Fallout 4's new DLCs a bit lore-unfriendly?

IceForce

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I'm sure there will probably be some long-standing Fallout enthusiasts who will scoff at this (ie: believing that Bethesda butchered the lore looong before now), but even so, here are a couple of the new DLCs for Fallout 4:



The first one (Contraptions) is already out, and the next one (Vault-Tec Workshop) is coming out very soon.

But something's bugging me about these DLCs, they both seem rather lore-unfriendly. Especially the one that lets you build your own vault and experiment on vault dwellers. How does Bethesda intend on shoehorning that into the lore exactly? I thought no vaults had been built since before the war, and no one has the industrial manufacturing capabilities to build a new vault anyway, even if they wanted to.

I also want to draw attention to the Contraptions DLC too (first video), and specifically the new ability to fire "Weather change shells" from a mortar to instantly change the weather.
What is the in-lore explanation for how these work? I guess I can kinda suspend my disbelief for the rad storm shell (since it's probably a 'dirty bomb' like device that sprays radioactive material into the clouds and causes a rad storm), but how can a mortar shell change the weather to rain? or clear? It doesn't make sense.

Anyone else bugged by these DLCs and thinking the same as me?
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Well technically you can salvage the vault parts into making a city, but using it to do the reverse is a first. That is how Shady Sands and Vault City got founded. You run into a ghoul overseer who has blueprints iirc and shows you have to build your own vault style bomb shelter or make a Vault City in the Commonwealth.

And mortal shells to change weather isn't too far off. Think of it as an explosive way to seed the sky with rainclouds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding
 

Cap'nPipsqueak

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IceForce said:
I'm sure there will probably be some long-standing Fallout enthusiasts who will scoff at this (ie: believing that Bethesda butchered the lore looong before now), but even so, here are a couple of the new DLCs for Fallout 4:



The first one (Contraptions) is already out, and the next one (Vault-Tec Workshop) is coming out very soon.

But something's bugging me about these DLCs, they both seem rather lore-unfriendly. Especially the one that lets you build your own vault and experiment on vault dwellers. How does Bethesda intend on shoehorning that into the lore exactly? I thought no vaults had been built since before the war, and no one has the industrial manufacturing capabilities to build a new vault anyway, even if they wanted to.

I also want to draw attention to the Contraptions DLC too (first video), and specifically the new ability to fire "Weather change shells" from a mortar to instantly change the weather.
What is the in-lore explanation for how these work? I guess I can kinda suspend my disbelief for the rad storm shell (since it's probably a 'dirty bomb' like device that sprays radioactive material into the clouds and causes a rad storm), but how can a mortar shell change the weather to rain? or clear? It doesn't make sense.

Anyone else bugged by these DLCs and thinking the same as me?
If you're that bothered about them, just think of them as mods.
 

FalloutJack

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IceForce said:
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Well, looks like a job for me. Comment incoming.

Let's do weather first. This is actually an easy one. You may recall the importance, nay focus in some cases, of the Garden of Eden Creation Kit, a device which changes the area you are in from a deadland to a living, fertile area that you can expect to build a home, farm, or whatever on. How it works ranges from being a compact plebotnium chemistry set to being a Genesis Device. One thing that can definitely be agreed upon is that it changes the current natural state of what it's used on. Possibly, you could create a device based upon this that alters the weather.

As for the more workshop-related thing, ESPECIALLY on the case of the creation of a Vault, I have to ask if this is a 'user-created content' thing where you're suddenly the Sim City god at work, OR if it's literally in the game, the Sole Survivor creating a Vault, say? If it's the former, no harm done. You're out-of-character at the time. If it's the latter, I have to ask if all the observations of a ridiculous cost for drilling a Vault, creating its halls from materials, making the generators, and whatever else is going on in here is being observed. If it's not, then I have to say they're definitely drawing outside the lines. If they are, then that would mean they're catering to even the weirdest desires of the crafting system with some consistancy, no matter how bizarre the idea is.

And that's the FalloutJack take on things.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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My head canon on this is that the "story DLC" (Automatron, Far Harbor, Nuka World) are meant as actual "in-universe" DLCs, part of the Fallout lore and canon. The "building DLC" (like the two above) are not intended to be strictly "in-universe" but rather to let the player goof of within the settlement construction mode. This means allowing the player to change the weather at whim, construct arenas where you can have deathclaws fight to the death or even making your own vault.

That's just how I justify it to myself though. I am not terribly good with the construction mode to begin with, but it is hilarious to create a rickety shack plastered with all manners of neon lights and surrounded by enough traps to kill a Mutant Behemoth twenty times over.
 

Dalisclock

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I haven't gotten around to playing FO4 yet(I'm waiting for all the DLC to release and then buy everything in one package, after my experience from FO3 and FO:NV), but seeing all of these DLC built around crafting, it's really hard not to assume that somehow FO4 ended being more of a Post-apocalyptic settlement builder rather then an RPG/action game. I've only tagentially been following the whole FO4 thing since it dropped so I may be wrong.

Am I assuming correctly or is the building part of the game just getting a lot more attention then you'd normally expect?
 

Wrex Brogan

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...I mean, there's already been the DLC where you could build cages for gunners and Raiders which are just metal boxes with 'CAPS' or 'DRUGS' painted on 'em, so I've always felt the Building DLC are the light side of the lore, with all the bigger DLCs like Far Harbor being the ones that keep shit on the rails for 5 minutes.
 

sXeth

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The main game of FO4 includes aliens (and people becoming immortal by injecting themselves with alien blood), people being able to build a functional mobile base airship, the Institute having the manufacturing ability to churn out hundreds of synths, seemingly the BOS having a way to build and maintain Vertibirds, a functional fusion device, working Printing Presses, and the ability to build dozens of things out of random scrap materials (Some that look salvaged, some that do not, including functioning electrical terminals, tesla coils, and weapons platforms).

Digging a hole in the ground doesn't seem ludicrously farfetched. There are even engineers who have experience maintaining or even rebuilding broken Vault-Tec in the functional Vault you visit in the game. There's also fully operational factories in their area, like Cambridge Polymer. Along with various pre-war persons (The Survivor, Nick Valentine (his memories, anyways), the Cabots, several Ghouls, etc) who might have at least a grasp of basic fundamentals of their age, or even just the concepts for more science/engineering oriented people to apply.
 

Sonmi

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Bethesda butchered the lore looong before now. Super Mutants on the East Coast and Washington still being in rubble being the main offenders.

The pre-war Jet shipment thing was the thing that pushed me over the edge concerning the series, honestly, and the development team's response to criticism of continuity errors ("Who the fuck cares? It's just a game") only further reinforced my decision to never pay full price for a Bethesda game ever again.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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If you can take the previous juggernaut lore of Fallout seriously, I'm sure there's a plentitude of convoluted rationalisations to create or pick from, if it eases the mind somewhat. But this is hardly the least believable part of the fallout mess. As much as I enjoy the games, taking their world seriously is a lost cause and a waste of valuable neuron energy. Otherwise you're trying to knit a neat winter jumper from a pile of knotted, frayed short bits of wool of varying sizes and quality.
I don't think Bethesda were ever really taking their worlds that seriously anyhow, a lot of it is just there for the fun of it, with some hastily thought up reasoning afterwards. Hate to break it to you, but a lot of creators do work that way. Understanding is one step towards overcoming. :)
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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I feel like this...puritanical take on Fallout lore is a little misguided. Its like when people thought Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was goofy and unrealistic, totally forgetting the part where God's angels kill a bunch of Nazis, a Knight over 500 years old tries to kill a Nazi, and Voodoo curses make everyone want to rip hearts out.

Fallout has always been goofy! Always. Since day 1!
 

pookie101

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cant really explain the weather changing shells apart from cloud seeding or some sort of magical super science like they have in game.

as for the vault tec worskshop seems very much like a prewar vault that was started, had everything there plan wise but was never completed or properly started, as for experimenting.. how much of a bastard do you want to be
 

Zombie Proof

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I'm roll playing a dude who woke up after cryo sleeping through an apocalypse for some 200 + years. From my character's perspective, all bets are off. Anything goes lol.
 

Odbarc

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As I recall there's a lot of funky and strange things that aren't really explained the best. To say that one more new thing is where you cross the line seems a little premature.
Cryogenic freezing and preservation of human life is probably a lot more unrealistic than a 'weather bomb'. At the very least I've seen a guy make a lightning firework somehow and it was neat.

There's that one guy who became a tree. Gerald? Henry?



Frankly, making my own vault seems like the only DLC I'm actually interested in. I'm pretty glad I didn't buy the season pass. I never really found that the kind of added content put into games has really been all that interesting for me. It takes you away from everything and puts you in a new place where you basically do the same things for different reasons or people.
The best I could do at the moment is dress people up in random vault suits I come across.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Fallout's pretty much just a goofy cartoon series with zero coherence, sense, or complexity to its world rules. Anything goes [footnote]...apart from roles to play - F4 is kinda like an anti-RP RPG[/footnote].
 

Sonmi

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Silentpony said:
I feel like this...puritanical take on Fallout lore is a little misguided. Its like when people thought Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was goofy and unrealistic, totally forgetting the part where God's angels kill a bunch of Nazis, a Knight over 500 years old tries to kill a Nazi, and Voodoo curses make everyone want to rip hearts out.

Fallout has always been goofy! Always. Since day 1!
Magic and Aliens are not one and the same. Magic in Indiana Jones felt like a coherent part of the fictional universe while aliens didn't, there's nothing much more to it.

Also, the first Fallout wasn't exactly what I'd call "goofy". It had funny moments, but it was mostly grounded in a pessimist and serious atmosphere. Fallout 2 is the one who threw the somber tone away to turn the series into the "whacky pop culture reference" sideshow it eventually became.
 

Avnger

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Sonmi said:
Silentpony said:
I feel like this...puritanical take on Fallout lore is a little misguided. Its like when people thought Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was goofy and unrealistic, totally forgetting the part where God's angels kill a bunch of Nazis, a Knight over 500 years old tries to kill a Nazi, and Voodoo curses make everyone want to rip hearts out.

Fallout has always been goofy! Always. Since day 1!
Magic and Aliens are not one and the same. Magic in Indiana Jones felt like a coherent part of the fictional universe while aliens didn't, there's nothing much more to it.

Also, the first Fallout wasn't exactly what I'd call "goofy". It had funny moments, but it was mostly grounded in a pessimist and serious atmosphere. Fallout 2 is the one who threw the somber tone away to turn the series into the "whacky pop culture reference" sideshow it eventually became.
The thing that bugs me personally though is that, from my experience, the ones who take a more puritanical (as @Silentpony said) generally only tear apart Fallout 3, New Vegas (to a less extent), and Fallout 4. The first two games are given a complete pass and New Vegas is spared a lot of it as well; it comes across as more of a dislike of Bethesda than any true care about the lore.

Aside: I dare anyone to name a series that has a completely consistent lore over multiple games
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Odbarc said:
There's that one guy who became a tree. Gerald? Henry?
Harold. A recurring character from Fo1 and Fo2. In Fallout 1 he served as an important exposition character by telling the player about FEV, Mariposa Military Base and the origins of the Master. In fallout 2 he was mostly in as a continuity nod, with the added visual gag that the small branch on his head had grown quite a lot in the years between the games. Fallout 3 retained him as a continuity nod and turned the whole visual gag into a body-horror quest hook.

Sonmi said:
Also, the first Fallout wasn't exactly what I'd call "goofy". It had funny moments, but it was mostly grounded in a pessimist and serious atmosphere. Fallout 2 is the one who threw the somber tone away to turn the series into the "whacky pop culture reference" sideshow it eventually became.
If anything Fallout 1 has an optimistic atmosphere. While it has a dark tone and a grim approach, it is also a game about the perseverance of humanity and how even the apocalypse can't keep humanity from prospering. While it features a lot of nasty people, both Shady Sands and the Followers of the Apocalypse share a positive vibe and the game really drives home that the Vaults were essentially pointless as humanity survived well enough without them. It is a mostly serious game though, seeing as how it was based on movies and comics from the 80's.
 

Sonmi

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Avnger said:
Sonmi said:
Silentpony said:
I feel like this...puritanical take on Fallout lore is a little misguided. Its like when people thought Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was goofy and unrealistic, totally forgetting the part where God's angels kill a bunch of Nazis, a Knight over 500 years old tries to kill a Nazi, and Voodoo curses make everyone want to rip hearts out.

Fallout has always been goofy! Always. Since day 1!
Magic and Aliens are not one and the same. Magic in Indiana Jones felt like a coherent part of the fictional universe while aliens didn't, there's nothing much more to it.

Also, the first Fallout wasn't exactly what I'd call "goofy". It had funny moments, but it was mostly grounded in a pessimist and serious atmosphere. Fallout 2 is the one who threw the somber tone away to turn the series into the "whacky pop culture reference" sideshow it eventually became.
The thing that bugs me personally though is that, from my experience, the ones who take a more puritanical (as @Silentpony said) generally only tear apart Fallout 3, New Vegas (to a less extent), and Fallout 4. The first two games are given a complete pass and New Vegas is spared a lot of it as well; it comes across as more of a dislike of Bethesda than any true care about the lore.

Aside: I dare anyone to name a series that has a completely consistent lore over multiple games
In all fairness, New Vegas handled the topic of lore consistency far better than either Bethesda games did, Obsidian usually puts considerably more detail into world building than the average dev. I do agree that people are far too lax on Fallout 2 in general though, things like talking Giant Mole Rats are simply absurd. Dean Richardson was a poor as hell antagonist as well, and nobody gave two shits about Frank Horrigan, making the final confrontation with him completely anti-climatic for a lot of players. How it ever got to be considered the better Fallout game is beyond me.

As far as I am concerned, it goes F1 > F:NV >>> F2 > F4 > F3. (Tactics and Brotherhood blow, and aren't canon in any case)

Mother was pretty damned consistent as far as lore and story goes.

Also, the problem with the Fallout series is that the world was so well crafted in the first two instalments, which makes into discrepancy all the more blatant. For instance, Death Claws and Super Mutants had perfectly valid reasons to exist where they existed in the context of Fallout 1, but Fallout 3 takes place in a completely different locale where Deathclaws had no reason to exist, and where Super Mutants had no reason to migrate, with the whole Vault experiment explanation for their presence being a complete asspull that ignores that Super Mutants were a post-war accident. The whole problem is that Bethesda doesn't really care about creating a consistent lore, see their attitude to the pre-war Jet debacle. That shit could have been patched with minor effort, but instead they responded with disdain to the fan who pointed out the anachronism.
 

Sonmi

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Gethsemani said:
If anything Fallout 1 has an optimistic atmosphere. While it has a dark tone and a grim approach, it is also a game about the perseverance of humanity and how even the apocalypse can't keep humanity from prospering. While it features a lot of nasty people, both Shady Sands and the Followers of the Apocalypse share a positive vibe and the game really drives home that the Vaults were essentially pointless as humanity survived well enough without them. It is a mostly serious game though, seeing as how it was based on movies and comics from the 80's.
I don't know about optimistic. The Followers of the Apocalypse most certainly embody everything good about mankind, but they are relatively weak, and most of those who managed to survive (and even thrive) post-nuclear fallout did it at the price of moral integrity. Vault City is inhabited by a bunch of closed-minded elitist borderline racist snobs, Junktown is a corrupt hole and trying to restore order to it only worsens the situation in the epilogue, the technocratic BoS are a bunch of murderous xenophobic shitheads, and even Shady Sands later turns into a bureaucratic mess bound to repeat the mistakes of old... and that's without talking about the Hubologists and the mutants.

While humanity stayed physically strong in face of the apocalypse, morals generally went to shit everywhere. (Not that the old world was perfect, they were also shitheads, as the Enclave in 2 can show us)