Fallout: New Vegas Dev weighs in on Skyrim's PS3 Lag Issues

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I'm imagining that people would not have waited the extra year or two for them to come out before other games took the spotlight away from them.

So you would prefer to have a game, now, that's buggy and borderline unplayable rather than risk seeing it delayed against a competitor that may not may not be better? That's like buying a cheap car that will fall apart rather than save a bit longer for one that wont.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

The interesting thing I find here isn't that the engine is faulty, it does what it has to (perhaps a bit inefficiently), but that the consoles have so little RAM available.

Consoles probably don't need as much RAM as your average PC, because I doubt the OS takes a big chunk out of it, but some games (and more to come I guess) benefit from having several gigs of RAM.

Here's hoping the next generation of consoles doesn't skimp on RAM.

Consoles are getting up there to the level that they can almost match what a PC can do, at least for 3 or 4 months from Day 1 of release. Except dividing RAM between CPU and graphics, PCs stopped doing that more than a decade ago. Never really got why they put so little RAM in a console, they are just bottle-necking themselves.

 

[draythefingerless]

Its just a matter of editing the PS3 version so it saves less data. Or that it keeps it for shorter time.

 

[Rack]

Hang on, doesn't Skyrim use the Creation engine, not Gamebryo? I'm sure they share a similar base, but still.

I heard the Creation engine Bethesda made for Skyrim was heavily based off Gamebryo but I'm unsure how true that is.

It's the same as the Gamebryo engine being based off the NetImmerse engine, the engine Morrowind uses.

So basically, it's as much of a difference from the Gamebryo engine as the Gamebryo engine is a difference from the NetImmerse engine. Personally, I see it all as iterations of a core engine. A core engine that seems to be broken, by the looks of it. And yet they're still selling it.

If anyone else sold a broken product like this, the backlash would be insane. Not sure why or how Bethesda gets away with it so easily.

Because herp derp Skyrim dragons GotY.

Dazzling display of logic and grasp of the issues you have there.

 

[Jadak]

I'm getting a new PC in the new year so I might get that version instead but I dont want to give these bloody cretins any more money or its like I'm rewarding them for releasing an unfinished game.

Fundamentally flawed, not unfinished.

 

[Pipotchi]

I'm getting a new PC in the new year so I might get that version instead but I dont want to give these bloody cretins any more money or its like I'm rewarding them for releasing an unfinished game.

Fundamentally flawed, not unfinished.

This seems like a semantic argument, if its lagging so bad that it cannot be finished I dont think unfinished is an unfair term.

You say Tomato I say unfnished and so on

 

[Sneezeguard]

You mean you guys didn't know this? All these supposed hardcore super nerds on Escapist, and people are shocked that the single biggest change the new engine build brought to Skyrim was way the snow in game falls.

This is why they weren't going to bother releasing Skyrim this generation. There isn't a patch that can fix this, everything you alter in the game is saved, and every save adds to the ultimate flaw of the engine. It simply cannot cope.

But wait, Bethesda isn't EA or Bioware. Fuck sake people, Bethesda put out a game with some potentially critical holes in its engine FFS, and people don't really care. But give ME 'fans' the option to play online with other people, just the OPTION, and the shit can't fly fast enough...

To quote myself from another thread.

Wouldn't the most logical option be to create a program that clears unnecessary data? sure those fork on the floor of that inn in Winter hold will reset but I'd prefer that to the game breaking.

couldn't they just do that?

 

[Jadak]

I'm getting a new PC in the new year so I might get that version instead but I dont want to give these bloody cretins any more money or its like I'm rewarding them for releasing an unfinished game.

Fundamentally flawed, not unfinished.

This seems like a semantic argument, if its lagging so bad that it cannot be finished I dont think unfinished is an unfair term.

You say Tomato I say unfnished and so on

Really not the case. Unfinished would imply that it that spending more time on it could resolve the issue, and perhaps that's even possible. But what we have here is a problem with the framework of how the game was structured in the first place, not something that can be "finished" to make it better.

 

[Demix]

Still love skyrim, despite what looks like to be my inevitable battle with lag vs fun. (I haven't hit it yet)

On a side note anyone else not impressed with the pessimists and anyone going "gamebryo with new paint!/ unfinished game". I'm kinda waiting for them to make their own game engine.
Also whoever manages to actually improve it could stand to profit from it.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Hang on, doesn't Skyrim use the Creation engine, not Gamebryo? I'm sure they share a similar base, but still.

I heard the Creation engine Bethesda made for Skyrim was heavily based off Gamebryo but I'm unsure how true that is.

It's the same as the Gamebryo engine being based off the NetImmerse engine, the engine Morrowind uses.

So basically, it's as much of a difference from the Gamebryo engine as the Gamebryo engine is a difference from the NetImmerse engine. Personally, I see it all as iterations of a core engine. A core engine that seems to be broken, by the looks of it. And yet they're still selling it.

If anyone else sold a broken product like this, the backlash would be insane. Not sure why or how Bethesda gets away with it so easily.

Because herp derp Skyrim dragons GotY.

Dazzling display of logic and grasp of the issues you have there.

I could've explained it far more eloquently, but why do that when I can sum it up in three words and a phrase? I mean, that is why Bethesda is getting away with it. Which unless I completely misunderstood his post, was his possibly rhetorical question that I answered anyways.

 

[Pipotchi]

I'm getting a new PC in the new year so I might get that version instead but I dont want to give these bloody cretins any more money or its like I'm rewarding them for releasing an unfinished game.

Fundamentally flawed, not unfinished.

This seems like a semantic argument, if its lagging so bad that it cannot be finished I dont think unfinished is an unfair term.

You say Tomato I say unfnished and so on

Really not the case. Unfinished would imply that it that spending more time on it could resolve the issue, and perhaps that's even possible. But what we have here is a problem with the framework of how the game was structured in the first place, not something that can be "finished" to make it better.

But as you say it may be possible to spend more time on it and resolve the issue. If thats the case then they should have done that before releasing the game therefore I consider the game unfinished

I dont feel unfinished and flawed are mutually exclusive here, I'm not disputing that the flaw is buried in the game's framework somewhere, just that whatever they are doing re patchs should have been done pre release or they should have warned PS3 users/written off the PS3 version

 

[Frostbite3789]

I'm getting a new PC in the new year so I might get that version instead but I dont want to give these bloody cretins any more money or its like I'm rewarding them for releasing an unfinished game.

Fundamentally flawed, not unfinished.

This seems like a semantic argument, if its lagging so bad that it cannot be finished I dont think unfinished is an unfair term.

You say Tomato I say unfnished and so on

Really not the case. Unfinished would imply that it that spending more time on it could resolve the issue, and perhaps that's even possible. But what we have here is a problem with the framework of how the game was structured in the first place, not something that can be "finished" to make it better.

Is broken at it's core a better phrase?

 

[JoesshittyOs]

Proof that the Creation engine is just gamebryo with a new coat of pant and glitter sprinkled on.

And yet Bethesda, of course, get away with it.

What exactly leads you to believe "they are getting away with it"?

I've seen 3 or 4 different responses on this thread alone snidely remarking about them copping out.

Plus, they have every right to get a free pass. It's Bethesda. They make good big games. They're gonna have problems like this.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

On a side note anyone else not impressed with the pessimists and anyone going "gamebryo with new paint!/ unfinished game". I'm kinda waiting for them to make their own game engine.

You don't need a working knowledge of how to create a game engine to see that when a company advertises a game as having a new engine that it's not often completely new, and frequently some of the core architecture gets preserved between different iterations of tech. All you need to see that is a little critical thinking.

 

[Sneezeguard]

Wouldn't the most logical option be to create a program that clears unnecessary data? sure those fork on the floor of that inn in Winter hold will reset but I'd prefer that to the game breaking.

couldn't they just do that?

I think in another article thery mention that the possibility of that idea doesn't work in practice because there is so much saved to the core memory and altered from it's original state.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps3-skyrim-lag

The try loading a totally scratch character onto a game that has also had a 65 hour gamplay, and the problems they had on their big save carry on over to the new one. I'm not totally sure if that completely answers your question on not, but it points to some pretty hefty shit going on in the deep layers of the build, that I don't think a simple change to the reset schedule would fix...

Could work though, I imagine some modder somewhere will give it a crack, if you're on PC that is.

Thanks for the link, it's nice to hear about this from a more technical stand point, even though my technical knowledge is amateurish at best.

I was reading through the comments of that site you linked and read this

"Certainly on New Vegas I had to use a mod that regularly purged unused cell buffers from memory to reduce crashing and keep performance ticking over nicely in long play sessions. Some sort of "purge memory" option in the menu might be a temporary band-aid, even if you had to do it every 30 minutes."

It basically the same idea. It would help but if the problem's a memory leak it will only go so far, especially if the leak is linked to something that can not be easily reset or deleted.

They might be able to plug the leak but depending on where it coming from those saves maybe be irrepairable or it's might reset quest-lines and areas to clear the waste data eating up memory and Ram it takes to process it.
And also turn your console on and off helps clear the garbage collector (but I guess everyone kinda already does that ).

 

[Demix]

You don't need a working knowledge of how to create a game engine to see that when a company advertises a game as having a new engine that it's not often completely new, and frequently some of the core architecture gets preserved between different iterations of tech. All you need to see that is a little critical thinking.

Yea but when do you actually see something completely new without having it's base in something that's already been created? Fact is, it is a new engine and most of the time new things are far from perfect. Skyrim is still a great game and it looks beautiful, I just get a little ticked when more then a few claim foul like they did something horrible.

I hadn't actually heard anyone else say anything about ram space until skyrim's lag issues, so I think it's good that it's been high lighted as an issue for developers (and console developers too) to work on.

 

[GonzoGamer]

You know this explains alot. When I strated my fallout 3 game it ran just fine but when it got close to the final encounter it was particaly unplayble. I started to notice it in new vegas as well but no where near as bad as fallout 3. Well here's hopeing that the'll come up with a vibal soultion to this problem

That's the thing that really pisses me off about this...and I'm a pretty laid back guy.
Everyone knew about this. Not just the devs and the modders. Everyone knew about this problem. That?s why every Bethesda game released was quickly followed by a long lists of things to do in the game to make it run. Things like don?t touch/loot anything or the opposite tactic, pick up and sell everything you find. So they had to have known about it.
Yet they make a big deal about creating a whole new engine that?s supposed to fix all those old problems (people actually believe them for some reason) but they build into it the same things that were causing all of the crashes in the first place. Or maybe it really is the same engine with just a few minor adjustments.
Either way, this is getting to be borderline (it may not even be borderline at this point) criminal and they should be glad they just make games. Any other group of consumers would be suing at this point.

The funny thing is that as outraged as everyone sounds, I'm betting most of them are going to believe whatever PR Bethesda spots about their next game and run out to pre-order it anyway. So nothings going to change.

 

[weirdee]

I'm just saying, this is all of the opinion on one side of the results, but if it were the other way, I would never hear anybody say "glad they took the time to take the bugs out" because nobody would KNOW that there were bugs, and you'd be hearing people complain about them taking too long.

Anyway, show of hands, who here arguing against this issue a) actually owns the game, and b) owns the console version, thereby having more issues because people clamored for a console version since they thought PC versions were stupid even though this engine was originally developed for PCs?

not that consoles are bad, it's just that bethesda is bad at consoles and at this point they're being held at gunpoint to give them priority for updates