fair trade products.

[2012 Wont Happen]

I am very concerned about the use of sweatshops as a means of production. Meaning that I HATE the use of sweatshops and think they should be banned worldwide.

In the meantime I try to buy as few sweat shop items as possible. Unfortunately, I don't really know where to go for fair trade (non sweat shop) stuff. Do you guys know where I can buy fair trade?

helpful info to my request:

I live in the San Antonio TX general area.

I am in highschool and rely on other people for money for things I need. Prices must be within reason or my parents will just tell me to fuck off.

 

[Epitome]

While it does suck to think of sweat shops they are the only viable source of income in those areas. Sure they are cruelly treated and underpaid, but they are paid. For alot of those families its the only way to eat. So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

While it does suck to think of sweat shops they are the only viable source of income in those areas. Sure they are cruelly treated and underpaid, but they are paid. For alot of those families its the only way to eat. So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

I believe in a system of world cooperation in which everybody would be provided resources in exchange for agreeing to certain population control measures to make sure we don't cause world starvation by curing starvation in the world. Also they would have to be productive to society to get their food and shelter ("he who does not work shall not eat")- but they would be justly compensated for their productivity and it would take place in safe conditions.

 

[BonsaiK]

There's always going to be menial work for people wwith few skills other than pushing a broom in front of them. In countries like China with a big unskilled population, without sweatshops there would be massive unemployment and starvation. Yes it would be nice if they were paid more, but unfortunately global markets function by rewarding the most greedy and unscrupulous. I guess that's the whole point of Fair Trade, as a counterbalance to the Free Trade which has got us into this sweatshop-dependent situation in the first place.

I wouldn't know what exists in America, but where I live it's pretty easy to get fair trade stuff as the stores that carry it do tend to use it as a marketing point.

 

[lostclause]

I support fair trade where I can but, as others have said, eliminating cheap labour is nigh impossible.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

If you are talking about clothing, American Apparel is located in Los Angeles and is notable fore paying its factory workers actual living wages. The clothes can be trendy in kind of bizarre ways, but their basics are good.

There used to be a shoe and clothing manufacturer called No Sweat, but they seem to be going out of business, which is sad.

The only shoes I've been able to find that specifically state that they are sweatshop free and fair trade are Blackspot shoes [https://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/blackspot], which began as an Adbusters "culturejamming" action. I like the concept of what Adbusters does in general, but in application they bug the living shit out of me. Nevertheless, I do like the shoes.

 

[Marcus Dubious]

Language Timothy.

As the previous posters stated 'Free Trade/Fair Trade is bollocks'. Without 'sweat' shops most of the third world would be unemployed. Look at call centres in India, people complain about the staff but rarely take into account the staff are degree level graduates with a second language. Good luck finding a pool of people in the UK or US with those skills

A very valid point, however objectionable it might be to the comfy living lovies who think poverty is solved by their £30 a month donation, this isn't actually true.
Many millions of people earn far more than their peers by working in these "sweat shops" if you ask them. they will fight to the death to protect the incomes that helps feed their entire families..

I agree that some people do exploit and work people almost to death in slavery type conditions, but to be all holier than thou and ban all these jobs it hypocritical and pompous, not to mention ignorant.

 

[Clyde]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/02/eveningnews/main5205416.shtml

Pollution bothers me much more.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

I'd say the problem with sweatshops isn't the pay--it's the conditions. Pay them local market wages, but give them the same kinds of labor laws we have here, and provide the opportunity for the population to become more skilled over time.

As good an idea as that is, I suspect it would cause some sort of economic short term loss. China today seems very much like early 20th-century America, so I doubt fair working conditions can prevail over money. It doesn't help that some Chinese cultural ideas tend towards obeying the government and doing what you're told.

The ultimate irony is that America contributes (substantially, I imagine) to China's bottom line. In a way, we could say we got rid of some of our industrial complex/big business problems by moving them to China.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I am very concerned about the use of sweatshops as a means of production. Meaning that I HATE the use of sweatshops and think they should be banned worldwide.

If that were to happen, then millions of poor kids living in the third world would find themselves without a job, and thus would probably starve to death together with their families.

Just sayin'...

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

That's assuming the only way to profitably operate a business overseas is to run it like a sweatshop. There's probably a lot of middle ground there between 'sweatshop' and 'worker paradise'.

Of course there's a lot of middleground. But if companies were being forced to close down all sweatshops, very few would actually start up legitimate fatories with workers rights. More likely they would just pull the plug and cover their losses. While the former sweatshop workers starve to death from not having a job.

If you want a better world, then banning isn't the solution. It will just result in millions of people starving to death. What needs to be done is working within the groups of sweatshop labourers, making a a change in salary and working schedule gradually.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

What losses? If you're still making a profit, you don't have 'losses' to cover. You just have less profit.

The main reason companies don't start up legitimate factories with workers rights is because they have somewhere else to go where they can set up a sweatshop. Even if they're making less profit, as long as there's nowhere they can make *more* profit, they're not going to pull the plug on anything.

Exactly. They just move to another area. Good luck in making the whole world cooperating for better workers rights. Not only will you have to compete with lobbyist groups sponsored by the companies who employ sweatshops, but you'll also have to try and enforce the very countries who specialize in catering to big corporations who wants to employ sweatshop labour.

Boycotting these products will only result in the companies closing down factories, making the poor downtrodden sweatshop labourers starve.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

I'd say the problem with sweatshops isn't the pay--it's the conditions. Pay them local market wages, but give them the same kinds of labor laws we have here, and provide the opportunity for the population to become more skilled over time.

As good an idea as that is, I suspect it would cause some sort of economic short term loss. China today seems very much like early 20th-century America, so I doubt fair working conditions can prevail over money.

Well, yeah--but that's the point. We need to do something to give fair working conditions the edge.

It doesn't help that some Chinese cultural ideas tend towards obeying the government and doing what you're told.

The ultimate irony is that America contributes (substantially, I imagine) to China's bottom line. In a way, we could say we got rid of some of our industrial complex/big business problems by moving them to China.

The big problem is we sent them from America--a place where you can organize labor and express your dissent--to the PR of China, a place where there's been a perfect storm of events to open up the country. After Mao and the Gang of Four, the PR of China has changed its ideology greatly. The idea of a market is no longer considered an issue of capitalist/marxist ideology. There's no resistance to leaving part of the economy unplanned, as long as there is no disruption to the authority of the CCP.

So you've got a strange mix of profit-seeking and state control. On the one hand big business has the freedom to exploit their workers as long as they don't run afoul of the CCP, while on the other those workers have no ability to fight back in any way that would cause political instability.

Sounds like at this point it's less a question of whether or not things will change, and more a question of how we can ease the transition. Then again, things between the US and China are kind of tense right now. I have a feeling the last thing our government wants to do is help the Chinese improve working conditions.

After all, if things end up coming to a head, we might end up with some kind of worker revolt (like the Unions in the US). And considering how much stuff the US buys from China, I'd say that's not good for anybody (in the US or China). Sure, Chinese philosophy tends more towards doing what the government says, but there's no denying there's definitely some strong anti-Mao sentiment. I heard the movie "Hero" was harshly viewed by some Chinese because it was seen as being very pro-Mao (it was suggested that the first emperor is meant to symbolize Mao).

Still, it's easy to say "here's a problem somebody needs to solve." When it comes to actually getting humane working laws passed, however, I don't know how to go about pushing that movement through the rather obstinate Chinese government, or big industrial businesses. It's amazing how much people will do to one another for even the tiniest bit greater profit.

 

[Saskwach]

The big problem is we sent them from America--a place where you can organize labor and express your dissent--to the PR of China, a place where there's been a perfect storm of events to open up the country. After Mao and the Gang of Four, the PR of China has changed its ideology greatly. The idea of a market is no longer considered an issue of capitalist/marxist ideology. There's no resistance to leaving part of the economy unplanned, as long as there is no disruption to the authority of the CCP.

So you've got a strange mix of profit-seeking and state control. On the one hand big business has the freedom to exploit their workers as long as they don't run afoul of the CCP, while on the other those workers have no ability to fight back in any way that would cause political instability.

A political commentator friend of mine calls China's system 'crony capitalism'. If you look at the richest businessmen in China ~90% (IIRC) are either Party members or friends and family of Party members. In a way, China is the kind of capitalist society marxists always said America was - money and power intrinsically linked and no higher values to be found.

 

[Marcus Dubious]

That's assuming the only way to profitably operate a business overseas is to run it like a sweatshop. There's probably a lot of middle ground there between 'sweatshop' and 'worker paradise'.

There absolutely is

the solution is easy. pay more for the products you buy, would you pay $3000 for a laptop you get now for $1000, the middle ground is there.
If we pay 3 times the price for all our third world imported goods then we all live in harmony. But you are one of the people who will look on the internet for the cheapest price, if you say you don?t then you are a liar.

this is why people in the west are hypocrites, they insist on cheep prices but then moan that the workers who make these prices possible are paid shit and work like dogs in crappy conditions

 

[Lukeje]

That's assuming the only way to profitably operate a business overseas is to run it like a sweatshop. There's probably a lot of middle ground there between 'sweatshop' and 'worker paradise'.

There absolutely is

the solution is easy. pay more for the products you buy, would you pay $3000 for a laptop you get now for $1000, the middle ground is there.
If we pay 3 times the price for all our third world imported goods then we all live in harmony. But you are one of the people who will look on the internet for the cheapest price, if you say you don?t then you are a liar.

this is why people in the west are hypocrites, they insist on cheep prices but then moan that the workers who make these prices possible are paid shit and work like dogs in crappy conditions

Ermm... do you really think the extra profit would go into the worker's pockets? As long as they can get away with sweatshop wages, they will pay sweatshop wages.

 

[Nickolai77]

A political commentator friend of mine calls China's system 'crony capitalism'. If you look at the richest businessmen in China ~90% (IIRC) are either Party members or friends and family of Party members. In a way, China is the kind of capitalist society marxists always said America was - money and power intrinsically linked and no higher values to be found.

QFT

China is communist in name only. In reality it is a fusion of capitalism and political privileges, a one party capitalist society. No one can really call China a communist country anymore. Mao is probably turning in his grave (or in his glass box) as we speak.

Now with regards to sweatshops. Yes they are horrendously unethical by western standards but for the actual people who work there they are just glad they are not starving to death. Also, don't forget that where sweatshops locate leads to the industrialisation of that area. People get jobs, they get money, they get training to use machinery, creating a better trained workforce, over time this leads to a better trained labour force which can handle more advanced means of production. So we see car-plants, heavy machinery, steel works etc being set up in these areas- which means even more jobs and cash. More money goes to the government from land rent and taxes, so the state becomes richer as more factories locate in the country- until you eventually get to what China is today. A lot of people suffer under the capatalist-globalisation of the world economy, but it does, given time, actually work and does improve a nations wealth.

However, i think some international-government leglisation should be passed to make these business more ethical
- A fair minimum wage and fair work-hour limit.
-A modest proportion of a companies profits go towards the host-government, on top of land rent and ordinary tax the company pays. (provided that the host government can be trusted with the money)
-Companies are obliged to provide basic health insurance, sick-pay and retirement money.

If there are no other schools in the area, then the children of workers could be educated by the company.

 

[Marcus Dubious]

That's assuming the only way to profitably operate a business overseas is to run it like a sweatshop. There's probably a lot of middle ground there between 'sweatshop' and 'worker paradise'.

There absolutely is

the solution is easy. pay more for the products you buy, would you pay $3000 for a laptop you get now for $1000, the middle ground is there.
If we pay 3 times the price for all our third world imported goods then we all live in harmony. But you are one of the people who will look on the internet for the cheapest price, if you say you don?t then you are a liar.

this is why people in the west are hypocrites, they insist on cheep prices but then moan that the workers who make these prices possible are paid shit and work like dogs in crappy conditions

Ermm... do you really think the extra profit would go into the worker's pockets? As long as they can get away with sweatshop wages, they will pay sweatshop wages.

OMG, did you really think my solution was as simplistic as just paying the sweat shop owners more money and hoping for the best? hmmmm

 

[kylejj91]

China is communist in name only. In reality it is a fusion of capitalism and political privileges, a one party capitalist society. No one can really call China a communist country anymore. Mao is probably turning in his grave (or in his glass box) as we speak.

Now with regards to sweatshops. Yes they are horrendously unethical by western standards but for the actual people who work there they are just glad they are not starving to death. Also, don't forget that where sweatshops locate leads to the industrialisation of that area. People get jobs, they get money, they get training to use machinery, creating a better trained workforce, over time this leads to a better trained labour force which can handle more advanced means of production. So we see car-plants, heavy machinery, steel works etc being set up in these areas- which means even more jobs and cash. More money goes to the government from land rent and taxes, so the state becomes richer as more factories locate in the country- until you eventually get to what China is today. A lot of people suffer under the capatalist-globalisation of the world economy, but it does, given time, actually work and does improve a nations wealth.

However, i think some international-government leglisation should be passed to make these business more ethical
- A fair minimum wage and fair work-hour limit.
-A modest proportion of a companies profits go towards the host-government, on top of land rent and ordinary tax the company pays. (provided that the host government can be trusted with the money)
-Companies are obliged to provide basic health insurance, sick-pay and retirement money.

If there are no other schools in the area, then the children of workers could be educated by the company.

I very much agree with the point you made with "sweatshops leads to the industrialisation of that area". It's completely unskilled labor gaining skills which make them skilled labor.

Here is how it works. When a bunch of skilled laborers are mad about there working conditions they will form a union and gain the power of majority over these companies. Then in time they will gain these benefits over time(or all be shot for going on strike).

You can't just superimpose workers benefits like yours and mine on another country. If you did do that all of these companies that use sweetshops would either close down and kill the employment force economically (also the chances of that country to become industrialized) or they will just give you the middle finger. If they give you the finger then you can take it and let them be (giving up your power and making the law meaningless) or invade their country, and force your believes on workers rights on them.....with tanks.

 

[bluepilot]

I can understand you feelings but it is really pretty near impossible to be fully fairtrade. Fairtrde isn`t just about sweat shops. but also affects how commodity prices are kept low, screwing over farmers but keeping other people really rich.

So, if you really wanted to go fully fairtrade, everything you buy has to be local and probably made by hand.

Regilar everyday items like clothes, most things made from plastic, coffee, tea, sugar, flour, are mostly produced in other countries. You cannot tell if they were made in a sweat shop or not. For some commodities, the `fairtrade` option is available so your could buy this.

However, there are much more productive ways than boycotting. Why not get involved in the cause?