab war [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Badab_War#.TpAmHPoYbTo]. Though the majority of the fighting was done by Space Marines so it may not fit your criteria. It began over the proper proceedure for collecting the Imperial Tithe, ultimately leading to Huron seceding from the Imperium. Piracy was a measure used by the secessionists to disrupt trade between the loyalist parties, and the fact that the sector is in a dangerous part of space haven to all manner of scum and villainy on the run from the law.

There is also the Age of Apostasy [http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy#.TpAp3voYbTo], which was a giant power struggle between the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy. This fundamentally altered the separation of powers in the Imperium, gave rise to the Sister of Battle and there has been bad blood between the 2 arms of government since.

Another incident within the ranks of the Imperial Navy is the Gareox Prerogative. It is mentioned a number of times in the BFG background material but hasn't really been expanded upon. But what I can gather is there was a split in the Navy on strategic and tactical lines: Supporters of the Gareox prerogative believed in assault craft and carriers as the primary firepower of the fleet, whereas the old guard favoured big guns and bigger ships. Ultimately this lead to open conflict between the 2 factions, where the Gareox Prerogative was defeated.

Though the last 2 events don't really involve piracy (outside of being a side effect of civil conflict)

Sorry I've been discussing this with multiple people.

Previously I guess I've been arguing for some granularity in imperial influence. Defined regions/factions where Ecclesiarchy wanes and Administratum dominates or vice versa... Or where some third party rises over them that isn't chaos/xenos/tau/c'tan/spagetti monster of doom.

And pirates and smugglers and bounty hunters, oh my!

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I am talking about humans.

I don't care about orks pirates/eldar pirates/space marine pirates/chaos pirates.

I am talking about human pirates within human space.

I am talking about fractional separation in government; not within the inquisition, not between unrelated planets, not hive/desert/jungle/factory/death world differences but differences between regions of space that form say trading blocks or defensive coalitions or mini-empires/kindoms who might(would!) have rivalries between each other.

Pirates do crop up. Rogue military, rogue traders gone bad or skirting the edge of the law, corporations and other such large organisations doing dodgy stuff, groups that get declared renegades or heretics for whatever reason, human factions from outside the Imperium. Same with planetary systems and the nobility, they all compete and occasionally war with each other. Revolutions happen and as long as they stay within imperial law the Imperium leaves it be, it's just a minor local issue. All this stuff happens, it just isn't within the scope of the main wargame. The RPG's Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader give much more in depth and believable view of 40K, I still don't like the general direction the game has gone but they help.

EDIT:
I also agree with you on the point about Imperial propaganda. The idea that only the current system can keep humanity from falling into ruin is just the imperial line. Yes chaos exists as a threat, as do the orks and eldar, however that a system as backwards and retarded as the Imperium could survive for 10,000 years against them leads me to believe they are not as great a threat as is made out.

One major point about 40K is that the "Truth" is very hard to discern. The majority of things that you read about could well be propaganda, or just wrong because the in universe source is a clueless muppet. Bits of fluff are often marked heretical or hinted to be a bit of chaos trickery or what have you, and really they could be any shade of true/false. It is all a fictional universe and is therefore open to interpretation by the reader. Having started with Rogue Trader in 1987 my view of the 40K universe is going to be different from someone who has just got into the fluff in the past 5 years. A lot of things really don't make sense or the given explanations ring very hollow and untrue. For example I just don't get how the mechanicus got hit with the stupid stick post heresy. Beforehand the whole of humanity was on a massive wave of scientific redicovery, then BAM suddenly they don't understand how it all works and the Imperium stagnates. I can sort see how they can keep humanity as whole largely ignorant of high technology, but not the Mechanicus themselves.