I think Marcus Fenix (Phoenix? Can't remember) would have benefited greatly from being a much deeper character. Additionally, I think it does military personnel an injustice that he is so one-dimensional, because as anyone who has served, or knows closely people who have served, will tell you: There are many, many reasons people join the military, above and beyond just "I'm a badass", military personnel follow orders but that doesn't mean they don't have different and nuanced opinions about what they ought to be doing or how to go about doing it, and they also have interests and feelings about things that lie outside of the military and war and what-have-you. Anyone who has ever read an autobiography or memoir of someone who has fought in a war knows this, and these should be required reading for game developers - and everyone, really...
Extra Punctuation: Manly Vs. Macho in Gears
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We do know! If you go to IGN and listen to the Resistance 3 Spoilercast, Marcus Smith (iirc) the creative director talks about how they had numerous places they had in mind but had to amalgamate some, cut others. Which explains that sense of deleted scenes.hermes200 said:
Game writing is still a fairly new art and there doesn't seem to be any correlation of standard between budget & writing. A small indie game could be driven by the writing, like Bastion, where they make sure the writing/universe/dialogue matches up with the gameplay. Then there's big budget AAA games like Resistance 3 where the writing seems to have been given less priority and therefore feels more tacked on, or incongruous. Like forgetting to have in-game dialogue to support cut-scene dialogue. Uncharted does this well, Nathan Drake speaks the same in-game, and in cut-scenes. Consistency and continuity are hard to achieve but obvious when done wrong.
to be honest, unless a game can pull off a good story, i'd rather it was left out completly than a b-movie plot stuck in for the sake of it.
in that respect its a lot like pr0n with a plot; i'd rather just cut to the action
in that respect its a lot like pr0n with a plot; i'd rather just cut to the action
I know others have said that if a game 'forces' you to read extra books in order to flesh out the background then it fails in telling it's story, and to an extent I can agree with that, but in the case of gears of war reading the karen traviss novels is actually a very good idea to anyone who wants to fully understand the gears history.
Not only are they good books in their own right, but the full history of the pendulum wars, the locust and all that happened to the main characters after e-day is expanded upon incredibly in these novels.
We learn a hell of a lot about marcus and why he is the way he is. For those of you who haven't read the books but one day might, please be aware of spoilers below.
It is clearly described during the flashback scenes of the novels (aspho fields in particular) that marcus' mum was rarely around while he was growing up and he did not have a close relationship with his dad. He spent more time at dom's (and his brother carlos who marcus was best friends with) house than he did at his own place.
After carlos was killed during the battle for aspho fields (mentioned in the first gears game by anthony carmine trivia fans!) marcus became much closer friends with dom and took it upon himself to look after him, especially after e-day when dom's wife and kids were lost.
So, I think marcus is the way he is in the games not only because he is a veteran soldier who has been through two hellish wars back to back and also spent time in a military prison which as we saw in gears 1 was no paradise, but also because almost everything he knows and loves has been taken from him and he is trying to desperately hang on to what is left.
I think he has also had to learn to depend on himself and his friends as he grew up and that has instilled a certain aloofness in him. I think a combination of everything that has happened to marcus in the games and books would make a lot of people act the way he does.
Also, as another poster said, we only see him in the games when he is on duty and therefore his military mindset is in effect. Who knows what he would be like as a person when his guard is down?
Not only are they good books in their own right, but the full history of the pendulum wars, the locust and all that happened to the main characters after e-day is expanded upon incredibly in these novels.
We learn a hell of a lot about marcus and why he is the way he is. For those of you who haven't read the books but one day might, please be aware of spoilers below.
It is clearly described during the flashback scenes of the novels (aspho fields in particular) that marcus' mum was rarely around while he was growing up and he did not have a close relationship with his dad. He spent more time at dom's (and his brother carlos who marcus was best friends with) house than he did at his own place.
After carlos was killed during the battle for aspho fields (mentioned in the first gears game by anthony carmine trivia fans!) marcus became much closer friends with dom and took it upon himself to look after him, especially after e-day when dom's wife and kids were lost.
So, I think marcus is the way he is in the games not only because he is a veteran soldier who has been through two hellish wars back to back and also spent time in a military prison which as we saw in gears 1 was no paradise, but also because almost everything he knows and loves has been taken from him and he is trying to desperately hang on to what is left.
I think he has also had to learn to depend on himself and his friends as he grew up and that has instilled a certain aloofness in him. I think a combination of everything that has happened to marcus in the games and books would make a lot of people act the way he does.
Also, as another poster said, we only see him in the games when he is on duty and therefore his military mindset is in effect. Who knows what he would be like as a person when his guard is down?
By R*, I assume you mean shorthand for Rockstar?GonzoGamer said:
In which case, I agree. The best game Rockstar has ever produced in fact has to be San Andreas. Rather then go for a serious tone, they went for something so inane and over the top...its the reason it is so brilliant!
No! That was just to throw you off. Some sleight of hand, like with the Assassin Creed trailers, prior to the gameplay leaks, where the game was looking to be about some Arab Assassin in times of the Crusades. But it was really about some grand conspiracy and the quest for the megaweapon led by the whiny pitiful descendant of the awesome assassin!!OutrageousEmu said:
Are you sure Bulletstorm isn't a greek tragedy?Akalabeth said:
Main character is tricked into killing innocent man. Has to flee. The trickster then makes main character try to "save world" but really he is killing more innocents. Main character allies with girl, but its tainted by fact that he killed her father. World ends up blowing up anyway, trickster still lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletstorm#Plot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletstorm#Plot
Anyone ever take a look at Gamesradar articles? One in particular goes a fair bit into just why the Locust are trying to kill humanity. http://www.gamesradar.com/why-youre-actually-playing-as-the-bad-guys-in-gears-of-war/
To sum it up, why wouldn't they be trying to kill everyone?
To sum it up, why wouldn't they be trying to kill everyone?
Is it just me, or did anyone else find Resistance 3's characterization of Capelli a bit too sappy? I mean, the guy leaps from a VTOL after a mitten, an act that ultimately gets his partner killed and forces him to walk to New York. It's one thing to be sentimental and keep your child's mitten on hand, it's another to seriously compromise your mission to save the world over it.
I don't expect my shooter protagonists to be Gears-style emotionless supermen, but I do expect to be convinced that they're hard enough to do what they're doing. Wife and kids? Great! Reluctant to leave them? Also great! Carries around a memento of his child? Super! We're got a shooter character who's a legitimate family man for once. But, jumps out of a helicopter for his kid's mitten? He's either a completely sad sack or has serious priority issues. Suddenly I'm not convinced Malikov couldn't've gotten any other schlub fighting for the resistance to go with him. It's not as if Capelli's a Sentinel anymore or anything.
To me, I think the right mix of "has emotions other than badass" but "surely is a badass" are the MW characters. They carry tokens and get sentimental (Soap carrying Price's gun around for five years and returning to him with palpable emotion), they gripe, they crack jokes, they get scared and even freak out sometimes (like Dunn in Second Sun), they even fail in their missions, but at no point do they give you reason to doubt that they're as legitimately badass as a real human being can be. Reznov's flashback about losing Dimitri in Black Ops was one of the most affecting scenes I've ever seen in a video game, but there's no question that Reznov is certifiably hardcore and you would not want to mess with him.
Just saying, I think a middle ground between grr arrrgh Fenix and ~~~my chillllld~~ Capelli is where it's at.
I don't expect my shooter protagonists to be Gears-style emotionless supermen, but I do expect to be convinced that they're hard enough to do what they're doing. Wife and kids? Great! Reluctant to leave them? Also great! Carries around a memento of his child? Super! We're got a shooter character who's a legitimate family man for once. But, jumps out of a helicopter for his kid's mitten? He's either a completely sad sack or has serious priority issues. Suddenly I'm not convinced Malikov couldn't've gotten any other schlub fighting for the resistance to go with him. It's not as if Capelli's a Sentinel anymore or anything.
To me, I think the right mix of "has emotions other than badass" but "surely is a badass" are the MW characters. They carry tokens and get sentimental (Soap carrying Price's gun around for five years and returning to him with palpable emotion), they gripe, they crack jokes, they get scared and even freak out sometimes (like Dunn in Second Sun), they even fail in their missions, but at no point do they give you reason to doubt that they're as legitimately badass as a real human being can be. Reznov's flashback about losing Dimitri in Black Ops was one of the most affecting scenes I've ever seen in a video game, but there's no question that Reznov is certifiably hardcore and you would not want to mess with him.
Just saying, I think a middle ground between grr arrrgh Fenix and ~~~my chillllld~~ Capelli is where it's at.
why is it? alot of people i know skip passed the plot in pron and skip the cut scenes in games and still have as much fun as i doNormandyfoxtrot said:
You assumed correct sir.hansari said:
Actually San Andreas is one of my all time favorite games and the story for that was completely absurd.
GTA4 did have a slightly better story but only in the sense that your average CSI episode (usually) has better writing than your average Saturday morning cartoon...at least the ones made only to sell toys. It wasn?t a good enough story to make up for missing gun stash unlocks, rampages, RC minigames, and all those other weird unexpected things you used to find in a gta game. I really missed the pimp missions.
If a game was a meal, I would think of all those things as cool appetizers while I only really think of the story as a garnish. The real Meat & Potatoes (for a gta) is of course running/driving around blasting ?foos? and thankfully they didn?t ruin that...but I don?t think everyone agrees with me on that regard.
Another favorite is Burnout Revenge and I don?t think that had any sort of story at all.
because with out any warning or attempt at communication they started killing every man woman and child they could find with the end goal of total genocide. seems rather evil to meZhukov said:
OT: I will say that story is not the strong point of gears but I take issue with the reasons in this article. first off the colony attack the people who died were not Griffin's "family" they were his bitter murderous underlings and his rage at their death was more "you broke my toys" than "you are responsible for the loss of life" . and second the scene at the end with the locust queen she isn't justifying anything, she is mocking the death of Adam Fenix and condemning Marcus never mind that she was screaming "YOUR SPECIES WILL DIE" a second ago and any sympathy you had for the fact that her people had to die goes away when you consider that if ANY effort had been made to make an alince with humanity with the locust providing the muscle and the humans working on the cure a massive genocidal planet wrecking war could have (possibly) been avoided
EDIT: additional point that occurs to me I don't understand the people who say that the series has failed because they needed book to expand the universe and add depth to the cast, name for me games that have been under 1o hours in length that had well developed narratives and a cast a large as the one in gears. the way I see it a games do not often have the time to have a deep universe or cast so there is a need for ways to flesh out the story like:
1. being long, like JRPG long
2. have tons of cutscenes (Xenosaga) or tons of expository dialog (metal gear solid)
3. in optional in game reading (the codex in mass effect or the log book in Metroid prime)
4. non game content (the GOW books).
and out of those I prefer the books because the lead to the most development and the least frustration but i suspect that the real issue with the books is that no one wants to spend any amount of time looking at something that doesn't have a screen and buttons
The time that she attacks the tower and the last time that you see her in game is actually a couple of days time. They also wipe out all locusts that have been tailing them and haven't run into any for at least a day and a half. I mean just before reaching the city and tower all they have fought are Lambent even in the city all they fight are lambent. They are always surprised that she shows up until then when they realize that she has been following them since that is the first time the queen shows up with her war beetle to wreck destruction.Pyramid Head said:
A writer might imagine what the cost of war might be to Marcus Fenix's psyche that would make him an emotionless killing machine. A writer might also sentimentalize Capelli's attachment to his family and how the "home front" motivates him to go on. But a good writer might also do some research and try to find examples from the real world to flesh out and inform their writing and give it some authenticity and humanity.Ariseishirou said:
I'm talking about soldier's memoirs, which are plentiful. Since Thucydides there have always been combat vets eager to tell their stories. For example, there's a site full of interviews with Soviet Red Army vets from World War II [http://english.iremember.ru/infantrymen.html]. Citizens of a brutal, oppressive dictatorship subjected to intense propaganda and indoctrination forced to fight for their nation's--and probably their own--survival against a brutal, genocidal tyrannical invader. It's probably one of the best examples in living memory of an apocalyptic conflict with existence at stake. And yet the full range of humanity of the soldiers is on display. Some examples below:
Our training in the school lasted 9 months ? since November 1943 till late August 1944. [http://english.iremember.ru/snipers/24-nikolai-nadolko.html] We were trained thoroughly. At that time the situation at the Soviet-German front no longer required ?raw meat? to be sent to the front line untrained. After completing the training we continued to be privates.
I also would like to remark that at this school we all were about the same age. And in the interrelations among us there wasn?t any infringement or physical violence or anything similar. Sergeants and officers treated us normally, humanly. (In regard to that, to put it mildly, exhausting training was considered normal at that time). Our sergeants were just a bit older than we were but much more experienced ? they had already prepared several sniper classes. They even trained us how to wind the foot wraps and gave many useful lectures. They treated us fatherly.
And there was nothing similar to this in our army at this time ? humiliation, infringement, outrage upon recruits, in other words, ? the so-called ?grandfathery.?
I also would like to remark that at this school we all were about the same age. And in the interrelations among us there wasn?t any infringement or physical violence or anything similar. Sergeants and officers treated us normally, humanly. (In regard to that, to put it mildly, exhausting training was considered normal at that time). Our sergeants were just a bit older than we were but much more experienced ? they had already prepared several sniper classes. They even trained us how to wind the foot wraps and gave many useful lectures. They treated us fatherly.
And there was nothing similar to this in our army at this time ? humiliation, infringement, outrage upon recruits, in other words, ? the so-called ?grandfathery.?
I remember how I killed my first fascist. [http://english.iremember.ru/snipers/23-alexandra-medvedeva-nazarkina.html] Together with my partner Zina Vershinina we occupied our sniping positions. While observing enemy positions, I spotted a machinegunner. I aimed and shot. It was unclear whether I hit him or not. But when I returned to the detachment, everyone already knew I?d killed an enemy. An artillery observer reported this. He saw it in his periscope, how the enemy machine gunner was killed. Everyone was joyous, they hurries to congratulate me. And I wept, for I had to kill a man?
The Germans were advancing, so the wounded were being evacuated. [http://english.iremember.ru/tankers/28-arsenij-zonov.html] It was very cold, and I didn?t have my greatcoat ? so I asked them for one. They told me they didn?t even have enough for all the wounded. So I went back to the main road, and that?s when a ?Willis? jeep and a couple of supply carts drove up. We always called these things ?hoofers?, basically horses pulling peasant carts with rations or ammunition. So the ?Willis? pulled up to me and stopped, a colonel came out in a fur coat and hat and asked me:
- Where are you coming from, Sergeant? ? And I was just dying from the cold at that point.
- From the other shore.
- What other shore, - he asked?
- Just keep driving down this way, Comrade Colonel, and you?ll see for yourself! ? The colonel then called a soldier over.
- Come here soldier! ? The soldier came over. ? Stand guard over this one ? I?m going to drive up to the head of the column, line everyone up and have him shot for panicking.
- You know, Comrade Colonel, - I said, - you can shoot me right now if you want. I?m not going to just stand here and freeze.
- Where are you coming from, Sergeant? ? And I was just dying from the cold at that point.
- From the other shore.
- What other shore, - he asked?
- Just keep driving down this way, Comrade Colonel, and you?ll see for yourself! ? The colonel then called a soldier over.
- Come here soldier! ? The soldier came over. ? Stand guard over this one ? I?m going to drive up to the head of the column, line everyone up and have him shot for panicking.
- You know, Comrade Colonel, - I said, - you can shoot me right now if you want. I?m not going to just stand here and freeze.
i genuinely lol'd after reading that. Its moments like that that completely make me despise a character to no end.
I had a similar moment of intense anger when i watched any movie with Ziyi Zhang in it. They always make her play an insufferable ****! i.e. House of Flying Daggers, Hero, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. (She probably has played likeable characters but every movie i've seen her in has made be rage!)
Wow he really didn?t like the plot of Gears 3.
I would be the first to admit the deliberate mystery they kept around for the first two games meant that I did at least want to see where it all ended, would also be the first to admit that anyone who came to me and said the plot was a work of Shakespeare I would think that they may want to check for other signs of a stroke.
Now Marcus, I personally think they stumbled upon a fun character concept, most stories of this ilk have the silent broody tough guy, you all know him and he is always loved but by and large he?s there for the odd defining moment of awesome where he rips the bad guys no2 henchman?s head off or some such, but otherwise that?s him (In a movie he will be played by that guy, you know the one who always plays that part oh what?s his name again you know the guy who was just in that film with Jason Statham)... What they did here however is make this pillar of background characters the front man, complete with all the woes and attempted development plot turns etc small wonder he didn?t know what to make of it all... bless him its hard to fight typecast?
But I will say one thing the Locust were the bad guys plain and simple Daddy Marcus that is 1 man 1 single scientist could not meet the deadline so they went straight to 'us or them' Genocide full stop no plan B or anything else attempted. Good grief the ones they didn?t slaughter they put into labour camps and worked to death, im surprised Myrrah didn?t just cut the pretence grew a Charley Chaplin Moustache scream about Lebensraum and surround herself with Goose stepping Kantus.
I would be the first to admit the deliberate mystery they kept around for the first two games meant that I did at least want to see where it all ended, would also be the first to admit that anyone who came to me and said the plot was a work of Shakespeare I would think that they may want to check for other signs of a stroke.
Now Marcus, I personally think they stumbled upon a fun character concept, most stories of this ilk have the silent broody tough guy, you all know him and he is always loved but by and large he?s there for the odd defining moment of awesome where he rips the bad guys no2 henchman?s head off or some such, but otherwise that?s him (In a movie he will be played by that guy, you know the one who always plays that part oh what?s his name again you know the guy who was just in that film with Jason Statham)... What they did here however is make this pillar of background characters the front man, complete with all the woes and attempted development plot turns etc small wonder he didn?t know what to make of it all... bless him its hard to fight typecast?
But I will say one thing the Locust were the bad guys plain and simple Daddy Marcus that is 1 man 1 single scientist could not meet the deadline so they went straight to 'us or them' Genocide full stop no plan B or anything else attempted. Good grief the ones they didn?t slaughter they put into labour camps and worked to death, im surprised Myrrah didn?t just cut the pretence grew a Charley Chaplin Moustache scream about Lebensraum and surround herself with Goose stepping Kantus.
Oh don't go defending Griffin Yahtzee. He didn't care about any of those people. He was just mad that he didn't get to be king anymore.
Also, yeah the Locust were just trying to protect themselves. But they were doing it at the expense of the humans, which means that they had to die. For those who don't know, its not really a secret in the Gears universe that the COG is a fascist government. The Gears games are aware of their own...brutal utilitarianism maybe? Just look at the man in charge, Prescott. He oozed something along those lines.
But yeah, Marcus shouldn't have stabbed the Queen so fast. Because we still don't know WHAT THE FUCK A HUMAN IS DOING LEADING THE LOCUST.
Also, yeah the Locust were just trying to protect themselves. But they were doing it at the expense of the humans, which means that they had to die. For those who don't know, its not really a secret in the Gears universe that the COG is a fascist government. The Gears games are aware of their own...brutal utilitarianism maybe? Just look at the man in charge, Prescott. He oozed something along those lines.
But yeah, Marcus shouldn't have stabbed the Queen so fast. Because we still don't know WHAT THE FUCK A HUMAN IS DOING LEADING THE LOCUST.
Adam Fenix was the only human that knew about the Locust. The Locust didn't announce themselves simply because they didn't want to share the space with the humans. That's why they were the bad guys.Joshimodo said:
I think someone said that the experiment was aimed at making humans immune to Rust-lung.
Yeah, but he later told the government. Point is, only a select few were in any contact/knowledge. Why? Seems daft.internetzealot1 said:
As for the Locust being unwilling to share, where does it explicitly state that? Obviously, I know they're a warlike species etc., but it seems illogical to both start a war on both fronts AND to attack the species that contains the person who can save your own.
Pretty much all of the info we have is speculation, based on the collectible's information. This is pretty accurate, but that's a very small fraction of information for such an enigmatic chunk of the story.internetzealot1 said:
Maybe I'm the only person on earth who thinks this, but I actually don't hate Marcus Fenix. Yahtzee's rhetoric in this article shows Marcus as nothing as growling and impotent, but telling the same story, but with different rhetoric shows a completely different character
I see Marcus as being a tragic figure reduced to joyless rage by constant exposure to nothing but violence. He has seen so many people mutilated, so many awful things, he has had no choice but to harden his mind to any emotion. However, the death of Dom proved to be a catalyst for him, and all the work he had done to completely desensitize himself to death, to disavow the effect of violence on his soul, all of it means nothing. His spirit is broken by the death of his friend to the point where nothing else matters but vengeance, but since violence and rage are all he knows, that is the only way he can respond.
Many of you likely feel I'm reading way to far into this, and I probably am, but I did this to prove a point. With enough analysis, you can do this with (almost) any character. So any character can be compelling, given sufficient analysis.
I see Marcus as being a tragic figure reduced to joyless rage by constant exposure to nothing but violence. He has seen so many people mutilated, so many awful things, he has had no choice but to harden his mind to any emotion. However, the death of Dom proved to be a catalyst for him, and all the work he had done to completely desensitize himself to death, to disavow the effect of violence on his soul, all of it means nothing. His spirit is broken by the death of his friend to the point where nothing else matters but vengeance, but since violence and rage are all he knows, that is the only way he can respond.
Many of you likely feel I'm reading way to far into this, and I probably am, but I did this to prove a point. With enough analysis, you can do this with (almost) any character. So any character can be compelling, given sufficient analysis.
