Extra Punctuation: Hating Warhammer 40k and Space Marine

[ACman]

Sorry I've been discussing this with multiple people.

Previously I guess I've been arguing for some granularity in imperial influence. Defined regions/factions where Ecclesiarchy wanes and Administratum dominates or vice versa... Or where some third party rises over them that isn't chaos/xenos/tau/c'tan/spagetti monster of doom.

And pirates and smugglers and bounty hunters, oh my!

No problem. That is a really good idea, and I think there enough scope in the fluff to allow for that. As I understand it the Imperium does allow a bit of free hand when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of actually governing a sub sector or a system, as long as they pay their tithe and worship the Emperor, so it would be natural that different place adopt different ways of doing things that clash with others when they trade or have to fight together.....

But I do have a possible third faction for you: The Adeptus Mechanicus. A forge world or a sub sector dominated by a forge world would put priority on information/orders coming form Mars than Terra, and they often pursue their own agenda alongside that of the Administratum and the Ecclesiarchy, at times at odds with the other organisations. The Emperor is nominally named as the earthly representaion of the Omnissiah, but for all intents and purposes the Tech Priests of Mars have a religion of their own.

Yes there is some scope in the fluff but it's implied that the imperium is uniform and monolithic.

I know the fluff is written from the point of view of imperium propaganda/reports to the inquisistion., but there could be more of:

"the tetrach quadrant has fallen under the influence of the Duke Felemar. While he is of no immediate threat to the imperium his power is great enough that detente rather than escalation is prefered in these circumstances"

Let's face it if some lame-ass anime race like the tau can seize an area of space then there should be a human prince that can pull off the same trick.

 

[Siege_TF]

Let's face it if some lame-ass anime race like the tau can seize an area of space then there should be a human prince that can pull off the same trick.

I've actually got the exact opposite gripe; it seems like the vast majority of the 40k books are Imperials vs Seperationists, Cultists, Chaos SMurfs (and cultists). Even when there's Tyranids involved it's usually mostly rooting out Genestealer cultists despite the fact that they haven't been a playable faction in what? Fifteen years? It's got a minagerie of Xenos, but with the occasional exception it's Human vs Human violence, and less than a half dozen books are Xenos vs Xenos, and even then it's Eldar, which are damn close. Hell, Firewarrior was Tau vs friggin human cultists.

There's allusion to epic fights like Mugen Ra vs an entire damn Tyranid Splinter Fleet, or the battle on some insignificant agri-world in the Octavius system between the Orks and the Tyranids because the fertile soil let both xenos breeds reproduce so quickly; a war on every scale from the microscopic (Ork spores vs Tyrannic phages) to the gargantuan (Gargants vs bio-titans).

I just had a flash of a 40k version of Osmosis Jones; Orkmosis Gobz. Going on inside a Warboss' body, the villian being the implanted cells of a Genestealer Kiss.

 

[Ashley Blalock]

If they did want to make another human faction they already have something in the mythology to cover it. Warp storms can leave sectors of space cut off for centuries at the time.

 

[-|-]

Well, I just beat the game and I enjoyed playing it. The combat was fluid and the balance between ranged and melee was good, switching between them felt natural - better than even god-of-war 3, that and I liked Captain Titus as a protagonist and want to see more of his story. The ending set up a sequel nicely and I'll be buying it if one comes out. Especially if they can fix the main issues - i.e. repetitive enemies, excessive linearity and lame end boss.

TL/DR: Good game mechanics, ok story, poor level design (imo)

 

[JohnSmith8976]

I know you'll never do a review of a RTS, but in case you ever do - check you a game called Dawn of War. Warhammer 40K setting, excellent & addictive gameplay. Was a staple diet at any LAN party for ages. I still pick it up from time to time for the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!

 

[Trillovinum]

Because the Eldar told the Ethereals to do it, the Eldar has been manipulating the Tau from the day they walked into their merry genocidal war of extinction. Since then the Tau was made to become the poster race for recruiting any race who wants unity at the cost of secretly being manipulated by the Eldar.

source was from Xenology.[/quote]

That just Brings me to my next question... why would the Eldar want that? what's killing a few million human's to them? why do they need to manipulate the Tau into doing that when they can manipulate ork Waaagh's (which are far more effective by the way.)
(the only reason I can think of is that they want the Imperium to start a war against the Tau to wipe them out. but that just raises the question why they don't just let the orks do that.)

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

That just Brings me to my next question... why would the Eldar want that? what's killing a few million human's to them? why do they need to manipulate the Tau into doing that when they can manipulate ork Waaagh's (which are far more effective by the way.)
(the only reason I can think of is that they want the Imperium to start a war against the Tau to wipe them out. but that just raises the question why they don't just let the orks do that.)

The Human's sphere is dangerously close to most eldar craftworlds and having the Tau anger the Imperial keeps it strong, better to be used to fight the Necrons and the 'nids until they.

As for the orks they are all but impossible to control even for the eldar for one their resistant to psyker influence they where after all designed to be the perfect blunt assault troopers.

 

[Anthan]

I never liked the plotlines that much. But then again I do play Tyranids and Necrons. The 2 armies with absolutely no personal background whatsoever.
The Necrons no so much, there's always sort of vague backstory to where they came from and such. But with Tyranids, they have nothing to say where they come from except 'somewhere when no-one's gone before (or at least come back from).' Their entire plot is told by the people they face, popping into existence in their first battle, going away when they were defeated, then coming back again. And that's all.

I don't really like the video games that much though. They're just not as satisfying as sitting down for a few days posing, glueing and painting each individual model then setting everything up and gazing at your 'empire' against someone else's.
But that's all of the fun in it, I'm willing to forgive the generic "War, war, war, war, wrarw, arwarw, and more war!" (Or if they're feeling really different; "Man killed other man/alien/different kind of alien, thus single handedly saved his unit from stuff.") plotline for the rest of the hobby.
The only plotlines I have read are the ones which were in the rule books on how to play.

 

[SAMAS]

I think the one problem with this entry is the combination of blind hatred with a hefty dose of ignorance. How can you hate a setting you don't know shit about? If it's not your bag, that's fine. But it feels more like you read a two-sentence summary and based your opinion off that.

But I think your biggest sin is this: It wasn't Warhammer 40,000 that created the Space Marine craze (they just hold the trademark on the name), but Aliens (and by extension, Doom and Quake).

 

[PrototypeC]

I am actually surprised how sad I am to discover that so many of you are still wailing about this. Will Yahtzee have to explain, in detail, every last bit of 40k "lore" that he has been exposed to before you stop calling him uninformed?

Will you be seriously satisfied if next week he comes back and says, "ooh, well, you know, I am clearly an ignorant bastard and thank god that there are those noble men and women who beheld my ignorant hate speech for what it was and deigned to educate me. I see now that I was wrong, and that the Eldar are not space elves but a totally original idea, and that Spehss Mahreens are as noble and valorous as bald eagle shit, and that oversized chainsaws and huge compensatory shoulderpads are both wicked and badass. I will now step down from the internet and let you glorious wunderkinds take over my show"?

OK, OK, that level of sarcasm might be more than adequate. Still, do you see where I'm coming from at all? It is an opinion piece, with more than a hint of troll nutmeg. It is Yahtzee's god-given right to make game developers cry, so why are you so upset that he's stated that he doesn't like something you like? Nobody who previously enjoyed WH40k is going to read this and decide that Yahtzee knows best and throw all their models and Horus Heresy books down a flight of stairs. Just... I don't know, accept that 40k might not be perfect and enjoy it anyway. Please?

 

[NestorES]

Jetpacks and big-ass smash hammers!!! Nuff said.

 

[Zarkov]

Hm, I don't think Yahtzee is really familiar with W40K universe. I would agree that game somewhat assumes that player is familiar with the setting and already knows in details who are Ultramarines, what's a Weirdboy etc.
Thing is, it's a good W40K game. Now, it's all depends on your angle on W40K, but it's good at what it does.
Also, it has Ultramarines. The most boring, dull, emotionless Space Marines of all. I was actually surprised just how much emotion they show in game.

Enjoyed this game a lot and still enjoying it now. Multiplayer is fun, let's you play as Chaos.
Ultimately how good this game is is determined by your love W40K and your opinion on Ultrasmurfs.. I mean, Ultramarines.
Honestly, they should have used Space Wolves... Or maybe Chaos marines, something less bland than Ultrasmurfs.

This. I don't read Yahtzee's stuff for a good well balanced opinion, but Yahtzee really didn't have a good enough knowing of the background to make the criticism that he did.

Ah well, I love Space Marine all the more, and THQ did a really good job at making the Warhammer 40K universe come alive.

 

[Zarkov]

I just had a flash of a 40k version of Osmosis Jones; Orkmosis Gobz. Going on inside a Warboss' body, the villian being the implanted cells of a Genestealer Kiss.

You win, take all of my internets good sir

 

[Velocir_X]

I read about half of the thread and it gave me aa massive urge to throw my two cents in. Prepare for much TL;DR.

Anyways I became interested in Warhammer after playing Dawn of War (an awesome game in its own right). As such my original point of entry were the Speeusssh Marines, though DoW's Blood Raven chapter was certainly more endearing than Space Marines's Ultrasmurfs the world seemed bland and it took a backseat to the fantastic RTS. Then I caught wind of the Army Painter and boy did that pique my interest. What are all these pre-designed color schemes? Do they mean anything? But before the reasearch even began I settled on the Space Wolves for some (pretty vain)reasons.

Many long nights of scourging the lexicanum and lurking on /tg/ have completely changed my views about the Universe of 40K and its factions, though I still do love the Space Wolves for the delicious unorthodoxy and their hatred of the inquisition. (Also see: Reasonable Marines) I now openly serve the ruinous powers of the warp and proclaim "Death to the False Emporer!" at the top of my lungs, but not the reasons most would. Chaos isn't a bunch of heretic psychopaths for me. There are perfectly reasonable motivations behind those who join the legions of chaos, and the moral duality, uncertainty, of that faction is fascinating to me. Chaos isn't just the crazies, no, chaos is the military veteran focused on his skill and honor in battle (Khorne), the artist who wants to perfect his craft (Slanesh), the politician who wants to convince his electorate to change for the better (Tznetch), or the old mentor who wishes to remain and nurture the next generation with wisdom (Nurgle). And while its quite hyperbolic and often presented as evil, the lures and trappings of chaos are very much an effective analogue for much of our own ambition, and in many ways can be seen as the "good" faction - the one that wants us to transcend our limitations. These are the characters I like to play when roleplaying in the WH40K universe and in no way are they juvenile or a masculine-power fantasy. In case of battle, however, I do always have a Thousands Sons character (funny Space Wolves and Thousand Sons are sworn enemies and my favorite chapters); I like the legion for its use of guile and diplomacy (Again, see: Reasonable Marines), and its my guilty pleasure I too can have moments of juvenility and fanatic opposition to the False Emporer!

(Fun fact: I continue to play Space Wolves in DoW because: a)the Chaos faction in the game epitomizes the aspects of chaos I dislike and b)Chaos Space marines in DoW don't play the way my Thousands Sons do, and no paint job'll fix that)

For of you who made it through the dissertation here's a cookie:
Who needs GW when you can make these kinds of minatures?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerac/5164163964/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerac/5863679957/in/photostream
(Not Mine)

 

[Weskerbot3000]

BREAKING NEWS!!!! YAHTZEE DOESN'T LIKE SOMETHING, more details at eleven

 

[Eric Staples]

What are these diligent correspondents talking about? Resistance 1 totally had regenerating health. It used a health bar system, where each health bar regenerated only the damage it took. It was the same health system we saw in the Chronicles of Riddick games. And while I really liked it for that stealth game, I feel it was possibly the worst option for an action packed FPS.

At least in a typical regenerating health FPS, you can take quite a few hits before needing to hide. With the regenerating health bars, you can only take a hit or two before needing to hide, otherwise you lose the bar altogether. The only time you can you can take quite a few hits and not worry is when you know or feel that there should be health kits lying around on the ground. Although, when you died, you would start back at your last checkpoint with full health, so the health system wasn't a problem or anything.

In any case, even in one of the cutscenes for R1, the lady said that when she saw the bullet holes in Hale's shirt, she knew he had gained the Chimeran's regenerative ability. So it wasn't even a gameplay mechanic, he really had regenerating health.

 

[Beetlebum]

yeah, Warhammer is serious business. There is nothing comedic and over the top about it.

 

[Gildan Bladeborn]

It is Yahtzee's god-given right to make game developers cry, so why are you so upset that he's stated that he doesn't like something you like? Nobody who previously enjoyed WH40k is going to read this and decide that Yahtzee knows best and throw all their models and Horus Heresy books down a flight of stairs.

I don't think anyone actually cares whether or not Yahtzee enjoys or totally loathes Warhammer 40,000, what rankles is he seems to dismiss it based on silly reasons. Which is his prerogative of course, but as someone with a bully pulpit his opinion is being used to reinforce or even entirely form the opinions of others on the subject.

And since it's pretty clear he doesn't actually know much about the setting and is just dismissing it for superficial reasons like most of the people complaining about 40K on the interwebs, readers who don't know any better are liable to treat his silly and misguided dismissal of the setting as valid. This is what we'd like to hopefully prevent, as much as possible.

Do you have to like Warhammer 40k? Of course not! The aesthetics might not appeal, the themes may be too depressing, you just can't take it seriously because it has chainsaw swords in it, take your pick; you don't even need a firm reason to not like something, if it doesn't resonate it doesn't resonate, and as a fan of 40K I'm perfectly fine with that. If the reason you don't like it though is based on something that isn't true, or something you are taking wildly out of context or otherwise mistakenly applying across the board, who is to say if you actually dislike 40K when you've demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about? If you go on to influence other people through your misguided dislike, how can we know if they'd come to the same conclusions if they were shown a more accurate presentation of the setting instead of your distorted one?

That is my major gripe with this particular rant - I don't really give a toss if anyone loves or loathes 40K, each to his or her own, but it would be a shame if someone out there who would actually enjoy the setting took Yahtzee's word on the subject as gospel and dismissed it out of hand, for a bunch of silly reasons.

 

[ReverendJ]

Not that anybody's still reading this thread down the line, but...

I loves da 40k, I have 6k of orks here in the house. That said... he's right. Damn him, he's right. Perhaps I wouldn't be so harsh on the setting, but that's me being amused by aggression. (One of the reasons I like Yahtzee, actually.) That said, though, yeah, we probably didn't another GoW clone, and Space Marines ARE the most boring kind of male-power fantasy.

Just my two cents.

 

[Frank Han]

I disagree with yahztee on his basis view of warhammer 40k just because he think the whole religious marine thing is dumb(Emperor against religion until he die and after a 10000 years).
If there's something I dislike about the warhammer 40, it would be.
-overprice figure.
-MATT WARD(an ultramarine fanboy and a story fucker)
-the bad ultrasmurf movie.
-hasn't extend the storyline due to gameworkshop's greedy decision.