Female Perspective - Friend Zone

[Turing]

"if a guy waits too long to ask you out, you will no longer consider him a possible romantic partner"

^This is what I am referring to when I say friend zone

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

Yeah, that sounds pretty much 100% correct, at least based on my 13 years of experience with relationships of various forms.

 

[LKArtillery]

If a guy waits too long? What, is there some sort of time limit? Does a guy have X amount of days to express his feelings?

Romance isn't a carton of eggs. It doesn't have an expiration date.

 

[dstryfe]

Or, alternately, dudes could just start interpreting a "no, but I still like you as a friend" as "no, but I still like you as a friend" instead of "reply hazy try again."

Hah. Yeah...I like to think that I see the replies that way. It's simple, but taking things at face value is often the right way to take them.

The friend zone is fine with me...after all, the only real difference is that I'm not paying for her meals and movie tickets.

 

[Dragonborne88]

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

A good, informative opinion that was an excellent read. Thanks for giving it, and writing it in a non-biased way.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

Having thought about this issue some more, I'm really starting to wish that guys would just drop the whole "friends zone" thing and be honest with themselves. How about, instead of saying "I really liked this girl but she friend zoned me", you just say "I really liked this girl but she wasn't sexually interested in me, although she apparently didn't mind my personality despite my latent misogyny. I then found it very difficult to deal with and accept her unspoken or spoken rejection. I became angry and embittered, went into denial, and started blaming the girl for her heinous crime of not wanting to have sex with me"?

Less snappy, sure. But accurate.

Only if you ignore the fact that the guys who get friend zoned only stay there because of the mixed messages the girl is sending them. Guys who have been friend zoned have good reason to be bitter; the girl they're attracted to has been leading them on, potentially (read:frequently) for months. And yes, I do mean leading them on -- the put down that puts one in the friend zone always leaves just a sliver of hope. It's usually a variation of "it's not you, it's me," and if the "let's just be friends" speech is there, it's almost always tacked on at the end of something like "I'm not looking for a boyfriend right now, but we can be friends!" Instead of turning you down, the girl makes it look like she'd totally be dating you if there weren't other factors in her life. It's manipulative, and its very real.

Remember how I said that the "friends zone" guy finds rejection hard to accept? Yeah, that still applies. Any guy who sees hope in those sorts of responses is delusional. The girl only leaves that (minuscule) amount of wiggle room in her rejection because she doesn't want to make the guy feel bad and destroy his self-esteem. Far from manipulative, it's actually intended as an act of kindness - letting him down gently.

Is it the right thing to do? No, I don't think so. I think with that sort of guy it's better to be brutally honest: it's quicker, cleaner, and gets the message across properly rather than forcing him to accept implications that he doesn't want to see. But we can't blame the girl who does this; probably she genuinely likes the guy's personality and doesn't want to hurt him.

Also, the girl has usually not been "leading him on". Wanting to be friends with someone is not manipulating them. It could be "leading him on" if she was overly flirty or seductive around him, but usually she isn't. Only friendly.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Having thought about this issue some more, I'm really starting to wish that guys would just drop the whole "friends zone" thing and be honest with themselves. How about, instead of saying "I really liked this girl but she friend zoned me", you just say "I really liked this girl but she wasn't sexually interested in me, although she apparently didn't mind my personality despite my latent misogyny. I then found it very difficult to deal with and accept her unspoken or spoken rejection. I became angry and embittered, went into denial, and started blaming the girl for her heinous crime of not wanting to have sex with me"?

Less snappy, sure. But accurate.

Only if you ignore the fact that the guys who get friend zoned only stay there because of the mixed messages the girl is sending them. Guys who have been friend zoned have good reason to be bitter; the girl they're attracted to has been leading them on, potentially (read:frequently) for months. And yes, I do mean leading them on -- the put down that puts one in the friend zone always leaves just a sliver of hope. It's usually a variation of "it's not you, it's me," and if the "let's just be friends" speech is there, it's almost always tacked on at the end of something like "I'm not looking for a boyfriend right now, but we can be friends!" Instead of turning you down, the girl makes it look like she'd totally be dating you if there weren't other factors in her life. It's manipulative, and its very real.

Remember how I said that the "friends zone" guy finds rejection hard to accept? Yeah, that still applies. Any guy who sees hope in those sorts of responses is delusional. The girl only leaves that (minuscule) amount of wiggle room in her rejection because she doesn't want to make the guy feel bad and destroy his self-esteem. Far from manipulative, it's actually intended as an act of kindness - letting him down gently.

Is it the right thing to do? No, I don't think so. I think with that sort of guy it's better to be brutally honest: it's quicker, cleaner, and gets the message across properly rather than forcing him to accept implications that he doesn't want to see. But we can't blame the girl who does this; probably she genuinely likes the guy's personality and doesn't want to hurt him.

Also, the girl has usually not been "leading him on". Wanting to be friends with someone is not manipulating them. It could be "leading him on" if she was overly flirty or seductive around him, but usually she isn't. Only friendly.

Let me put it this way: it's not just a certain type of guy. All guys are stupid when it comes to dating. It is inherently dishonest to leave that sliver of hope, not to mention cruel. Speaking from experience, it hurts a hell of a lot less in the long run, for both parties, just to honestly say no. And yeah, it is leading him on; by the time she friend zones him, she knows exactly what he wants. She keeps giving him a sliver of hope that he'll eventually get it, but he never does. How is that not leading him on?

Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

 

[high_castle]

Let me put it this way: it's not just a certain type of guy. All guys are stupid when it comes to dating. It is inherently dishonest to leave that sliver of hope, not to mention cruel. Speaking from experience, it hurts a hell of a lot less in the long run, for both parties, just to honestly say no. And yeah, it is leading him on; by the time she friend zones him, she knows exactly what he wants. She keeps giving him a sliver of hope that he'll eventually get it, but he never does. How is that not leading him on?


Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Here's how the friend zone works for me: if I know you long enough and like you as a friend, I might not want to date you to risk messing that up. But I don't want to stop hanging around you, either. So hopefully we can preserve a pre-existing friendship.

Now, I don't believe in friend-zoning someone I go out with once or twice. Why? Because if I'm not interested in dating you, it's probably because there's something about you I fundamentally dislike. I'm pretty uncomplicated and I don't believe in stringing anyone along. If I find out something about you that I don't like or can't reconcile, why would I want to be friends with you? And you're right, the whole "we can still be friends" line is just that. It's a line

But here's the thing: you need to recognize it as a line. Just like "now's not a good time for me," "it's not you, it's me." If you're being strung along, than it's your fault. These are textbook breakup lines, and maybe they're not as straightforward as "I don't want to see you anymore," but the meaning's the same. So don't hang onto a sliver of hope. There is none. It's just an attempt by some girls (and guys) to do the same.

All this being said, I'm so not the gal to go to for this kind of advice or perspective. I take the three week exit with just about everyone I date.

 

[shitoutonme]

In my personal experience, this is largely true. Granted, it may vary for different women, but it has to do with how (perhaps) a large number of women connect with their sexuality. For (perhaps) a large number of us, we interact with guys in one of two ways: mate, or mama. With (PERHAPS) most women, once you enter the "friend zone", you might as well be her brother or son. You're an obligation she has to take care of and groom--maybe not an unwelcome one, but that's what you are.

It's not hopeless, you *can* get back over to the "I'm actually male" side, but you're going to need to demonstrate some significant independence and even indifference in order to do so. You're going to have to stop being a needy hanger-on of the woman you like and start being a rock she can either lean on or pummel without affecting it much.

And if you prefer not to wind up in the friend zone accidentally, don't act like a girl. If a woman wants to talk to you about her feelings/problems/whatever, sure, go on and listen. But don't *empathize*. (And don't try to "fix" her problems by pointing out what she's doing wrong, that'll put you in the "jerk" zone.) You don't have to listen with interest (in fact, it's better that you don't), but do listen with PATIENCE. When she starts to wind down, make some comment that shows you were at least paying attention, but don't agree with her that Shirl is a ***** or her boss totally doesn't pay her enough or whatever. It feels good to know that someone who isn't particularly interested in your problems nevertheless is willing to listen and pay attention while you blither. And the indifference to the problems themselves (not to you) makes you feel even better, because they start feeling like little problems.

A good, informative opinion that was an excellent read. Thanks for giving it, and writing it in a non-biased way.

Good Lord, I wouldn't say that, but yeah, Ms. Snow speaks truth. Unfortunately, this means that a lot of guys are going to have change who they are in order to accommodate women the way they want to be accommodated.

Everything that Ms. Snow said solidifies my belief about many women being compulsive liars of sorts. Although Ms. Snow here seems quite self-aware, practical, and realistic, others would advise you that the best way to attract/get a girl is to "be yourself," and according to the truth-telling Ms. Snow, this is utterly false. I could go on, but I gotta head out for work. Maybe I'll tl;dr about this later...

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Let me put it this way: it's not just a certain type of guy. All guys are stupid when it comes to dating. It is inherently dishonest to leave that sliver of hope, not to mention cruel. Speaking from experience, it hurts a hell of a lot less in the long run, for both parties, just to honestly say no. And yeah, it is leading him on; by the time she friend zones him, she knows exactly what he wants. She keeps giving him a sliver of hope that he'll eventually get it, but he never does. How is that not leading him on?


Edit: Do girls honestly think that friend zoning a guy can help preserve his self esteem? It's the most emasculating thing on the planet. There's nothing kind about it.

Here's how the friend zone works for me: if I know you long enough and like you as a friend, I might not want to date you to risk messing that up. But I don't want to stop hanging around you, either. So hopefully we can preserve a pre-existing friendship.

Now, I don't believe in friend-zoning someone I go out with once or twice. Why? Because if I'm not interested in dating you, it's probably because there's something about you I fundamentally dislike. I'm pretty uncomplicated and I don't believe in stringing anyone along. If I find out something about you that I don't like or can't reconcile, why would I want to be friends with you? And you're right, the whole "we can still be friends" line is just that. It's a line

But here's the thing: you need to recognize it as a line. Just like "now's not a good time for me," "it's not you, it's me." If you're being strung along, than it's your fault. These are textbook breakup lines, and maybe they're not as straightforward as "I don't want to see you anymore," but the meaning's the same. So don't hang onto a sliver of hope. There is none. It's just an attempt by some girls (and guys) to do the same.

All this being said, I'm so not the gal to go to for this kind of advice or perspective. I take the three week exit with just about everyone I date.

Well I do take it as that now, I just had to learn the hard way -- the "we aren't psychic" thing does go both ways. It just gets me when people start saying things like "oh, the friend zone doesn't exist, it's just an excuse made up by guys for why they didn't get the girl," which couldn't be farther from the truth; rather, it's an explanation of why they were wasting time after the girl told them no, but in a way that, unless you're psychic or have already been through that particular wringer a few times, doesn't actually mean no. And you have the right idea; I can completely understand not wanting to date someone you've been friends with for a very long time -- although for me it's always been because it eventually gets squicky to think of them like that, not because I'm worried about ruining a friendship -- after all, mature individuals, assuming the break up was on good terms, do not have to hate each others guts just because a relationship didn't work out. If it wasn't on good terms, the friendship probably wasn't as good as you thought it was to begin with. Further, you really have the right idea by not friend zoning a guy who you don't know all that well. He initiated the contact because he had a romantic interest in you. A platonic friendship, at that point, is not going to be possible, at least not beyond a superficial level, and always with the undercurrent that the guy wants more. He'll appreciate the honesty.

 

[high_castle]

Well I do take it as that now, I just had to learn the hard way -- the "we aren't psychic" thing does go both ways. It just gets me when people start saying things like "oh, the friend zone doesn't exist, it's just an excuse made up by guys for why they didn't get the girl," which couldn't be farther from the truth; rather, it's an explanation of why they were wasting time after the girl told them no, but in a way that, unless you're psychic or have already been through that particular wringer a few times, doesn't actually mean no. And you have the right idea; I can completely understand not wanting to date someone you've been friends with for a very long time -- although for me it's always been because it eventually gets squicky to think of them like that, not because I'm worried about ruining a friendship -- after all, mature individuals, assuming the break up was on good terms, do not have to hate each others guts just because a relationship didn't work out. If it wasn't on good terms, the friendship probably wasn't as good as you thought it was to begin with. Further, you really have the right idea by not friend zoning a guy who you don't know all that well. He initiated the contact because he had a romantic interest in you. A platonic friendship, at that point, is not going to be possible, at least not beyond a superficial level, and always with the undercurrent that the guy wants more. He'll appreciate the honesty.

Well, I was speaking a bit from personal experience about the ruining a friendship thing. However good the dynamic is between friends, dating someone--at least on a serious level--is a completely different bag of chips. Especially because the tendency when dating someone you've known for a long time is to skip the wading in part (makes sense; part of dating is getting to know someone; if you already know them, why waste time with all the talking, talking, talking?). So basically it's easy to jump right into RELATIONSHIP waters: all caps, serious business. And if something doesn't work out...well, it's not easy to backslide. Not if one party still wants a relationship and the other one's completely paranoid about commitment (that would be me).

Anyway, personal business aside, I look at the friend line as standard fare now. It's in TV shows, movies, lit, etc. Really, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that she doesn't really want to be friends. It's still the cowards way out, but I stand by my assessment that everyone should know what it really means by this point unless you're a teenager and still quite new to the dating experience.

 

[Doclector]

Okay, here is the thing that truly bothers men about the friend zone, okay? Y'all better be listening, both women and misinformed males, because I ain't saying this twice.

The friend zone is not hell, in fact in can be pretty nice. However, you usually aren't sent to the friend zone. Not in my experience, anyway, and whilst I can't be sure, I'm guessing slot of people, possibly of both genders, will agree here; it is truly the fuck off zone 80% of the time. After the whole friend speech, the speech giver will probably avoid and isolate you.

Now, on rare occasion, you are genuinely friends. Which is nice.

So...friend zone=nice. Fuck off zone=for usage by people too cowardly to say they hate you.

Have we all got that? Good. Now if you excuse me, I have to get back to watching Richard Pryor.

 

[teh_v]

To High and Owyn: I'm enjoying your back and forth it's interesting to always see a girl perspective with dating stuff, High. Yet what I think the problem is at least for me is the friend zone is that make believe "what if" area that some women not all women put guys in for various reason and guys let themselves be put in that zone. Friend zone isn't "you're cool but lets just be friends" it's "you're cool but I don't RIGHT NOW want to be in a relationship so can we just stay friends" High this what I've had happen to me plenty of times. Also on the flip side most girls don't want to date their best friend or a good friend. Their best friend/good friends are where they go to get away from any sort of relationship problems they are having, why would they want to bring problems into their sanctuary. I've dated girls who were friends before but they were just friends I knew and hung out with not girls that I was close with. To be honest it's like someone said earlier its all about "why get buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" if your a unattractive guy with a great personality. A girls gonna want you for your personality not your body and if you give her your personality buy being that close friend she can talk to she never gonna wanna date you and be sexually close with you. She's getting what she wants out of the relationship so she's happy.

And to all the ladies who are mad because I'm assuming you only want hot guys remove yourself from that high horse. At least guys are honest about wanting a woman who is sexually attractive. If your choice is between two guys who have the same funny/witty/sensitive personality you love and one also has a body that you think looks amazing. I wonder who you're gonna flirt with... I know this because once I started working out a lot (to help me get over the girl I talked about earlier) I found more girls sexually attracted to me and flirting with me more. Everyone shallow just be honest about it and don't pretend like you're not. In the end everyone worse off.

 

[teh_v]

Okay, here is the thing that truly bothers men about the friend zone, okay? Y'all better be listening, both women and misinformed males, because I ain't saying this twice.

The friend zone is not hell, in fact in can be pretty nice. However, you usually aren't sent to the friend zone. Not in my experience, anyway, and whilst I can't be sure, I'm guessing slot of people, possibly of both genders, will agree here; it is truly the fuck off zone 80% of the time. After the whole friend speech, the speech giver will probably avoid and isolate you.

Now, on rare occasion, you are genuinely friends. Which is nice.

So...friend zone=nice. Fuck off zone=for usage by people too cowardly to say they hate you.

Have we all got that? Good. Now if you excuse me, I have to get back to watching Richard Pryor.

Nope the times I've been in the friends zone the girl starts talking with me more and it can be nice if the guy and the girl both don't want to move past the friends zone but if one party wants more out of the relationship then the friend zone is a painful torture of her talking about guys she likes and you wishing you were that guy. I know it's mostly guys fault for staying there that's why my advice "NEVER STAY IN A FRIENDS ZONE IF YOU WANT MORE THEN FRIENDS" leave or ask again til she leave or maybe just maybe something will happen.

 

[CompostWithin]

I still don't get this whole issue of being 'friend zoned'.
If you sincerely love a person for the way he or she is, it should not be a problem for you to accept that he/she is not romantically interested in you. If that's impossible for you, then obviously your feelings are not of a true nature - or at least not primarily for the person himself/herself.
And what reason would there be to not stay friends knowing each other's feelings? To my understanding love is a form of friendship of a higher degree. When you feel prepared to deepen a relationship you should be able to trust each other.


To those who think real friendship can only exist between members of the same sex:
We are still affected by gender roles - that way of thinking is exactly what keeps things the way they are.

 

[gallaetha_matt]

Friend zone. Pffft. I'd kill to be in the friend zone. All my old love interests just called the police on me when I tried to ask them out. I don't mind though, I'm an animal lover and since my ex-girlfriend rejected me she's adopted over a dozen rottweiler puppies that otherwise would've been destroyed.

OK I laughed at this, was that your intention or am I just a bad person?

Buddy, if you're a bad person then you've got a lot of company. Because everybody laughs at my pain. I just don't know how to make them stop - or to get their dogs to stop biting me.

But yeah, you're right I was making a joke *sniff*

This, a thousand times this.

This comic is awesome, not knocking it. But it does seem to subscribe to the notion that everybody gets one true love in their lives. Which is absurd. Everybody in the world either redefines their notion of love and romance or they die alone. In the end we all settle, because pretty much everybody has unrealistic expectations when it comes to relationships. Nothing wrong with it, it's just how we are.

I think the relationship depicted in the comic is quite a nice one. If you're happy and in love most of the time then something must be going right. Every husband, wife, girlfriend and boyfriend must sometimes question whether they're in the right relationship. It's human nature to question our choices. But again, if you're happy for most of the time you're doing better than most other couples out there.

I'm not even saying this as a defender of the 'friend zone' or whatever bollocks lonely single men have cooked up to make themselves feel better. Because I reckon the dude (I think he's a dude anyway, hard to tell with stick figures) is in the wrong too. It's a manipulative way to go about searching for a relationship. Plus he's missing out on the all the amazing girls there are out there by just focussing on one poor woman.

But I'm just a cynical old bastard. If I thought for a second that there were people in the world that were genuinely happy it'd shatter my fragile world view.

I'm not even sure how much sense that makes really since I'm half drunk right now. But that comic has been rolling around in my head all day and I felt the urge to comment on it.

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

It's just that I realize that once they part with my friends I probably won't see them much and that I'm not supposed to bother them with my shit. I know they won't run into a burning house to save me like my friends would (and I would for them).

Actually, a situation like that is mutual; if you're not supposed to bother them with your shit, they're not supposed to bother you with theirs. If she's complaining at length about the woes of an troubled relationship, you are well within your rights to complain about the woes of being single.[footnote]You'd be surprised just how intimidating a burning house can be. This is a good thing as your friends might end up going down with you from smoke inhalation during their rescue attempt, or causing the professionals distraction long enough for you to perish.[/footnote]

I just can't shake off this feeling that "cool girls" (the type I'm (probably unfortunately) attracted to) are like Cartman followers in "You have 0 friends" episode of South Park: once your stocks go down, they'll dump you without [hesitation].

This, my friend, is a strong indication that you need to redefine what you call cool.

Besides what's the point of being friends instead of being lovers with an attractive girl and what's the point in hanging around ugly women (maybe I'm yet to see a woman with fascinating personality, which I don't want to have sex with).

Because relationships (romantic or otherwise) are more than just the nookie. Frankly, you should be able to be friends with anyone, regardless of how uterus-enabled they are, though I can imagine if their hotness were distracting that could be a problem[footnote]Though this brings up a scenario: Imagine a girl who is your ideal of hot, loves to play games and engage in the same activities as you do, However, she's a carrier for a really nasty no-cure ultimately-fatal fucks-up-your-life sexually transmitted disease like HIV, and you will never, for your own safety, get it on with her. Could you be her friend? (If it makes any difference, she contracted it originally from a childhood blood transfusion.)[/footnote]

If you could only see a woman for her vagina, ergo, can only relate to her if she's hot, and then only sexually, it would be no wonder they wouldn't want anything to do with you. You have to acknowledge that they are human beings too, and require the same regard that we do our male buddies. Granted, it is a cruel trick of nature to hit our young people with such harsh sex drives, which served us well in tribal epochs in which rapine of neighboring bands was the norm, and ensured our species survive to civilization. It doesn't serve us so well now.

238U.

 

[teh_v]

From the master of the friends zone I'm here to say it is there it does exist and it sucks. Case and point I've been friend zoned before but the situation that caused me to NEVER let me be put in the friend zone is this.

-snip-

You got pwnd!

tl:dr = Nice guys finish last.


Anyway, I think your story is fairly typical (to varying degrees) of many "beta" males (that's not meant to be offensive, I'm just referring to guys who aren't terribly assertive, and are comfortable and content with letting others set the standard). It's an unfortunate reality that if you put other peoples' wants and desires above your own you're going to get taken advantage of. "Nice guys finish last".

Now girls, before you say "That's not true! I'd date a nice guy over a jerk any day!", we're using "nice" in different contexts. To use an example:

Let's say you're at a restaurant and you ask for no cucumber in your salad, but when your salad arrives it has cucumber in it. You call the waiter over, explain you asked for no cucumber and ask them for a replacement salad. Now, as long as you didn't abuse the waiter or anything, it's perfectly reasonable to expect to get what you ordered and there's nothing not-nice about asking for a replacement. A girl would have no trouble identifying you as a "nice" guy.

If, on the other hand, you said "I don't want to cause a fuss, and I can easily pick out the cucumber", you are putting the restaurant staff's happiness above your own even though they were in error, and it would be unreasonable if they got upset with you for asking for what you ordered. This is the kind of "nice" the quote "nice guys finish last" is talking about - people that willingly bear the faults of others, either through some misguided sense of duty or, as in most cases, a fear of or reluctance to engage in conflict.

Like most things, it mostly comes down to what experiences people had when they were young. If most of their experiences include fair, reasonable people then they're not going to see people as inherently unreasonable and don't expect there to be any conflict when they inform the waiter of their error. If, on the other hand, they frequently dealt with unreasonable, aggressive people in their childhood they tend to see people as being inherently unreasonable and aggressive, and so they DO expect asking for a replacement to be met with conflict, even though this is almost never the case.

I wonder if there's a correlation between child order and this personality difference. My older brother fits the former demographic, where I fit the latter. Could it be that my near constant interaction with an older, oppressive sibling was the primary cause of my irrational expectation of conflict? Probably not, but I'm curious anyway.

I totally agree. I try my hardest not to be like that anymore but it's tough to just change your nature. The reason I agree is one night, after I hung out with a girl and it didn't go the way i wanted it to, I did the dumb ass thing and called the girl I was talking about earlier half drunk... more like drunk. I asked her what happened and that if I was so amazing and such a great person and I was the standard she looked for in a guy why wouldn't she date me.(I know pathetic) The response I got back was what you said I wasn't assertive. I wasn't confident when I was around her. I always looked worried when we first were hanging out. I've asked a couple of other girls that tried to friend zone me why I wasn't dating material and that's the common answer. So yea beta male... as much as I hate the idea... you gotta sack up and take charge in what you do. Don't be an asshole jock but walk and act like you know what you want and how to get it. Even if you really don't.

 

[CrayKing]

A BIG problem with "friend zone" is that it is being used both as a descriptive for:
A) a relationship where one party has expressed romantic/sexual intentions towards the other, was rejected and still continue their relationship.
B) a relationship between a man and a woman, where neither actively pursues romantic/sexual relations with the other.

We have to seperate these two, since they are extremely different cases.
I can say for myself at least that I'm in a B) "friend zone" relationship with several women from back when i was in high school. If we consider the "ladder theory", quite a few of them are mid-high on the ladder. Nonetheless I have never pursued a romantic relationship with any of them.

You can argue that it might be because of a fear of rejection or something, and I'm not entirely confident that i can dispute that, but primarily I've build a relationship with these girls based more on entertaintment than attraction(Our friendship started with them approaching me). I've never had to be a "shoulder to cry on" for any of them, I've carried some of them home when they were too drunk, but I've done that for my male friends as well.

I'll admit of course that if any of these girls walked out of the bathroom naked and said: "you wanna", I would jump them in a heartbeat. Whether or not they have the same feelings about me(I've reason to believe that at least one of them had at some point) I cannot answer. Our relationship isn't based on rejection is all I'm saying.

I have tried the "let's be friends" repsonse before, but I've never been in this kind of "friend zone" since i just moved on after that.

My point(finally) is that we need to seperate these two kinds of "friend zones"

And no, Time doesn't seem to have a significant effect on "friend zones". It's just that the relationship has developed in manner where either part has lost interest in the other.

 

[Fledge]

I'm in the friend-zone atm, it's horrible.

 

[classygangster]

I havn't heard the expression 'Friend Zone' before, but I'm best friends with a girl and so I'd have to say that claiming to be friends with a girl is not ficticious. Not saying that this is your view - I get the impression I'm not fully understading the thread.

Other people I know go straight to dating, then end up awkward friends.

I'm not trying to be a creeper, but uhm who old are? Your response makes you seem really young...

I'm 19. I understand the situation, just havn't heard it called that before.

k sorry