Face it people. Skyrim isn't cRPG at all.
- Thread starter JesterRaiin
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No shit, P&P RPG's rely on face-to-face multiplayer interaction and are, basically, only a very barebones ruleset with which the players themselves create a universe to play in.JesterRaiin said:
Because you confuse immersion with real life. It isn't. Immersion just means loosing yourself into the presented universe. I've been completely immersed in books, movies, TV shows and of course games. It's not a difficult concept at all.Ccx55 said:
No it isn't. It's a widespread term that finds it origin way before videogames that's used quite a lot in media studies.bussinroundz said:
I'm still waiting for my brother to finish Skyrim before I give it a try, but I can give one opinion to whether or not Skyrim is cRPG or not:
if player can play a saint and still be the grandmaster of some sinister organization like the Dark Brotherhood then the answer is simply 'no' (this happened in Oblivion).
If a player can complete all quests disregard conflicts within the game character then the game is adventurish something. If you are forced to make choises and PLAY A ROLE that alter your character and his/hers alliances or ways of life (like in Planescape: Torment), then it's a cRPG.
So, I guess Skyrim's not...?
if player can play a saint and still be the grandmaster of some sinister organization like the Dark Brotherhood then the answer is simply 'no' (this happened in Oblivion).
If a player can complete all quests disregard conflicts within the game character then the game is adventurish something. If you are forced to make choises and PLAY A ROLE that alter your character and his/hers alliances or ways of life (like in Planescape: Torment), then it's a cRPG.
So, I guess Skyrim's not...?
So, before I make a post on a couple other things in this thread, I want to take a moment to clarify this trivial point.Kakulukia said:Fair enough. But you do know that Pan is this one, right?JesterRaiin said:
Neither of those are Pan.
Who you think is Pan is just a Faun, the Spanish title is "The Faun's Labyrinth". Guillermo del Toro also has come out and said the Faun is not Pan.
Again, I know it's quite small and trivial, and I may seem like an ass for going back to point it out, but my mind just kept bugging me to correct that mistake, heh.
Anyways, on with the rest of this post!
Kakulukia said:
So what, being a video gamer is all good, but those that enjoy table top RPG's or LARP's based off of them are to be looked down upon for their interests?Abandon4093 said:
Sorry, but that shit isn't going to fly.
While the community might be smaller, there is still a large market for those that enjoy table top RPG's. I for one am an example of this. A very large portion of my friends are as well, and none of us really fit with that 'forever alone' stereotype at all.
The enjoyment had from a tabletop game is from the sheer number of possibilities one can go with. There is no set formula on how you might solve a problem. In Skyrim let's say you want to go rob that rich guy in town. Well, you'll have two main options.
1) To break in to loot him
2) Kill him, take his key, then break in to loot him
Meanwhile for a tabletop, some other approaches people might try are:
1) Attempt to bluff your way into his house to incapacitate him
2) Attempt to disguise yourself as a waiter in the middle of a party that is thrown by the host, as a way of getting past the front guards
3) Get the guards to arrest him for false charges
Now, I could go on with an entire list, but I'm just going to stop with those three because those were the first ones that came to my head that I either did myself or watch other players do in a tabletop game.
The enjoyment most of the time comes from having a problem that you can take any approach you imagine to solve it.
See, the difference between video games and tabletop games is that with the right GM, the possibilities of a tabletop are endless while a video game will have fairly limited approaches. This is due to the lack of technical limitations brought on my machines. Yes, you lack the visuals, but you have your imagine nation and resourcefulness available to you to tackle any problem you face.
Now, don't take this as a bash on video gaming. I love video games, but don't just go bashing tabletop gaming because it's different and not your thing. Hell, years ago, people used to look down on video gaming as being an odd quirk because others normally didn't partake in it. Don't do the same thing now as them or it really shows how little people have come in time and are still just as keen to out casting those that don't follow what they follow strictly because it's different.
Also, minor note on this, but if the rambling isn't extremely coherent, sorry, but I'm working off a very bad cold right now, and am currently feeling very light headed. Point still remains though on not bashing tabletop gaming, people like it because of what it is and because of the possibilities it allows.
Then maybe you actually give a glance to the modding community:zehydra said:
Any of the four mods that make up FCOM.
The Anequina Desert and spin-off mods (Makes Elsweyr a somewhat playable location)
Leviathan Soulgems (reverts soul-gems to an updated version of their Morrowind appearance, instead of all being the same mesh set to different scales)
Environment Expanders.
Unique Landscapes
High-res Texture/mesh packs
Duke Patrick's combat overhauls
a number of Leveling overhauls to fix the "efficient leveling" garbage
Khajiit re-skins
the list goes on and on and on and on...
What?Wilco86 said:
You are throwing up arbitrary restrictions that do not exist. Your character in Skyrim is defined and shaped by the quests he chooses to do and accept: You can "pretend" that some quests "Never happened", but they're still in your "Completed Quest" log, any NPCs killed during the quest are still dead, and you still have any rewards (Or the cash from pawning the rewards, or potentially-lost knowledge of the dumping place of the reward) from the quests.
I've played D&D campaigns FAR shallower than Skyrim.
Only if you have a competant/lenient Game Master - Sometimes, an NPC in D&D doesn't even exist unless the DM wants to do a very specific task with him.Chicago Ted said:
1. The GM may decide, at any point to say, "Wait, what? No, you can't do that"
2. Where are you going to find such a party? My GM has only one definition of party: "The group of characters played by the people sitting around this table."
3. This one frequently gets hit with a lot more plausible versions of "No, you can't do that"
And some use the rule system against you and kill you outright for trying to derail their campaigns.
I guess imeron is different for different people - I'd like the idea of having to wear more than a flannel codpiece before skipping up a frozen mountain, else u take cold damage.JesterRaiin said:Meet my buddy PAN.Kakulukia said:
http://www.moviemobsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/pan-2.jpg
Even more seriously : who gives a f*ck about you not giving a f*ck ? Don't you have some quests to do ? Or something ?
Ccx55 said:Underlying idea of immerions isn't about recreating YOU in the world of any given game. It's about recreating who you wish to be. You may be Aragorn, Gandalf, Saruman. You may try to become next Conan or Khal Drogo. Or maybe fantasy equivalent of Jack the Ripper is your thing ? Point is : acknowledge your role. Try to play it.Chesamo said:
It's fun, and if done properly, also immersive.
Why ?
I have better question : why not ? Why are you even into games ? It's fun.
isnt that the pale man? creepiest monster ive seen inna long time.
I feel like I'm fooling myself if I eat when the mechanics don't demand it. I'd feel like it's just playing pretend if I were to take off my armor to swim in a river and not drown. It's not hard to ask the player to do these things, I think games don't do that simply cause it wouldn't be fun.
Remember, in PnP you can just say "i take my armor off" and as soon as you thought of it you see it happen. With games you need to press a button which corresponds to an appropriation of your thoughts (you don't push buttons, you examine or interact with if you're not "activating" them) so unless there is some technology that transforms thought into action it won't ever be fun.
Also, remember this, taking off an entire armor takes time but when you do it on a PnP game it's instant. In a videogame however you would have to see the character take the armor or at the very least go in the menu and remove it. Even with the favorite tabs in Skyrim that's more and more broken flow. There's a myriad such issues and all together are reasons why games shouldn't go for the DnD feel but should just become their own type of thing.
I'm not saying games like Skyrim shouldn't exist, I'm saying that they're not all that gaming can be. They're like really good book-movies...but not good enough movie-movies.
Remember, in PnP you can just say "i take my armor off" and as soon as you thought of it you see it happen. With games you need to press a button which corresponds to an appropriation of your thoughts (you don't push buttons, you examine or interact with if you're not "activating" them) so unless there is some technology that transforms thought into action it won't ever be fun.
Also, remember this, taking off an entire armor takes time but when you do it on a PnP game it's instant. In a videogame however you would have to see the character take the armor or at the very least go in the menu and remove it. Even with the favorite tabs in Skyrim that's more and more broken flow. There's a myriad such issues and all together are reasons why games shouldn't go for the DnD feel but should just become their own type of thing.
I'm not saying games like Skyrim shouldn't exist, I'm saying that they're not all that gaming can be. They're like really good book-movies...but not good enough movie-movies.
Yeah i seriously hope that Bethesda has fixed most of the MMORPG grind bullshit in skyrim, i don't know how many times i've gone into the same cave to kill the same enemies, open the same chest in the same way(ridiculous minigames) to find the same loot as before in oblivion.
That tends to have a negative effect on immersion.
Sometimes i feel the in game books are more thrilling than anything else.
Or am i off topic, i have never played a p&p game
Also, gods damn the uncannyvalley npcs to the pus spewing hell they crawled out of
That tends to have a negative effect on immersion.
Sometimes i feel the in game books are more thrilling than anything else.
Or am i off topic, i have never played a p&p game
Also, gods damn the uncannyvalley npcs to the pus spewing hell they crawled out of
I could never play pen and paper DnD but my friend said you could pretty much change the rules to what you wanted. Add your own custom spells and everything if you cared to, and the dm allowed it.JesterRaiin said:Yes. I have quite long history with both cRPGs and "ordinary" PnP games. Baldur's Gate is one of my favourites.Bruenin said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "create anything" and the rest. Even in tabletop games players aren't able to simply do whatever they wish for. Even if they are playing Scion or Nobilis scenarios and they are essentialy gods.
Let's leave it that way. Move along sir, nothing to see, nothing to read...Zakarrum said:
It's impossible. No fun = no immersion. As i wrote it somewhere before, simply escaping from real world isn't Immersion. It's the first step to some kind of mental/social problem.Robert Ewing said:
Where would you place immortal hack and slash classics like Diablo or dungeon crawlers like Eye of Beholder/Ishar series ?BulletMagTrig said:
OT : People, i'm shocked. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/ has 1470 Core Books in its database. Let's say it's full 1000 of different rpg systems and all you can say regarding tabletop RPGs is D&D ? What about Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars, Warhammer/Warhammer 40k, Shadowrun, Gurps, Fading Suns, World of Darkness ?
Guess I was under the wrong impression
Your completely un-shared opinion noted, now for the question. Why are you on The Escapist if you decry escapism, in other words immersion? To be entertained by a medium, you must be immersed into it. I'm stopping myself now, before I cite two solid years of game theory.bussinroundz said:
I really don't see what you're complaining about, Skyrim is the TES that did it for me, I hated oblivion for it's repetition and creepy conversation with a grand total of 5 voice actors. Morrowind was great but the combat was very ....bad, so that I couldn't get into either.
The game immerses me in ways only Mass Effect was capable of, which is amazing since I never thought a TES game could do that after trying 2 games previously.
Skyrim actually has things that make the game fun, a big epic quest, a good leveling system, a pace that keeps me distracted from the main quest with tons of dungeons, side quests.
Who the HELL cares about realism? Isn't that why you're playing a game? To escape reality into a fantasy world? You're shooting fire from your mouth that you got from killing a dragon and there's supposed to be realism to this? I think they got that down fairly well. Go with the Monster Hunter logic, your character drank a hot drink and can march on for a while.
The game immerses me in ways only Mass Effect was capable of, which is amazing since I never thought a TES game could do that after trying 2 games previously.
Skyrim actually has things that make the game fun, a big epic quest, a good leveling system, a pace that keeps me distracted from the main quest with tons of dungeons, side quests.
Who the HELL cares about realism? Isn't that why you're playing a game? To escape reality into a fantasy world? You're shooting fire from your mouth that you got from killing a dragon and there's supposed to be realism to this? I think they got that down fairly well. Go with the Monster Hunter logic, your character drank a hot drink and can march on for a while.
You COULD, but 9 times out of 10, a DM who cares remotely about balancing fun with challenge will deny all but cosmetic changes to classes, spells, and races. The other 10% will throw twice as many baddies at you to make up for your jump in CR. Dungeon masters will, however, make up their own rules on occasion, and you'd have to like it or not play.Bruenin said:I could never play pen and paper DnD but my friend said you could pretty much change the rules to what you wanted. Add your own custom spells and everything if you cared to, and the dm allowed it.JesterRaiin said:Yes. I have quite long history with both cRPGs and "ordinary" PnP games. Baldur's Gate is one of my favourites.Bruenin said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "create anything" and the rest. Even in tabletop games players aren't able to simply do whatever they wish for. Even if they are playing Scion or Nobilis scenarios and they are essentialy gods.
Let's leave it that way. Move along sir, nothing to see, nothing to read...Zakarrum said:
It's impossible. No fun = no immersion. As i wrote it somewhere before, simply escaping from real world isn't Immersion. It's the first step to some kind of mental/social problem.Robert Ewing said:
Where would you place immortal hack and slash classics like Diablo or dungeon crawlers like Eye of Beholder/Ishar series ?BulletMagTrig said:
OT : People, i'm shocked. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/ has 1470 Core Books in its database. Let's say it's full 1000 of different rpg systems and all you can say regarding tabletop RPGs is D&D ? What about Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars, Warhammer/Warhammer 40k, Shadowrun, Gurps, Fading Suns, World of Darkness ?
Guess I was under the wrong impression
Thank God, someone agrees with me on that! It seems like most gamers love to have weight limits, and terrible fall damage - by which I mean where you get hurt by jumping off of something even I could do without hurting myself (A.K.A. "Call of Duty" jumping system).Chesamo said:
There is such a thing as a game being TOO realistic.
Immersion is a red herring. I recommend discarding the concept. It's cease to be a useful term, like most buzzwords.
The thing is, I don't think you are giving computer games enough credit while giving way too much to paper and dice tabletop RPGs. I've played in many games where the players were not fully fleshed-out characters, much less their role-playing characters.
More to the point, I don't think "try to recreate living person" is really what distinguishes a tabletop game.
A tabletop RPG is a game where the in-game elements can be used in terms of what they are. What this means is, what can you do with, say, a machine gun? You can shoot people, right? Some games might allow you to whack people with the butt of the gun, but that's it. Remember the movie Die Hard when John McClane was using the shoulder strap of his machine gun as a makeshift rope to lower himself into the air ducts?
That's what a tabletop RPG allows you to do. A computer rpg won't be able to do things like this because this is thinking outside the box and a computer RPG must by definition remain inside the box. If it's not coded, it doesn't happen. Even if a game developer goes a little bonkers and codes as many possibilities as they can think of into a game, they can't think of everything. Much less can they actively encourage such thinking the way a good rpg group should.
That's the difference as I see it. The whole playing a role thing is a misnomer in my opinion. and a waste of time when it comes to getting the most out of an rpg.
The thing is, I don't think you are giving computer games enough credit while giving way too much to paper and dice tabletop RPGs. I've played in many games where the players were not fully fleshed-out characters, much less their role-playing characters.
More to the point, I don't think "try to recreate living person" is really what distinguishes a tabletop game.
A tabletop RPG is a game where the in-game elements can be used in terms of what they are. What this means is, what can you do with, say, a machine gun? You can shoot people, right? Some games might allow you to whack people with the butt of the gun, but that's it. Remember the movie Die Hard when John McClane was using the shoulder strap of his machine gun as a makeshift rope to lower himself into the air ducts?
That's what a tabletop RPG allows you to do. A computer rpg won't be able to do things like this because this is thinking outside the box and a computer RPG must by definition remain inside the box. If it's not coded, it doesn't happen. Even if a game developer goes a little bonkers and codes as many possibilities as they can think of into a game, they can't think of everything. Much less can they actively encourage such thinking the way a good rpg group should.
That's the difference as I see it. The whole playing a role thing is a misnomer in my opinion. and a waste of time when it comes to getting the most out of an rpg.