Yeaaaah? I know that. What was your point? What was my point? Crap, i'm so confused.Scow2 said:
Face it people. Skyrim isn't cRPG at all.
- Thread starter JesterRaiin
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Yeah, so what if there are thousands of other systems?
D&D is the most successful RPG system for a reason. The d20 OGL wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful if it weren't such a usable, comprehensive, and fun system.
D&D is the original, most old-school version of Pen-and-Paper RPG. All other systems are cheap knockoffs that are occasionally fun.
D&D is the most successful RPG system for a reason. The d20 OGL wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful if it weren't such a usable, comprehensive, and fun system.
D&D is the original, most old-school version of Pen-and-Paper RPG. All other systems are cheap knockoffs that are occasionally fun.
What?
It's impossible for traditional pen-and-paper RPGs to exist on computers until we develop full-on artificial intelligence to act as the GM. RPG means a similar, but very different thing in video games than when discussing traditional RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. They are two different things. So I don't understand why this is even a thing.
It's impossible for traditional pen-and-paper RPGs to exist on computers until we develop full-on artificial intelligence to act as the GM. RPG means a similar, but very different thing in video games than when discussing traditional RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. They are two different things. So I don't understand why this is even a thing.
I can't help but agree with this. I had to read the OP's first post 5 times and it STILL doesn't really make sense.Eggbert said:
Figure out what message, statement or arguement you want to make before you make it please.
It definately seems like the OP is comparing apples to apple-shaped oranges here
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Are you angry that the game doesn't have a dozen little details that make it more immersive? Or are you telling gamers to just shut up and try a little harder to enjoy it?
Regardless, CRPGs have always been different from those of the pen and paper variety. D&D and the like will always be more versatile and closer to role playing, as the player's options are only limited by their imagination. A developer trying to construct a full, coherent world in a virtual space takes a hell of a lot more effort than a DM making shit up on the go to satisfy his players. Because of this, CRPGS will always be more limited, but that doesn't make them worse, and comparing them to pen and paper RPGs is pointless as they have become fundamentally different. CRPGs are no longer about die rolls and skill checks, because they've moved on into simulating worlds, which I think is a much better direction to go in, because it's suited to the medium and something you can't really do on paper. Tabletop RPGs still have the advantage of versatility and limitless options for conversation and the like, but nobody plays them because they like to toss dice around.
It's why I fail to understand the nostalgia for early CRPGs, because they used all the uninteresting and immersion-breaking elements of tabletop games like stat blocks and skill checks, but weren't advanced enough to have many of the good elements like total freedom and interactions other than combat and basic speech.
Skyrim is following the path of CRPGs, which boils down to playing a role in a fully simulated world with freedom within pretty lenient parameters. It's done away with many of the oldschool RPG elements because they were, frankly, an outdated form of gameplay. This is good. It's much closer to capturing the essence of RPGs than, say, Morrowind or Baldur's Gate. And if you don't like it, play D&D. Or, better yet, play a White Wolf game or Dark Heresy or something, since D&D is ironically trying to make itself more like a video game.
Regardless, CRPGs have always been different from those of the pen and paper variety. D&D and the like will always be more versatile and closer to role playing, as the player's options are only limited by their imagination. A developer trying to construct a full, coherent world in a virtual space takes a hell of a lot more effort than a DM making shit up on the go to satisfy his players. Because of this, CRPGS will always be more limited, but that doesn't make them worse, and comparing them to pen and paper RPGs is pointless as they have become fundamentally different. CRPGs are no longer about die rolls and skill checks, because they've moved on into simulating worlds, which I think is a much better direction to go in, because it's suited to the medium and something you can't really do on paper. Tabletop RPGs still have the advantage of versatility and limitless options for conversation and the like, but nobody plays them because they like to toss dice around.
It's why I fail to understand the nostalgia for early CRPGs, because they used all the uninteresting and immersion-breaking elements of tabletop games like stat blocks and skill checks, but weren't advanced enough to have many of the good elements like total freedom and interactions other than combat and basic speech.
Skyrim is following the path of CRPGs, which boils down to playing a role in a fully simulated world with freedom within pretty lenient parameters. It's done away with many of the oldschool RPG elements because they were, frankly, an outdated form of gameplay. This is good. It's much closer to capturing the essence of RPGs than, say, Morrowind or Baldur's Gate. And if you don't like it, play D&D. Or, better yet, play a White Wolf game or Dark Heresy or something, since D&D is ironically trying to make itself more like a video game.
*claps hands*
Congratulations, good sir. You've just missed the abso-fricken-lute point of playing video games in the first place.
If I want to play real life, I'll play real life. If I want to jump around in plate armor, screaming at dragons and chopping off anyone's head that makes another "arrow in the knee" joke, I'll play video games. That, or get high on marijuana, but the first option is far cheaper and is far less likely to put me in jail.
... btw, not endorsing marijuana here. It's a joke. Just thought I'd make that clear in case someone misinterprets this and reports it.
Congratulations, good sir. You've just missed the abso-fricken-lute point of playing video games in the first place.
If I want to play real life, I'll play real life. If I want to jump around in plate armor, screaming at dragons and chopping off anyone's head that makes another "arrow in the knee" joke, I'll play video games. That, or get high on marijuana, but the first option is far cheaper and is far less likely to put me in jail.
... btw, not endorsing marijuana here. It's a joke. Just thought I'd make that clear in case someone misinterprets this and reports it.
"There's no way to recreate tabletop, "Pen and paper" rpg experience on computers"
Fucking GOOD, Video games are superior to pen and paper games in every single way; Developers aren't falling over themselves trying to live up to the lofty goal of finding paperwork, manual mathematics and tedium fun for a reason. People who make calculators aren't striving to be better than the abacus, they already are.
Fucking GOOD, Video games are superior to pen and paper games in every single way; Developers aren't falling over themselves trying to live up to the lofty goal of finding paperwork, manual mathematics and tedium fun for a reason. People who make calculators aren't striving to be better than the abacus, they already are.
I get what the OP is saying. He's basically trying to convince people to actually play a character in Skyrim that should adhere to certain rules you set up for yourself. Like maybe being a racist Nord who never buys from Dark Elf merchants and beats them up after he got drunk in the tavern for example.
Added to that would be the option of sleeping a few hours every night so you don't pass out while dungeon-crawling, having at least one dinner or other type of food every day so you don't starve, and drink at least a few meads a day because you're an alcoholic due to the fact that your dad used to beat you up as a kid and you're trying to forget.
It's an interesting idea, and I have used the concept pretty often in an Elder Scrolls game. I often think of a set of principles for my character to which they will adhere, like not accepting a quest if it seems like idiotic altruism; I want to get something out of my effort and I want it to be clear what that thing is. Or maybe I won't help a specific Daedric Lord because I don't like what they stand for.
I don't take up on the sleeping and eating thing, I find this to be mundane and flow-breaking. I wouldn't be able to go dungeon crawling after 5 because my bed time would be lurking around the corner within just a few minutes, so I have to travel to a bed, sleep, travel back to the dungeon and then hope it's not past 5 again. I do like all the other stuff though, the stuff that doesn't break your flow but does shape your character. I purposefully don't join certain factions because I think my character isn't the kind of person who would join that faction. My next character is someone who would join the Companions, but wouldn't join the Dark Brotherhood because he feels they're all a bunch of sneaky, dishonourable asshats who are too weak to face their enemies head-on. Now precisely what this next potential character of mine is describing, is my current character. I loves the backstabs, the throat-slitting, the sneaky headshots.
I do believe if you play an RPG like Skyrim by defining who your character is as a person you would flesh him out more, and he (or she) becomes more real. We all know it's not actually you who's charging into a frost troll with an axe in one hand, flame spell in the other, heavy armour on your head and light armour on the rest of your body. The actual real life you couldn't do that, but you can be the one who shapes the character who can do that. Make that person real and identifiable within the game world.
TL;DR: My take on what OP was saying is: If you haven't already, try to roleplay a certain type of character in Skyrim. Be a drunken Barbarian. Be a crazed serial killer who likes to put poisons into the inventories of the people of an entire village so they slowly die off one by one but nobody can figure out why. Hell, be Batman for all I care. I once roleplayed Stranger from Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath in Morrowind, and had a great time (Plus everyone already called me Stranger in their stadardised voiced greetings).
Added to that would be the option of sleeping a few hours every night so you don't pass out while dungeon-crawling, having at least one dinner or other type of food every day so you don't starve, and drink at least a few meads a day because you're an alcoholic due to the fact that your dad used to beat you up as a kid and you're trying to forget.
It's an interesting idea, and I have used the concept pretty often in an Elder Scrolls game. I often think of a set of principles for my character to which they will adhere, like not accepting a quest if it seems like idiotic altruism; I want to get something out of my effort and I want it to be clear what that thing is. Or maybe I won't help a specific Daedric Lord because I don't like what they stand for.
I don't take up on the sleeping and eating thing, I find this to be mundane and flow-breaking. I wouldn't be able to go dungeon crawling after 5 because my bed time would be lurking around the corner within just a few minutes, so I have to travel to a bed, sleep, travel back to the dungeon and then hope it's not past 5 again. I do like all the other stuff though, the stuff that doesn't break your flow but does shape your character. I purposefully don't join certain factions because I think my character isn't the kind of person who would join that faction. My next character is someone who would join the Companions, but wouldn't join the Dark Brotherhood because he feels they're all a bunch of sneaky, dishonourable asshats who are too weak to face their enemies head-on. Now precisely what this next potential character of mine is describing, is my current character. I loves the backstabs, the throat-slitting, the sneaky headshots.
I do believe if you play an RPG like Skyrim by defining who your character is as a person you would flesh him out more, and he (or she) becomes more real. We all know it's not actually you who's charging into a frost troll with an axe in one hand, flame spell in the other, heavy armour on your head and light armour on the rest of your body. The actual real life you couldn't do that, but you can be the one who shapes the character who can do that. Make that person real and identifiable within the game world.
TL;DR: My take on what OP was saying is: If you haven't already, try to roleplay a certain type of character in Skyrim. Be a drunken Barbarian. Be a crazed serial killer who likes to put poisons into the inventories of the people of an entire village so they slowly die off one by one but nobody can figure out why. Hell, be Batman for all I care. I once roleplayed Stranger from Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath in Morrowind, and had a great time (Plus everyone already called me Stranger in their stadardised voiced greetings).
I've got a wood-elf character for legitimate roleplaying, and it's pretty fun. Of course, I have a khajiit just to dick around on, but every once in awhile, living in a cave and limiting yourself to carrying only a few items, sleeping, and eating a few meals a day is very satisfying.
Wow, thanks, dude(tte). I was definitely expecting to get flames just for posting in this trollthread.Ashendarei said:I can't help but agree with this. I had to read the OP's first post 5 times and it STILL doesn't really make sense.
Figure out what message, statement or arguement you want to make before you make it please.
It definately seems like the OP is comparing apples to apple-shaped oranges here
Just to keep this bugger going, do D&D based cRPG's count as cRPG's? Because, y'know, they're linear (often), and, aside from a few standouts, pretty much just like Skyrim with a different ruleset.
Wha? Ouch your reasoning is painfully wrong...RagTagBand said:
I'm sorry, but your analogy falls apart: The fun part of Pen-and-paper games is the emergent, on-the-fly gameplay. I've never found a video game that, outside of limited scripted scenes, allow you to beat the shit out of a person for them being a complete jerk to you: Most assume that you do it simply because you're the asshole. I've never found any that allow you to burn down the tavern you start in, and later have a new tavern built nearby or on top of it, with your character given very specific treatment for his behavior.
Furthermore, Skyrim has ten races available to a player: If you're good with 3D Modeling, animation, and Texturing, you can add other races slowly, one at a time, and they still won't look right. Dungeons+Dragons has hundreds of races, and with just a day, you can create exactly the race you want to play.
Yes, they count as cRPGs. cRPGs, by their nature (As stated by the OP), are much more limited in nature than whatever the OP's idea of a "True RPG" is. From what I heard, he complimented Skyrim's ability to bring so much of the tabletop experience to Computers... and then he went on about "realism" things, that I have never, ever, ever come across in a Tabletop RPG.Eggbert said:Wow, thanks, dude(tte). I was definitely expecting to get flames just for posting in this trollthread.Ashendarei said:I can't help but agree with this. I had to read the OP's first post 5 times and it STILL doesn't really make sense.
Figure out what message, statement or arguement you want to make before you make it please.
It definately seems like the OP is comparing apples to apple-shaped oranges here
Just to keep this bugger going, do D&D based cRPG's count as cRPG's? Because, y'know, they're linear (often), and, aside from a few standouts, pretty much just like Skyrim with a different ruleset.
Fast-travel in PnP RPGs is even more prevalent than fast-travel in the TES games, used within dungeons. "Okay, lets head back to the room with the puzzle-door in it!", instead of round-by-round description of the movement needed to get back their, etc.
Food, swimming, etc, are likewise glossed over. Note: Food in D&D is essentially handled as "Do you have food for the day? It doesn't matter when you eat it, in fact, all we know is you have a Day's worth of food, and it weighs 1/2 to 2 lbs. And don't get me started on encumbrance in PnP RPGs.
Here's how people handle Sleeping/Resting in PnP RPGs:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=614
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=615
Fast Travel, anyone?
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1276
Here's how PnP handle Encumbrance!
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=984
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1273
I could also find some choice articles from Darths+Droids to remind people that PnP RPGs aren't the hallmark of "verisimilitude" that the OP seemed to imply they were. "I cast Summon Bigger Fish."
I doubt that I'm purely speaking for myself here, but when I play Skyrim, just like when I played Oblivion before it, and Morrowind before it, and hell, KOTOR, or even Neverwinter Nights, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER I ever made, I had a vision beforehand of who I wanted them to be.JesterRaiin said:
When I started my first Skyrim character, I envisioned Artemis Entreri, the greatest assassin to grace Faerun for my inspiration. So I made a one-hander, wielding a sword and a dagger, wearing light armor and striking from the shadows.
I actually narrated one of my Oblivion characters once. I told the story in 3rd person, describing the events of my Orc Barbarian Hurgrob Sharnokh as he traveled the land of Cyrodiil searching for fame and fortune. Literally, I spent 30+ hours just traveling in a straight line after leaving the Imperial City and doing whatever dungeon I came across, killing whatever wild creature I found, picking up whatever loot I could, and telling it as a story the entire way.
In Knights of the Old Republic, I made all my conversation and plot choices based on who I thought my character was. In Knights of the Old Republic 2, I killed every last Jedi Master who was on that council, because the character I envisioned was angry, vengeful, and lost to his desire for revenge.
The point I'm getting at here, is I *already* treat Skyrim (and any other RPG) as a legitimate ROLE playing game, where I can take on a persona and explore a new world using that persona. And I know I'm not the only one who does.