fair trade products.

[Chechosaurus]

I found out the other day that Primark are actually quite ethical. I don't know if you have Primark in America though. I don't shop there anyway because I'm a socialist and so Primark are still evil in my eyes.... just ever so slightly less evil than some other businesses.

As for other Fair Trade stuff, I only buy Fair Trade coffee and tea and the like. It's not actually much more expensive than no Fair Trade and I'm sure it tastes better.

You should join Unite the Union. They are going global and, as the name suggests, are uniting all of the trade unions to get the best for people across the world. That includes slave kids in the Philippines who make your £50 trainers.

 

[Nickolai77]

You can't just superimpose workers benefits like yours and mine on another country. If you did do that all of these companies that use sweetshops would either close down and kill the employment force economically (also the chances of that country to become industrialized) or they will just give you the middle finger. If they give you the finger then you can take it and let them be (giving up your power and making the law meaningless) or invade their country, and force your believes on workers rights on them.....with tanks.

I'm not talking about imposing laws on another peoples county, i'm talking about western countries imposing laws on their own companies that work in these other countries.

 

[Epitome]

While it does suck to think of sweat shops they are the only viable source of income in those areas. Sure they are cruelly treated and underpaid, but they are paid. For alot of those families its the only way to eat. So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

I believe in a system of world cooperation in which everybody would be provided resources in exchange for agreeing to certain population control measures to make sure we don't cause world starvation by curing starvation in the world. Also they would have to be productive to society to get their food and shelter ("he who does not work shall not eat")- but they would be justly compensated for their productivity and it would take place in safe conditions.

I believe in a system where all mankind wakes in the morning to a fully trained callgirl, a full breakfast and never has to get out of bed until he has finished both. I also believe that i stand a better chance of seeing my vision come true than yours. The world is overcrowded, extremely so, aand resources are scarce and profit is king. They allow themselves to be exploited, and withdrawing food if they wont work is hardly an improvement in living conditions as well as the right to fuck as often as they want(population control).

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

While it does suck to think of sweat shops they are the only viable source of income in those areas. Sure they are cruelly treated and underpaid, but they are paid. For alot of those families its the only way to eat. So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

I believe in a system of world cooperation in which everybody would be provided resources in exchange for agreeing to certain population control measures to make sure we don't cause world starvation by curing starvation in the world. Also they would have to be productive to society to get their food and shelter ("he who does not work shall not eat")- but they would be justly compensated for their productivity and it would take place in safe conditions.

I believe in a system where all mankind wakes in the morning to a fully trained callgirl, a full breakfast and never has to get out of bed until he has finished both. I also believe that i stand a better chance of seeing my vision come true than yours. The world is overcrowded, extremely so, aand resources are scarce and profit is king. They allow themselves to be exploited, and withdrawing food if they wont work is hardly an improvement in living conditions as well as the right to fuck as often as they want(population control).

population control isn't not fucking. It's condoms, pills, and visectamies and tube tieings after having a certain number of kids perhaps

 

[Aardvark]

I have to say, that fair trade chocolate is awesome.

Sadly, the rest of the crap at the Oxfam shops are pointless junk. Awesome when you're looking for gifts to give people you hate, but otherwise pointless.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

the thing about fair trade is this, there isn't such a thing and what we'd consider horrendous treatment, others might consider it a great thing

take India for example, the tech support people over there get paid $500 USD a month or less. now we'd say "omg that's a horrible wage and so unfair" HOWEVER in India that much money allows the person to have his own apartment, own car and live very well.

now with places like China and such, getting paid a LOT less than what we'd work for, is much the same as it is in India. they are being paid pretty well and can afford a lot of stuff, most importantly food and clothing and a house for their kids

while we think that they are being treated horribly they are thinking they have the good life.

another example, that i had to deal with personally. a few years ago, i worked a company that had operations in Hungary. they brought some Hungarians over to Canada to work for 12 months. these guys worked 12 hrs a day for 6 months and got paid room and board wages, which was between $7 and $8/hr, this was about 13 years ago. we all thought it was unfair and totally crappy for them. however one day we were talking to one of them who could speak more english than the rest, he said the $1000 he was making every 2 weeks worked out to be 10 times that in his money if not more. he was more than happy to work like that for 6 months cause when he got home he could buy his own house, a car and pay for his kids to go to school.

so i think some of the fair trade thing is rather unreasonable and doesn't really take into account certain thing, such as how they live in the country itself. we think that every should be like us, when that's not always wanted or desired

 

[Alex_P]

So go thank your local fat person--if not for them eating twice as much, there would be another person in the world putting all those demands that increase one's ecological footprint regardless of weight

The issue of food distribution definitely isn't as simple as "fat people eat too much". Which foods you're consuming has a big impact on your food footprint.

And here we need to make the important distinction between "consuming" as eating and "consuming" as resource-use, too -- the guy who goes to a fancy restaurant and throws away half his meal is using up just as much food as a friend who finishes the whole thing.

-- Alex

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

The issue with Fair Trade is not whether we buy things grown or manufactured overseas, but rather whether or not we support companies that pay their workers a proper living wage (and even in countries where a living wage is a very small amount, many of them still do not make even that much) and give them safe, healthy places to work.

 

[wolfy098]

While it does suck to think of sweat shops they are the only viable source of income in those areas. Sure they are cruelly treated and underpaid, but they are paid. For alot of those families its the only way to eat. So when your choice is sweatshop or death by starvation sweatshop is the lesser of two evils. Think about it, if we were going to pay them the same to do the work then the jobs would be here and not there. Im not saying support your local sweatshop im saying dont forget you cant just close em all down people need that industry because its all they are skilled for.

I believe in a system of world cooperation in which everybody would be provided resources in exchange for agreeing to certain population control measures to make sure we don't cause world starvation by curing starvation in the world. Also they would have to be productive to society to get their food and shelter ("he who does not work shall not eat")- but they would be justly compensated for their productivity and it would take place in safe conditions.

This is earth not heaven

[sub]For the record I don't believe in heaven [/sub]

 

[jasoncyrus]

I am very concerned about the use of sweatshops as a means of production. Meaning that I HATE the use of sweatshops and think they should be banned worldwide.

In the meantime I try to buy as few sweat shop items as possible. Unfortunately, I don't really know where to go for fair trade (non sweat shop) stuff. Do you guys know where I can buy fair trade?

helpful info to my request:

I live in the San Antonio TX general area.

I am in highschool and rely on other people for money for things I need. Prices must be within reason or my parents will just tell me to fuck off.

To be honest I'd rather take th kids out of sweat shops and put all the illegal immigrants caught in the UK to work in them...that'll teach them -.- If you wanna live here fine, do it LEGALLY!><

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Fairtrade is the purest essence of failure. It is, seriously. Utterly, completely, and wholly, it personifies entirely what is wrong with society.

YOU ARE PAYING THREE TIMES THE MARKET PRICE FOR THE SAME PRODUCT!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!?

Idiotic concept, idiot implementation.

 

[Alex_P]

YOU ARE PAYING THREE TIMES THE MARKET PRICE FOR THE SAME PRODUCT!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!?

You slip a dollar into the tip jar at a fast-food place sometimes, don't you?

Except for the silly branding built up around it sometimes, I don't really see "fair trade" stuff as any different from that.

-- Alex

 

[Rolling Thunder]

YOU ARE PAYING THREE TIMES THE MARKET PRICE FOR THE SAME PRODUCT!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!?

You slip a dollar into the tip jar at a fast-food place sometimes, don't you?

Except for the silly branding built up around it sometimes, I don't really see "fair trade" stuff as any different from that.

-- Alex

No. At restraunts, yes, but only if I am provided service that I consider acceptable. And our fast-food restraunts don't have tip jars. Just regular restraunts. Fairtrade is different. Faitrade is moronic people screwing with market economics on a global scale.


Let's put it this way: Most of the time, farmers have to compete. This is good. We want them to compete. They've got the domestic market, and the export market, yes. And that is why food is normally so cheap - because the export market rarely pays more than the domestic market.

Now, what happens when the export suddenly starts paying a lot more - and believe me, in third world countries, a dollar per bushel/etc extra is a hell of a lot? Well, let's see. Domestic supply shrinks, prices rise. Prices rise, and everyone who isn't a peasant farmer - indeed, anyone who isn't a Fairtrade brand peasant farmer - is now suddenly earning a lot less money for their labour.


Congratulations. In exorcising a fictious 'evil', namely, that you can live well on a dollar a week in Burkina Fason, a far, far worse one is summoned into being by human ineptitude.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

the thing about fair trade is this, there isn't such a thing and what we'd consider horrendous treatment, others might consider it a great thing

take India for example, the tech support people over there get paid $500 USD a month or less. now we'd say "omg that's a horrible wage and so unfair" HOWEVER in India that much money allows the person to have his own apartment, own car and live very well.

now with places like China and such, getting paid a LOT less than what we'd work for, is much the same as it is in India. they are being paid pretty well and can afford a lot of stuff, most importantly food and clothing and a house for their kids

while we think that they are being treated horribly they are thinking they have the good life.

Complete strawman--no one I've ever heard of is talking about some absolute wage level everyone in the world must be paid.

No one considers this to be a situation where you are "being paid pretty well and can afford a lot of stuff"

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=c5270b79-d56a-4736-bbba-4371af273056

actually it IS exactly what the whole trade thing is about, make sure people get paid enough to live on and afford things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade

what you're talking about isn't the same thing

 

[Rolling Thunder]

the thing about fair trade is this, there isn't such a thing and what we'd consider horrendous treatment, others might consider it a great thing

take India for example, the tech support people over there get paid $500 USD a month or less. now we'd say "omg that's a horrible wage and so unfair" HOWEVER in India that much money allows the person to have his own apartment, own car and live very well.

now with places like China and such, getting paid a LOT less than what we'd work for, is much the same as it is in India. they are being paid pretty well and can afford a lot of stuff, most importantly food and clothing and a house for their kids

while we think that they are being treated horribly they are thinking they have the good life.

Complete strawman--no one I've ever heard of is talking about some absolute wage level everyone in the world must be paid.

No one considers this to be a situation where you are "being paid pretty well and can afford a lot of stuff"

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=c5270b79-d56a-4736-bbba-4371af273056

actually it IS exactly what the whole trade thing is about, make sure people get paid enough to live on and afford things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade

what you're talking about isn't the same thing

Did you actually read my post, or was it too inconveniently true for you?

EDIT: Apologies for the sarcasm. Uncalled for.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Fairtrade is different. Faitrade is moronic people screwing with market economics on a global scale.


Let's put it this way: Most of the time, farmers have to compete. This is good. We want them to compete. They've got the domestic market, and the export market, yes. And that is why food is normally so cheap - because the export market rarely pays more than the domestic market.

Now, what happens when the export suddenly starts paying a lot more - and believe me, in third world countries, a dollar per bushel/etc extra is a hell of a lot? Well, let's see. Domestic supply shrinks, prices rise. Prices rise, and everyone who isn't a peasant farmer - indeed, anyone who isn't a Fairtrade brand peasant farmer - is now suddenly earning a lot less money for their labour.


Congratulations. In exorcising a fictious 'evil', namely, that you can live well on a dollar a week in Burkina Fason, a far, far worse one is summoned into being by human ineptitude.

Why won't everyone who isn't a peasant farmer in the local market *also* raise their prices? Why do you think the market won't adapt to the influx of wealth? Peasant farmers don't strike me as the kind of group who can artificially keep the prices of the rest of the producers in the local economy low.

Cheeze, you just destroyed the argument for Fairtrade products, as you clearly demonstrate that, by paying them extra, because, as you pointed out, everyone else will raise their prices, in essence meaning that that, firstly, every other industry in the nation has just become considerably less competetive on an international level due to it having higher costs. Secondly, it means that, in real-wage terms, the farmers are still being paid just as much, but with added suffering and misery for everyone, economic growth slowing, inflation and general crap. In essence, nobody is winning here. Thirdly, the fact is that the food price rise is going to happen quite suddenly. But other people cannot suddenly re-negotiate their wages to correspond with that. At best, you're going to have a one to two year gap until wages catch up with rising prices (Prices that will not come down. Price Stickiness, Keynes).

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Please point me to the section that demands that all workers be paid the same absolute amount no matter what the local market conditions are.

well i never said an absolute thing, i gave several examples of what they are doing now and made up numbers

however you actually read it, it's about paying the farmers more money so they afford things and live better.

it says so right in the fist 2 lines of the header and also in other spots in the article

 

[Rolling Thunder]

1. You should really look at your definition of 'most productive'. 'Most Output, for least input'. In essence, if I can make something for £3, or for £1 and, assuming similar quality, then I make it for £1. Duuuuh?

The reason these industries are moved to poorer countries is because they are more productive, Cheeze. That much is patently, blindingly obvious.

2. Yes.....except they aren't. The Third World is still a shithole, now ore so, because of idiocy like fairtrade, and, in fact, most of the charitable efforts made by the West in our continual, fumbling blindness.

3. So.....as I pointed out earlier, raised prices = drop in the overall standard of living. Now, I'm not much of a humanitarian, but even I don't approve of lowering a nation's overall standard of living for no reason other than slaking the consciences of idiots.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Please point me to the section that demands that all workers be paid the same absolute amount no matter what the local market conditions are.

well i never said an absolute thing, i gave several examples of what they are doing now and made up numbers

however you actually read it, it's about paying the farmers more money so they afford things and live better.

it says so right in the fist 2 lines of the header and also in other spots in the article

Yeah, I know it does, but you said the problem with Fair Trade is that "what we'd consider horrendous treatment" actually "allows the person to have his own apartment, own car and live very well."

You were criticizing Fair Trade on the basis of it not recognizing that just because we're paying less money than we would for the same product manufactured at home, that doesn't mean the workers are being exploited.

I have no idea how you get that out of anything in that article, especially the first two lines.

well let's look at the second line. i will bold the important parts for you, that you somehow can't see

The movement advocates the payment of a higher price to producers as well as social and environmental standards in areas related to the production of a wide variety of goods. It focuses in particular on exports from developing countries to developed countries, most notably handicrafts, coffee, cocoa, sugar, tea, bananas, honey, cotton, wine, fresh fruit, chocolate and flowers.

now being paid more money, means you have more money and therefore can afford more things, this is the way money works and purchasing of stuff works

and actually i was giving examples of how we misconstrue things, something you aren't realizing and aren't really grasping, what we might think of as horrible treatment, they might find to be great because they can live fairly comfortably in the lifestyle they want. you are trying to confuse this with the fact that my examples happened to use stuff that we are accustomed to, which was not my point at all but just happened to be included with my examples

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/02/eveningnews/main5205416.shtml

Pollution bothers me much more.

this is on topic...