Extra Punctuation: The Sandbox Killed Batman

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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I alwyas thourght villans were "WROOOOOONG" because..they did BAD things..they HURT people..you know they are called "villans" for a reason, regardless of how interesting they are
 

FaceFaceFace

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Nov 18, 2009
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Stop bringing up Evil Genius. It's a glorified tower defense game. Not that it wasn't fun for awhile (though once I had 3 invincible superagents in my base all at once it was pretty tedious) but it's not at all what Yahtzee is suggesting. I think you all missed the "start with Saints Row 2" part. He doesn't want to just sit back and click on "activate trap" and "deploy minion" buttons (which would be more interaction with the game than you have in Evil Genius).
 

Nooners

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Sep 27, 2009
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Hot damn, Yahtzee, that second page was beautiful. Make that game, and then SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
 

SnakeoilSage

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I think the Venture Brothers do a good job of bringing this fact to light: the Guild of Calamitous Intent (the "Legion of Doom" equivalent in the Venture Bros. setting) provides everything a wannabe supervillain could want to wreak havoc yet avoid incarcaration and potential death at the hands of overzealous vigilantes - provided those villains work within a set of bureaucratic rules.

As Brock Samson pointed out "these guys like their system;" a system where villains can indulge their weird costume fetishes and dramatic entrances and villainous monologes without lasting consequence.

"You take that away," Brock goes on to say, "And you are looking at a bunch of pissed off nutbags with ray guns and giant, I don't know, a giant octopus slash tank with laser eyes."
 

Triality

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As much as I disagree with Yahtzee on the quality of the game, he makes some good points that are worth exploring in other projects. I have to wonder. With as much clout as he has on the internet and in the gaming industry (due in no small part to the fact that developers listen to him), why hasn't anyone approached him to contract his unique perspective for their game development.

The way he describes MHYTRMG and Fun Space Game: The Game has me quick-drawing my wallet, shortcutting to Amazon, then waking up and realizing these games don't exist. :(
 

nyysjan

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Phoenixmgs said:
The Riddler challenges were much improved and you had to use your mind to get a lot of the trophies instead of just waiting to get a gadget to you could line launch over to a trophy, use the batclaw to pull open a ventilation grate, etc. Lastly, I loved the story so much more in Arkham City, and I'll remember that iconic ending probably for the rest of my life.
I kinda disagree, not because the puzzles were not challenging (they were, and are), but just because of that, they are puzzles, not riddles.
The name of the man is Riddler, not Puzzler (and i bet there is a guy named that out there), i should be solving riddles, not puzzles that are mainly about timing and proper jump sequencing (or grapple line aiming).
 

Steve the Pocket

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The Random One said:
Great column. Echoes a few of the thoughts Zak Smith (the guy from I Hit It With My Axe, whose dnd blog is the precise opposite of that execrable video show) who said heroes are less interesting to play as than villains because they only react, whereas villains also set the rules of engagement. (A hero who goes to a church will have some sort of church-related adventure, but it isn't clear what kind; a villain will decide whether he'll try to dress as a ghost to scare people off the real state or kidnap nuns one by one to power a sin engine, and thus what kind of game he's playing.) Then again, perhaps villains are more suited to tabletop, while heroes are better suited to videogames, which don't have a human behind them to act in response to everything and need a rigid framework or they'll go off the rails.
Which leaves sandbox games as an interesting case, because in those games the whole appeal is that there really are no rails. Maybe that's why they already work so well for stories where you play a criminal. But what Yahtzee is proposing is almost more like a complete inversion, where you're meant to build the rails yourself. Now that he's fleshed out his ideas a bit more, it's actually sounding less like a GTA clone and more like a tool where you use a combination of RTS mechanics and skills honed from playing RollerCoaster Tycoon to play the role of a game designer and AI and then have the computer-controlled hero play it.
 

WolfThomas

Man must have a code.
Dec 21, 2007
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Unless you're the Authority, then you just tear the spines out Supervillians, then kill "god" and take over the US. Yeah actually spot on with the need to keep villains alive.
 

Ravison

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DasDestroyer said:
I would so play a Supervillain Sandbox like that... But I do think that your goal(not necessarily the final one) could be to actually kill the Superhero... and then watch as your character begins to suffer from boredom.(Megamind, anyone?)
I was definitely thinking as I read the second page that he had a bit of a Megamind-esque theme all around. Especially the holding each other in check part.
 

ACman

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It's difficult to see how they could produce a explorative zelda/metroid prime style beat em up anywhere other than Arkam Asylum and still maintain verisimilitude within the Batman universe.

I think a full sandbox with Gotham proper, Wayne Mansion, Batcave, Asylum and surrounding countryside should be on the cards next (Provided they can do it right.). Actually using stuff like the Batmobile, Bat-Bike, Bat-plane etc could be quite satisfying if done well (Maybe al la Saint's Row The Third. Can't wait to see BYC's opinion on that one.)

The narrative tightness of the experience would suffer but you'd end up with something more like a Batman Simulator. Perhaps Bruce Wayne would have to attend to business occasionally and need to balance that with being Batman and not being found out. Attend society functions that Joker/Two Face might crash and kidnap from. A Batplane level where you have to destroy Laughing/Fear gas zeppilines that the Joker/Scarcrow have set up. Batmobile car chase involving hookshots and RPGs.

There is potential there.

As to his evil genius game: I think he may almost get his wish with Saint's Row 3; but I guess you could have something like Pikmen where you surround your self with goons and go rob banks, steal freeze rays, collect components for a poison gas factory etc etc.
 

Droppa Deuce

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Dec 23, 2010
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Yahtzee Croshaw said:
Extra Punctuation: The Sandbox Killed Batman

The villains are lost in Arkham City.

Read Full Article
Not sure about this Yahtzee.

"Batman as a character isn't really about fun-time acrobatics the same way Spider-Man is, and that's why Spider-Man might suit a sandbox where Batman doesn't."

True, not in the same way, but Batman IS about fun-time acrobatics. The fact that he wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider doesn't change this fact. Almost every Batman comic will have one spread or frame of the Dark Knight high above the Gotham skyline (with or without Robin/Nightwing). One leg will be bent at the knee, the other outstretched gracefully, as if he's kicking some invisible foe. Most of the time you can't even see where his grapnel gun has attached itself, he's just flying through the air, hundreds of feet above street level. This is fairly acrobatic to me.

Also, watching Batman fight in the comics and in Arkham Asylum/City is very acrobatic. The dude jumps through hails of bullets, kicks one bro in the face whilst backfisting another perp. He's a machine.


"Getting around Arkham City with the hookshot and glidey wings feels clumsy and overcomplicated"

Flying through Arkham is awesome, it took me time to master, but there is a beauty to it. Especially when after a good 30 second glide you just decide to drop in on some nefarious dudes and mess them up. I t had me thinking imagine the Batman just dropping in on you like that, it would be very scary.

"...and when viewed from above the rooftops the whole place feels kind of lifeless."

LOL, it's Gotham City brah (and not Joel Schumacher's bright and chirpy version). The place is a sink for degenerates. No money has been invested in the infrastructure for decades and it's also been recently turned into a prison. Rocksteady got Gotham spot on.

"I enjoyed it very much because Batman's hardly in it."

This is why I don't like Burton's Batman that much, as Burton took the view that the villains were the most important aspect of the films. Nolan realised that Batman is the most important aspect, he is tragic. It really hits home when you pay your respects to his parents in Crime Alley.

Arkham City is a roller-coaster ride and I love it for its pace and ambition to give us so many bad guys. Along the way we see Batman pushed to him limits. Wearing a suit that is basically scraps of cloth and damaged Kevlar by the final chapter.

The key is not to see this as a separate game, but as a literal follow on. Less depth is needed because we already know what the backstory is. Almost every villain in Arkham City was set up in Asylum.

tl;dr
 

Cyberjester

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Oct 10, 2009
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Interesting ideas and talents that could be better channeled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country

Could say that about all those people, but punching them in the face is probably the best thing you could do that doesn't involve a bullet. There's a fair few villains in the Batman universe that should be killed, routinely poisoning/kidnapping/killing the citizens of Gotham so ideally you'd go from super hero to super villain but in an antihero role, somewhat like the Punisher. Super villain otherwise is just serial killer. :p
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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The supervillian sandbox game you want has already been made, and it was called - Scarface. Exept it lacked the hentchmen.
 

Kingjackl

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Not sure I entirely agree with you there, Yahtzee. The difference between Asylum and City is that in Asylum most of the villains were in on Joker's plan to trap Batman, which is why there's that sense of 'being watched'. Whereas in Arkham City, most of the villains are simply left to their own devices and no doubt weren't entirely prepared for Batman's arrival in the city. It's not a come down from Arkham Asylum, it's just the product of a different setting and story.

That said, it did feel like Hugo Strange and the Riddler were usually one step ahead of the Bat. The difference is they work entirely in the background, so you don't tend to notice it.
 

Cyberjester

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Oct 10, 2009
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Xman490 said:
supervillain (Firefox says that word is misspelled, but not its opposite...)
That would be because the word you used is a colloquialism, slang. A case where you threw together two words, they formed a compound word which is not recognised by Firefox. We call slang that you know that dictionaries don't a "neologism". Firefox would still be using a simple dictionary which would not include old words, new words, large words, scientific terminology, general terminology specific to a single workplace apart from I.T. and general content like that.

There's your English and I.T. lesson for the day. :p

You can add it to the dictionary, or even install others if you so chose. Or simply rely on your knowledge of the word rather than the programs, I'd advise the latter. It's easier that way. That and relying on the program tends to dumb your language down, my English usage is horrible. lol
 

Cyberjester

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Last comment on this particular post.

You mentioned "The central drama, the everlasting stalemate.".

See, that's _why_ the super hero just punches the super villain in the face. He could act like the Punisher, but then you'd get bored because the everlasting stalemate didn't exist. It's one of those things, one or the other. Balance is possible, but extremes of both unfortunately aren't.
 

Astoria

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Oct 25, 2010
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I agree with Yahtzee on the point that you don't really get to know the villains in this game (apart from Joker but we all knew him anyway). I kept waiting for another fight with Two-Face but it never came and you get nearly no hints on what Protocol 10 is the whole way through. Playing over it again you see them but not the first time. Everything else though I disagree. I liked being able to run over rooftops but I adore Assassin's Creed so that's probably why. I don't think the city's meant to feel alive because in the end it is meant to be a prison. And I don't think anyone could say that was a bad ending.

The "Mankind Has Yet To Recognise My Genius" is a great one! Funnily enough I sorta half started a Batman story that focused on a new villain instead of Batman after finishing Arkham City but I'm rubbish at ideas so it didn't go anywhere. I'd definitely buy a game using this idea though.
 

Phishfood

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Sounds a bit like Evil Genius, kinda played out the same as dungeon keeper IMO. Evil Genius was a fun game, but FAR too slow paced for my tastes which means it would probably drive Yahtzee up the wall and off the other side.

It would be VERY interesting to see a "Saint's Row" style destroy everything game with a mix of a more tactical long term basis. An X-Com of the evil genius world if you will. Have an investigation bar that starts filling up the more crimes you commit, when its full the police have found your HQ. Fill it by commiting crimes, empty it by adding cover opperations, bribing police etc.

Have a research lab where you try and find the super's weakness, be it kryptonite or copper or whatever.
 

Sean Deli

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May 11, 2011
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I've tried to envision a villain-themed game myself for quite sometime, and I always see a problem with gameplay mechanics.

I mean - you could really do great narrative there, that's not the point. And making colorful and deep characters would be easier compared to doing "Random hero-guy avenging his dead dog #34"

And you would have a lot of motivations to play with, if you are sticking with the evil protagonist: you can pursue power, or wealth, or be on a vengeance-quest against the society as a whole, or just be one of those men, who "just want to watch the world burn"

But it all boils down to gameplay.
Because let's face it - Evil Genius was boring. It was brilliant style-wise, it wonderfully used the graphical limitations of its era to make a parody of the whole James Bond genre, but gameplay-wise Evil Genius was boring.

Your villain game has to have something special about it, otherwise you get a generic action game, just without the moral superiority over the AI-controlled enemies. Think CoD, but instead of "I kill dudes for FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY" you go "I kill dudes. Period."

Now that I think about it - pretty much any action game nowadays is about a self-righteous mass-murderer. We play supervillain games everyday, we just have the hypocrisy to call them heroes because their enemies have been carefully labeled "bad" for us by game devs.