"Faffing About" Creed...

[PrinceoN]

Despite the title, this thread has little to nothing to do with the game Assassin's Creed. It has to do with a much deeper issue, one that haunts gaming itself.

Have you ever felt that a lot of games are making us do a lot of "faffing about" to advance the story/plot/or game itself? That is to say, the characters in game make you go here, then you hear part of the story, then go bak there, then hear more story, then go somewhere else to finally get the original item/etc. you were trying to get in the first place. Sometimes the characters make you go across town or even to different towns if they're feeling really vindictive, when really, this all could've been solved by talking to 1, maybe 2 people at most.

Is this really a good gameplay mechanic? Is it good for story telling? Or is it just a game-lengthening scheme? I wanna hear thoughts and I want some examples of games that do this if you can.

Off the top of my head, Legend of Zelda games seem to be the prime target for my abuse.

Anyone else?

 

[Daedalus1942]

Despite the title, this thread has little to nothing to do with the game Assassin's Creed. It has to do with a much deeper issue, one that haunts gaming itself.

Have you ever felt that a lot of games are making us do a lot of "faffing about" to advance the story/plot/or game itself? That is to say, the characters in game make you go here, then you hear part of the story, then go bak there, then hear more story, then go somewhere else to finally get the original item/etc. you were trying to get in the first place. Sometimes the characters make you go across town or even to different towns if they're feeling really vindictive, when really, this all could've been solved by talking to 1, maybe 2 people at most.

Is this really a good gameplay mechanic? Is it good for story telling? Or is it just a game-lengthening scheme? I wanna hear thoughts and I want some examples of games that do this if you can.

Off the top of my head, Legend of Zelda games seem to be the prime target for my abuse.

Anyone else?

The legend of Zelda is a great example of kind of a lack of plot, doing dungeon upon dungeon to ultimately do what? Save the princess!
But, let's face it... The Zelda formula's wearing a bit thin.
I'm not looking forward to the next one on DS, and Twilight Princess bored me (granted I've only gotten like 10 hours into it, but if I'm not enjoying it by now, maybe I'm not going to?)
I understand that TP has received praise from alot of fans, I'm not saying it's a bad game.
I think what I'm trying to say in this extremely drawn out convoluded post is, I'm sick of Zelda games.
I never bothered finishing Phantom Hourglass. Got near the end and just got bored.
Wasn't a fan of the touch only configuration of the game, and the drawing a circle to roll was really tedious and annoying.
I'm just over Zelda.

 

[Thaius]

I think it's one of the things that holds some games back from being great literature, to be honest. I mean I would consider Bioshock to be a pillar among gaming stories, but it did an amazing amount of that: re-routing you five times just to lengthen the game when you got to your destination about 3 gameplay hours ago.

I think this is largely due to the fact that we still see video games as primarily games: we care more about good and lengthy gameplay than about story. Thus, sacrificing some narrative quality for the sake of more gameplay is acceptable. A game can last 15 hours and only have two or three real plot points because the developer wanted more gameplay time.

I think a good example of fixing this is Final Fantasy: those games are about 40 hours, and they make use of every one of those hours. Sure, stuff happens, travel time kicks in, and it does take a while to get to some places you're going, but something important always happens once you get there. And to do that for 40 hours is an impressive feat.

I think we need to look at video games as stories before games: then maybe we can move past this artificial lengthening technique.

 

[Beartrucci]

Dead Space. Every level you would start off with a door that's blocked off and you need to go through so you would go down some corridors, get an item, backtrack to the door. Talk for a bit, rinse and repeat.

 

[PrinceoN]

I think it's one of the things that holds some games back from being great literature, to be honest. I mean I would consider Bioshock to be a pillar among gaming stories, but it did an amazing amount of that: re-routing you five times just to lengthen the game when you got to your destination about 3 gameplay hours ago.

I think this is largely due to the fact that we still see video games as primarily games: we care more about good and lengthy gameplay than about story. Thus, sacrificing some narrative quality for the sake of more gameplay is acceptable. A game can last 15 hours and only have two or three real plot points because the developer wanted more gameplay time.

I think a good example of fixing this is Final Fantasy: those games are about 40 hours, and they make use of every one of those hours. Sure, stuff happens, travel time kicks in, and it does take a while to get to some places you're going, but something important always happens once you get there. And to do that for 40 hours is an impressive feat.

I think we need to look at video games as stories before games: then maybe we can move past this artificial lengthening technique.

its funny that you mention final fantasy, cause i was making this thread i was playing FF7. while playing it i just think so many times "they couldve shortened this one bit up." dont get me wrong, i enjoyed games like bioshock, even though it set you 3 hours to do something you could have done those 3 hours ago, because you ALWAYS had gameplay do to, whether it be beating up a splicer, upgrading weapons, hacking, hiding from security, etc. im just tired of games where ALL you do (for the most part) is go from town to town trying to get the next objective, with little to nothing in between the towns until you get the next objective

 

[Sonicron]

Sounds like World of Warcraft, if you ask me... even if the game in itself is the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill, there IS a story.

(I play that game myself, mind you, so no trolling here.)

 

[ThisNewGuy]

This is essentially every single storytelling ever across every medium. In every plot, a character goes from one place to another to another to another until he/she/it finally gets to the final part.

I mean, you can literally break down every single story into like a 1 paragraph deal (some website does this, but I can't remember it right now). The "faffing about" is character building. It's tension building. And it's supposed to be entertaining.

 

[Daedalus1942]

This is essentially every single storytelling ever across every medium. In every plot, a character goes from one place to another to another to another until he/she/it finally gets to the final part.

I mean, you can literally break down every single story into like a 1 paragraph deal (some website does this, but I can't remember it right now). The "faffing about" is character building. It's tension building. And it's supposed to be entertaining.

"Supposed to be" is the problem. It used to be, but many things are drawn out way too long.
I liked mirrors edge, and the length of it worked... but the $100 price tag was bs.
If it was advertised as $20-30 I'd have bought it.

 

[Flour]

Sounds like World of Warcraft, if you ask me... even if the game in itself is the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill, there IS a story.

(I play that game myself, mind you, so no trolling here.)

Calling WoW "the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill" is like calling Peggle the most hardcore game ever invented. In WoW you can level to 80 in 6 days. In some korean MMOs that same amount of time is spent on a single level.

So until there's some actual proof you play the game, you're trolling.

On-Topic: Of course it lengthens the game, when not overdone it's a good thing.(Doom3 and Bioshock are some good examples on how NOT to do it) A lot of books also set up the next bit of plot by telling how the group got from the inn to the mountain, again, spending a page on describing this is good, spending 3 pages describing how great the mountains look isn't.

 

[Beatrix]

Final Fantasy XII is doing that and nothing else.

 

[Rottweiler]

Well, it's partly game design, and partly game limitations. Players say they want 'Open World', but let's be honest here. In our own Open World, you can walk for long periods of time without much happening save sweating, feet hurting, and- depending on context and location- having your wallet nicked.

For example, I am at this very moment playing Battlefield Bad Company. The map I am on is rather large, and I could dawdle about to my heart's content if I wished. But, there are limitations built in so I cannot become hopelessly lost- a limitation, because while the map is large, it is intended for the view, not exploration. The larger rendering and such, the harder it is on your computer, and game designers have to compromise between a feeling of freedom and requiring 10 gigs of hard drive space to fully render that isolated waterfall you stumbled over whilst traveling 10 miles the wrong way to get to the objective.

Some games strike a balance, others don't.

 

[wooty]

Id say Bioshock was the biggest faffer (if thats a word)
the entire game is essentially one big detour to get to the objective area which could of been reached in 10 mins of gameplay, but I guess it would of been a crap game if that happened

 

[Sonicron]

Sounds like World of Warcraft, if you ask me... even if the game in itself is the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill, there IS a story.

(I play that game myself, mind you, so no trolling here.)

Calling WoW "the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill" is like calling Peggle the most hardcore game ever invented. In WoW you can level to 80 in 6 days. In some korean MMOs that same amount of time is spent on a single level.

So until there's some actual proof you play the game, you're trolling.

Ok, I'll qualify my statement: It's the greatest grindfest I've ever played. Happy?
I don't give a hoot about other MMOs (wherever they're from) since this one already eats up enough of my time. And if I want to call WoW what I called it, you'll just have to accept that... getting from 1 to 80 in 6 days is (imo) for people with too much time on their hands and no-one to spend it with.
Proof? Eh, I don't know if you can see my char when I'm offline, but feel free to look for 'Sanguix' (lvl 80 dwarf pala) on a German server called 'Die Ewige Wacht'. By the way, this is my only char and getting him to that level took me around 2 years.

 

[Flour]

Ok, I'll qualify my statement: It's the greatest grindfest I've ever played. Happy?
I don't give a hoot about other MMOs (wherever they're from) since this one already eats up enough of my time. And if I want to call WoW what I called it, you'll just have to accept that... getting from 1 to 80 in 6 days is (imo) for people with too much time on their hands and no-one to spend it with.
Proof? Eh, I don't know if you can see my char when I'm offline, but feel free to look for 'Sanguix' (lvl 80 dwarf pala) on a German server called 'Die Ewige Wacht'. By the way, this is my only char and getting him to that level took me around 2 years.

I'm never going to accept "I play this game" as proof of anything, especially when "wow is a grind" is usually said by people whose entire WoW experience is a 2-second trial, watching screenshots and hearing someone talk about it and "I play this game" is as much proof as saying you own the moon.
6 days means /played, it could be done in 6 actual days or in two years. And proof would be your character, alone, standing in a twill suit with a fishing pole in front of any 60 raid boss with your reply in the chat.

 

[Tonimata]

Oh yes, you get to do a lot of faffing about in LoZ, but is it pointless faffing about? No sir, henceforth, it is called questing. That and the fact that it is most of the times pretty interesting and challenging. In fact, most RPG games seem to have even stronger bosses after the last one, making you think if the whole purpose of having a last boss has any relevance at all

 

[Archemetis]

Sounds like World of Warcraft, if you ask me... even if the game in itself is the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill, there IS a story.

(I play that game myself, mind you, so no trolling here.)

Calling WoW "the greatest grindfest since the invention of the pepper mill" is like calling Peggle the most hardcore game ever invented. In WoW you can level to 80 in 6 days. In some korean MMOs that same amount of time is spent on a single level.

So until there's some actual proof you play the game, you're trolling.

Ok, I'll qualify my statement: It's the greatest grindfest I've ever played. Happy?
I don't give a hoot about other MMOs (wherever they're from) since this one already eats up enough of my time. And if I want to call WoW what I called it, you'll just have to accept that... getting from 1 to 80 in 6 days is (imo) for people with too much time on their hands and no-one to spend it with.
Proof? Eh, I don't know if you can see my char when I'm offline, but feel free to look for 'Sanguix' (lvl 80 dwarf pala) on a German server called 'Die Ewige Wacht'. By the way, this is my only char and getting him to that level took me around 2 years.

I've been playing my Hunter on Defias Brotherhood for around... 2 of the 3 years i've been playing, wanna know what level she is? 76.

I don't deny that people in the world have abandoned human contact (Or in reverse, are that desperate for some) that they level there characters in a week so as to get it out of the way.

But yeah, it's not the grindiest game in the world, but it's very much been perceived as such on the western side of the globe, so the statement isn't completely ungrounded.

OT: faffing about, in it's truest sense is honestly what I find fun about games, sandbox games are all about the faffery. but then again, I think i'm taking an entirely different meaning here.

Gameplay induced faffery is of course never fun, and really, Fable 2 has taught me just how much faffing there is to be had in a gameplay lenghtening scheme...

The greatest one

"Lucien is right there, at the incomplete spire, i'm physically pointing at it, I'm given you a means of which to know the direction you should travel, this game isn't without boats or even lesser sea vessels, you could totally go over there now and give him a solid five to the face, if he falls off of something then you're the hero of the land, well done. BUT before you get any crazy ideas about doing that, allow me to destroy the free-will you're supposed to be having in this game... There's three heroes I want you to look for..."

That right there is the biggest bit of faffery I've ever been lead on.

As I mentioned, you know where Lucien is, you have a means of which to get to him, it's not like no boats can reach the spire, because eventually you get there, BY BOAT. so there is clearly nothing stopping you from going there and gunning him straight in the face, you know, like how you do at the END of the game. So why is it necessary for me to involve people who at that time have no reason what-so-ever to fight against Lucien? Sure, recruit Garth, Garth's cool and he comes with a pre-existant hatred for Lucien, shit, recruiting him ahead of time would save him from being kidnapped for ten fucking years. and with his magic already at the top level, he's a definate must have for the adventure. You'd be saving ten years worth of people from dying while building the spire, eliminating the choice to bring them back, in fact stopping the spire from being rebuilt in the first eliminates the need for any wishes.

I realise what I'm saying would have made the game a much, much shorter experience, at least story-wise, but that's the kinda thing I hope to one day see in a game, the option to get things done before they escalate and you get side-tracked by "destiny" rolling in and killing more people. All for the sake of giving you completely redundant leveling time so that you can beat the epic one-hit-kill boss at the of the game... That is, provided you don't listen to him monologue.

 

[Charli]

Games wouldn't be games, today without tonnes of distracting doo-hickeies to amuse the more short attentive of us.

So yes, I get that feeling, what I tend to do is plough through it as fast as humanely possible and then on a bored stretch of time and I feel like it, I'll go back and mess with all the extra bits.

But some it is required... Which gets annoying.

 

[Go Fighting In The War Room]

Id say Bioshock was the biggest faffer (if thats a word)
the entire game is essentially one big detour to get to the objective area which could of been reached in 10 mins of gameplay, but I guess it would of been a crap game if that happened

Plenty of games do that. Red Faction does that, Bad Company did that on one level. BioShock is a callback to when games were allowed to do that. (I think...)

 

[Kurokami]

Despite the title, this thread has little to nothing to do with the game Assassin's Creed. It has to do with a much deeper issue, one that haunts gaming itself.

Have you ever felt that a lot of games are making us do a lot of "faffing about" to advance the story/plot/or game itself? That is to say, the characters in game make you go here, then you hear part of the story, then go bak there, then hear more story, then go somewhere else to finally get the original item/etc. you were trying to get in the first place. Sometimes the characters make you go across town or even to different towns if they're feeling really vindictive, when really, this all could've been solved by talking to 1, maybe 2 people at most.

Is this really a good gameplay mechanic? Is it good for story telling? Or is it just a game-lengthening scheme? I wanna hear thoughts and I want some examples of games that do this if you can.

Off the top of my head, Legend of Zelda games seem to be the prime target for my abuse.

Anyone else?

Assassins creed did this well, there were two huge draws about it being the story, and the assassinating, both of which had to be postponed by the damn long and irritating side quests, the main reason they were annoying was the repetition, I wouldn't mind going and stealing a women's purse provided I didn't know I was gonna steal another one the next time I wanna kill a public official, though I must say it was a big help that you gained some information in doing so, but in the end that info wasn't reallyusable.

Another game I felt abused this was Folklore in much the opposite way, now the game seemed interesting enough, the gameplay was engaging with lots of different aspects to keep you interested. All except the story. Maybe its my fault for not caring, maybe the developers had an important message to deliver with the game but I didn't get to finish listening to it because I put the game down because the 'cutscenes' and story were so goddamn horrible! Now I love Japanese movies, but have any of you seen one of them and thought "did I miss something?" for example when you see a giant teddy bear walking around with a condom in a clown car made of strawberrys running on star shine in the middle of what seemed like a normal suburban town up until this point and every other character acts as though it makes perfect sense. That's what the story felt like to me, with the exception that it showed no intention of explaining itself and moved INCREDIBLY slowly.

 

[TPiddy]

Well, developers nowadays are in a bit of a pickle when it comes to stuff like this. Replayability is the key to game sales vs game rentals. This is why some games will tack multi-player on to what is essentially a single player experience, or wedge in co-op, or do some backtracking.

Resident Evil used to do the backtracking really well, because they would make you remember where something was, and you would think that you had cleared the area, but then they throw more zombies in at the last minute. In this way it feels fresh instead of the same area. Bioshock did have a truly excellent story that could have shortened the game substantially, but it's just like the good / evil mechanic, you have to lengthen gameplay to boost sales, otherwise people will just rent your games instead.