Feminism: has it gone to far?

[Mimssy]

I was actually talking to a painfully ditsy little teen that said men should owe women for everything that happened in the past. She actually said "my ancestors" when referring to such oppressed women. It's funny because she's dumb enough to think women are their own race, my ancestors were just as oppressed as hers, she has never experienced any of these things. She thinks rosa parks stayed on the bus for woman's rights. Funny that this girl is the same one that also said mexicans are all drunks (because according to her, mexico has no drinking age limit) and every "illegal" mexican should be shot.
I think that kind of opened me up to these "feminazis' view of the world. Very narcissistic.

You mean, you know one retarded, self-obsessed, racist teenager and you're using her to judge centuries of campaigners for Women's Rights? Well done, good judgement there.

Ignore him. He also compared feminists to KKK members and I refuse to reply directly to a comment as ignorant as that.

I didn't compare all of feminism to kkk. Your taking one thing I said out of context because I disagree with your opinion, not exactly mature is it?

I compared them because there is a small part of the KKK that is nonviolent and claim to fight for racial equality. If you can say that a female supremacist is not a true feminist, than by your logic a KKK member who is violent is not truly KKK.
Never said feminism is as bad as KKK, maybe you should try to understand other peoples opinions before blindly insulting them.

Kind of like how you took my original comment out of context. A KKK member who believes in equality over supremacy has no place in a racist hate organization to promote one race at the expense of all others. You should never compare a movement that was started to promote equality to an organization that has lynched and terrorized people. That's like saying the NAACP was created to subjugate white people rather than trying to help a historically discriminated group of people. In the US, I would still make less than a man for the same job. That is not social equality. I have nothing further to say to you.

 

[Serenegoose]

In summary: Equal means equal. I think in the more modern countries, women are equals now, but the annoying thing is that they keep pushing for more rights. They've become equal. What more do they want?

Yeah, they get on average paid less than men for the same work.
They're more likely to be assaulted, infinitely more likely to be raped, and more likely to be killed.
They're encouraged to be sexually repressed, because if you're sexual you're a slut. They're encouraged to be quiet around others because being outspoken is bitchy.
Femininity itself is associated with being vapid (like duh), shallow (all girls think about is shoes!), meek (save me, manly mansome!) and submissive.

Think about it for a moment. When was the last time you seen a woman start one of these 'has feminism gone too far?!' threads? Yeah, because it is almost always guys saying WOMEN ARE TRYING TO BE SUPERIOR NOW.

Err... no. Sorry. Not the case.

Reading this made me very, VERY happy. I do however wish to extend on it.

My approach to feminism, and yes, I'm one of THOSE people, is that it is about equality. Not just for gendered reasons (there are more than two) but it links in to the struggle for race equality and the struggle for sexuality equality. I'll go with the most obvious gender divide for now.

The second wave of feminism in the sixties saw a lot of women come away from the housewife-defined lives that conservatism in the fifties forced them into. We started to enter the workforce, and we're still increasing the proportion of women who work. This is great. Fantastic. Three cheers. Unfortunately for us we still get landed with all the domestic work. Raising children, housework and such are still resoundingly female areas, save for some very progressive households. We thought with the second wave we'd be having more jobs. Instead, we wound up doing everything.

What it comes down to is not what it means to be female, but what it means to be male. "Man" needs to be redefined for this whole thing to work. The masculine needs to include taking up housework and childrearing, all those typically feminine, and unpaid might I add, jobs. I think we also need to stop devaluing the role that home parenting and housework have, whoever does them. There's a very fine balance between encouraging women to take the opportunity to get out of the home and work, have financial independence, and deriding those who in full knowledge choose to be mothers and housewives. This respect will be helped by better gender equality in the home.

Some people are going to shout that I'm trying to make women superior in the home. If that's the case, they need to acknowledge their prejudice which states that housework is an inferior position. Or maybe the idea of a home dad appears to them to be forced feminisation. What horseshit.

Yeah, being male is a whole list of things you can't do because that would make you a girl, and nobody wants that. I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt, burned the t-shirt, and defected. I'm still dealing with the baggage that, to me, I failed so utterly at being a guy, and that is shameful.

You can't be emotional. You can't be a pacifist. You can't like anything that girls like. (corollary: everything girls like is by definition stupid). Being a male is defined as 'whatever feminine isn't.' Since male is the default in society, this kinda gets overlaid on top of everything, and so the default societal perception is to devalue typically feminine roles, or to assign them subordinate roles. Sure, you can enter the work place!

We need nurses, secretaries, maids, stewardesses, tealadies...

I mean obviously I'm not saying that only women do those jobs and those jobs are the only ones women can get - but the stereotype is so pervasive even the names of those jobs are gendered!

Part of the solution then is to get guys to accept that being men isn't just to be whatever isn't feminine, because that's obviously going down like a lead hindenberg.

 

[Mimssy]

You're treading on the thin ice above the deep waters of sexism here...

Oh, I think many people have fallen through the ice and are gasping for air. I have to stop reading this thread; it's making me a little too angry that all feminists are being demonized and painted as female supremacists.

No they are not, your just hearing what you want to hear so you can feel offended about something. It's just plain disgusting.

If you think there are no female supremacists in the world, your delusional.

I know there are. They are female supremacists, not feminists. I'm not delusional. I have met female supremacists and their ideas are just as ridiculous as yours.

 

[Mimssy]

How precisely did they stop them from doing it?

Also, feminists in the 1960s aren't the same feminists that exist now.

See, the whole 'is it sexist or isn't it' in terms of playboy and other forms of porn (whether soft or hardcore) is the line between being unashamed of your sexuality, and being exploited because of your sexuality. Is doing a nude photoshoot just selling yourself out for male titilation, or is it a bold statement of a lack of shame over the body? At the time, softcore porn mags were a new thing, so it was ambiguous just which of the two it was. Now it's fairly obvious. You're not making any sort of bold statement if you're in playboy - accordingly, opinion has shifted. See?

On the flipside, depending on your public image, posing could be a big political step and means of greater exposure (not a pun). Not to mention Hef really forks out when he has to.

Women are still discriminated against by the army here. Army only conscripts men, which is very sexist, so no, I don't think it's gone far enough.

What's that? Feminisist are strangely quiet on this issue? Blimey.

Physical professions will always be dominated by men. Shout about inequality but physically men and women are not equal. This fact is not chauvinist, sexist or in anyway a means of keeping women down, it's the way we are built... from day one.

A lot of people don't want to see women as a killing machine either. The US Marine Corp is not a nice place for women...

or for men, but who gives a shit about them, right?

They have refused to prosecute their Marines for raping their fellow Marines. I have a great deal of respect for the all the people who serve (and I have known men/women who have served and died in many branches of the military), but refusing to dispense justice is wrong. In my experience, the Air Force has shown the most equality in regards to the military.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I do not think real feminism has gone far enough as females are still getting paid less than males. Now radical feminism or any isim got old the 2nd day it harassed someone to listen to them.....

 

[Mimssy]

How precisely did they stop them from doing it?

Also, feminists in the 1960s aren't the same feminists that exist now.

See, the whole 'is it sexist or isn't it' in terms of playboy and other forms of porn (whether soft or hardcore) is the line between being unashamed of your sexuality, and being exploited because of your sexuality. Is doing a nude photoshoot just selling yourself out for male titilation, or is it a bold statement of a lack of shame over the body? At the time, softcore porn mags were a new thing, so it was ambiguous just which of the two it was. Now it's fairly obvious. You're not making any sort of bold statement if you're in playboy - accordingly, opinion has shifted. See?

On the flipside, depending on your public image, posing could be a big political step and means of greater exposure (not a pun). Not to mention Hef really forks out when he has to.

Women are still discriminated against by the army here. Army only conscripts men, which is very sexist, so no, I don't think it's gone far enough.

What's that? Feminisist are strangely quiet on this issue? Blimey.

Physical professions will always be dominated by men. Shout about inequality but physically men and women are not equal. This fact is not chauvinist, sexist or in anyway a means of keeping women down, it's the way we are built... from day one.

A lot of people don't want to see women as a killing machine either. The US Marine Corp is not a nice place for women...

or for men, but who gives a shit about them, right?

They have refused to prosecute their Marines for raping their fellow Marines. I have a great deal of respect for the all the people who serve (and I have known men/women who have served and died in many branches of the military), but refusing to dispense justice is wrong. In my experience, the Air Force has shown the most equality in regards to the military.

It is wrong, but not all men are doing this.
As long as a man can be drafted, a woman should be too. If a woman wants to join any branch of the military, they should be allowed to, despite what people like you think of it. You don't decide where women "belong" just because you think you speak for all women.
That's equality. you seem to be pushing for something else.

BTW, men have been raped by women, sometimes even children. It's almost always ignored or waved away as something else, if the woman gets pregnant she can even sue the guy for child support. Isn't this an example "refusing to dispense justice"? Why do you only talk about the bad things "men" do but if a woman does something bad, it's not something "women" did?
Maybe I should use your logic, any man who rapes or refused to report rape, isn't really a man. So logically, no man has ever committed or refused to report a rape. Wow your logic sure is easy to use.

I support the draft for women and for women fighting on the front line. I was saying that the Marines have not been a good promoter of equality when it comes to their troops. Women can be just as good of a killing machine as a man. Women who rape should go to jail as well. Female pedophiles disgust me just as much as male pedophiles. Hell, I think a man can hit a woman just lie a woman can hit a man when threatened. I never said anything to the contrary so I have no idea where you are pulling this from.

 

[AgentNein]

Yep; there's a difference between promoting equality and being obnoxious and stupid.

Coincidentally, I think people who really want gender equality should go by a different name than "Feminists". This way we can decipher between the nujobs splattering gems such as "All men are pigs and should die!" all over the place and the people who can put together reasonable arguments on real issues.

For instance on the relationship between gender and pay inequality. If your argument towards this is to say that all men suck and should die; please go away. Now if you want to really have a discussion, then by all means voice your opinions and for God's sake, employers, pay everybody at the same rate.

I like that idea, the problem is certain people here think feminism is about equality, you know, even though the word feminist is a combination of "female" and "supremacist"

Actually I'd like to point out that this is complete bullshit.

 

[AgentNein]

Yep; there's a difference between promoting equality and being obnoxious and stupid.

Coincidentally, I think people who really want gender equality should go by a different name than "Feminists". This way we can decipher between the nujobs splattering gems such as "All men are pigs and should die!" all over the place and the people who can put together reasonable arguments on real issues.

For instance on the relationship between gender and pay inequality. If your argument towards this is to say that all men suck and should die; please go away. Now if you want to really have a discussion, then by all means voice your opinions and for God's sake, employers, pay everybody at the same rate.

I like that idea, the problem is certain people here think feminism is about equality, you know, even though the word feminist is a combination of "female" and "supremacist"

Actually I'd like to point out that this is complete bullshit.

How so? I'm not saying it's there on purpose, but it's there. Don't you find that odd?
Ok fine, you don't like that. How about this, why is it called "feminism" if it's fighting for equality? Why does "femin" have to be there at all? Because it's for the advancement of females, not males. That means if we have nobody fighting for male rights or better yet, actual equality, we get people still complaining about how a woman can be turned down for a job but nobody talking about how a woman who kills a man gets away with a few years in prison.


EDIT: Seriously, any asshole can say "Your wrong" without having a reason. If you disagree with me, why not say why?

I said it's bullshit because "Feminist" is definitely not a combination of the words "feminine" and "supremacist". The "ist" is the only link between these two words. Would you also say that "scientist" is a combination of "science" and "supremacist"?

But on to the other stuff: We have nobody fighting for "male rights" because males already have all of the rights. Same with why there's a problem with "white pride" groups. Males are a privileged class in the western world. White people are also a privileged class in the western world. White males are the most privileged class. They hold the most inherent privilege in our society. So groups fighting for "male equality" or "white equality" are understandably silly. There's no institutional suppression of the white male viewpoint. They are considered by society to be the default point of view.

 

[ICanBreakTheseCuffs]

Please stop using the word "Feminazi" it's childish as fuck. Feminists aren't out to kill you, they just want equality. Grow up.

feminists=equality, feminazis=women>men
see the difference?

 

[Serenegoose]

I said it's bullshit because "Feminist" is definitely not a combination of the words "feminine" and "supremacist". The "ist" is the only link between these two words. Would you also say that "scientist" is a combination of "science" and "supremacist"?

But on to the other stuff: We have nobody fighting for "male rights" because males already have all of the rights. Same with why there's a problem with "white pride" groups. Males are a privileged class in the western world. White people are also a privileged class in the western world. White males are the most privileged class. They hold the most inherent privilege in our society. So groups fighting for "male equality" or "white equality" are understandably silly. There's no institutional suppression of the white male viewpoint. They are considered by society to be the default point of view.

<3

I don't really have anything more substantial to add, beyond thanks for saying all of that stuff more succinctly than I could.

 

[Mimssy]

How precisely did they stop them from doing it?

Also, feminists in the 1960s aren't the same feminists that exist now.

See, the whole 'is it sexist or isn't it' in terms of playboy and other forms of porn (whether soft or hardcore) is the line between being unashamed of your sexuality, and being exploited because of your sexuality. Is doing a nude photoshoot just selling yourself out for male titilation, or is it a bold statement of a lack of shame over the body? At the time, softcore porn mags were a new thing, so it was ambiguous just which of the two it was. Now it's fairly obvious. You're not making any sort of bold statement if you're in playboy - accordingly, opinion has shifted. See?

On the flipside, depending on your public image, posing could be a big political step and means of greater exposure (not a pun). Not to mention Hef really forks out when he has to.

Women are still discriminated against by the army here. Army only conscripts men, which is very sexist, so no, I don't think it's gone far enough.

What's that? Feminisist are strangely quiet on this issue? Blimey.

Physical professions will always be dominated by men. Shout about inequality but physically men and women are not equal. This fact is not chauvinist, sexist or in anyway a means of keeping women down, it's the way we are built... from day one.

A lot of people don't want to see women as a killing machine either. The US Marine Corp is not a nice place for women...

or for men, but who gives a shit about them, right?

They have refused to prosecute their Marines for raping their fellow Marines. I have a great deal of respect for the all the people who serve (and I have known men/women who have served and died in many branches of the military), but refusing to dispense justice is wrong. In my experience, the Air Force has shown the most equality in regards to the military.

It is wrong, but not all men are doing this.
As long as a man can be drafted, a woman should be too. If a woman wants to join any branch of the military, they should be allowed to, despite what people like you think of it. You don't decide where women "belong" just because you think you speak for all women.
That's equality. you seem to be pushing for something else.

BTW, men have been raped by women, sometimes even children. It's almost always ignored or waved away as something else, if the woman gets pregnant she can even sue the guy for child support. Isn't this an example "refusing to dispense justice"? Why do you only talk about the bad things "men" do but if a woman does something bad, it's not something "women" did?
Maybe I should use your logic, any man who rapes or refused to report rape, isn't really a man. So logically, no man has ever committed or refused to report a rape. Wow your logic sure is easy to use.

I support the draft for women and for women fighting on the front line. I was saying that the Marines have not been a good promoter of equality when it comes to their troops. Women can be just as good of a killing machine as a man. Women who rape should go to jail as well. Female pedophiles disgust me just as much as male pedophiles. Hell, I think a man can hit a woman just lie a woman can hit a man when threatened. I never said anything to the contrary so I have no idea where you are pulling this from.

because all your talking about are the small things that women deal with. It's great that you think it's wrong, but why are you only talking about women getting paid less (again, what?) but the concept of women getting away with rape and murder isn't even mentioned as an equality issue. It's because feminism isn't about equality for both genders, it's about woman's rights. If a group forms that wants to fight for the rights of men, it would be called a sexist organization.

I'm talking about the issues of women to justify the continuation of the feminist movement.
As for women getting paid less:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html

 

[ICanBreakTheseCuffs]

well since they are dying their vaginas and making vagina hanbags I think they have gone too far
and also,they have goe so far that my friend rustin is acting like a feminists

Wut

The

Fuck?

feminizm is more like vaginaism right now cause they think it's a good idea to state their feminizm by focusing on the vagina
I think there was a thread about this earlier

 

[Scarecrow]

Oh wow guys...I posted this a day ago while I was half asleep, and wow..the number of people who have posted. Thanks for all your comments and making this a very interesting thread.

 

[Scarecrow]

I thinkl this thread is proof enough that sexism is far from dead.

I did not mean it like that...I just think that thing's are getting a little out of hand. That is all.

 

[Mimssy]

And why are issues that affect females the only ones that justify the continuation of a group that you claim is about equality?
Is it only sexism if it happens to a woman?
I'm not judging here, just asking. Why do you see women getting paid a little less (something I disagree with, as long as they have the same rules and job as everyone else) more important to feminism than a guy getting murdered and the killer getting off easy because she's a woman. Don't you see the issue with this?

Did you not read the article I linked? Women do get paid less.
Yes, justice should be equal to both men and women. Aileen Wuornos was just as evil as Ted Bundy. The women in the Manson Family were just as fucked up as he was. I feel like you just went off on a different topic entirely. Female issues discussed in an organization dedicated to female issues isn't sexist just like minority race issues discussed at a meeting of the NAACP is not racist. When discussing violence against women, the acts in question are usually gender/power motivated. A woman who wields power over a man and abuses (mentally or physically) him is just as evil as the man who raped, abused, and terrorized me**. Violence is always wrong. Sexual assault is always wrong, no matter who commits it. Wanting to reduce hate crimes (acts committed solely based on a difference of the victim from the aggressor) isn't discriminatory. They can be done by anyone to anyone.

**This is true and has in no way made me hostile to men. Most of my friends are male and so are my 2 roommates. I have never and will never hate men based on the actions of one idiot. You should also not judge all feminists by the acts of random crazy women who think living like Amazons is a good idea.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

snip"

snip.

snip?

I said it's bullshit because "Feminist" is definitely not a combination of the words "feminine" and "supremacist". The "ist" is the only link between these two words. Would you also say that "scientist" is a combination of "science" and "supremacist"?
.

I'm sorry for how immature this is, but I just have to:

Spoiler

Back on topic, this should be in the religion and politics discussion, it was a flame baity topic, and it was delivered without any background references, or in fact any facts at all behind 'my personal opinion is that feminism has gone too far' on the part of the original poster. It borders on trolling.

As to the actual subject being discussed, there have been three separate waves of feminism (give or take, but there are an accepted three), anyone who doesn't know that historical fact should leave this thread immediately because they automatically don't know what they are talking about, feminism is not a combination of the words 'feminine' and 'supremicist' anyone who doeasn't know this basic linguistic fact should leave right now (preferably leave the internet, and maybe the English language entirely, but that's a judgement call), and there is a difference betwen a feminist and a female supremacist, anyone who doesn't understand these political divisions should also leave.

Feminism has not yet achieved its stated goals thus it cannot have gone too far. It could be argued that straw feminists and radical female supremacists calling themselves feminists have strayed from the original message of feminism, but a true feminist has nothing in common with these groups.

Woman are still paid less, more likely to be assaulted, expected to hold down societally determined female-specific jobs (nursing, secretarial positions) etc etc, all points previously covered.

BUT

Men are just as pigeonholed by society, if there is ever to be an advancement to the point where the sexes could be considered equal (remember that feminism is the advancement of women to the point of equality with men, originally derived from disagreements over the right to vote and pay disputes in the wake of women coming to work in the factories after the men left to fight in WWI and WWII) then men's roles must also be redefined.

A linguistic argument could be made that the word itself is biased, but the word comes from a different time, the best term nowadays would be to claim 'equalism', or to be an 'equalist'. This acknowledges that women are still in some ways at a disadvantage to men, but also remind sthat there are certain areas where men are automatically considered deficient as well. For an example of this check the rates of men granted custody over their children vs women where there are no other defining factors beyond, 'it's the mother who gets the baby.' Other examples might include cases where the existence of male rape is denied because 'men can't get raped, they have to be aroused to get an erection' (and if you truly believe that you clearly failed biology as a high schooler)

I wouldn't argue for this either way, because I don't think original feminism as such exists anymore, there are female supremacists (who are always women) and there are equalists (male and female), which is what true feminists turned into sometime in the last twenty years.

Of course, our society is far too broken in other ways for this issue to ever be resolved without some sort of cataclysmic event, but I live in hope.

 

[Sinclair Solutions]

I am fine with feminists, to be honest. Let's face it, it's much harder to be a woman in today's society, as you can see from one of the posts. I am fine with woman trying to get equal pay, or cut down on rapes, or anything else.

However, what I do not enjoy is what people in this thread are calling "supremacists", or women who go off the handle for any thing that even resembles chauvinism to them. The common example is holding open a door. Now, wouldn't anybody here hold a door open for a person, regardless of their gender? Of course. But the obnoxious women who take offense to this bug me. I understand them, but I wish they wouldn't take such offense. People being considerate and polite is not the same as them being oppressive. There is a very, VERY big difference.

Yet, once you think about it, this is the same for any type of group. Christians, Jewish Rights, Black Rights, and so on. Most of the people who are passionate about their cause are civil individuals who I respect. But some are so passionate that they think the world is working against them and any display of courtesy is presented as pandering to them or disrespect. Sad.

harder to be a woman? are you forgetting the RACIAL discrimination? women get the light treatment compared to the shit that happens due to race. you don't see feminists get beaten by riot cops, you don't see feminists have police attack dogs attack them, nor are they sprayed with fire hoses and treated like animals. Racism is just as alive today as it was when first met someone else who is remotely different when we were still using spears. you never see the gender inequality erupt into the level of violence racism has the tendency to do. Look at what happened in LA when a cop shot a mexican, they rioted. Look at what happened when LA cops beat up a black man, they rioted. you don't see that level of violence in the gender gap.

want a video of the level of violence racism tends to have? here.

I said it's bullshit because "Feminist" is definitely not a combination of the words "feminine" and "supremacist". The "ist" is the only link between these two words. Would you also say that "scientist" is a combination of "science" and "supremacist"?

But on to the other stuff: We have nobody fighting for "male rights" because males already have all of the rights. Same with why there's a problem with "white pride" groups. Males are a privileged class in the western world. White people are also a privileged class in the western world. White males are the most privileged class. They hold the most inherent privilege in our society. So groups fighting for "male equality" or "white equality" are understandably silly. There's no institutional suppression of the white male viewpoint. They are considered by society to be the default point of view.

<3

I don't really have anything more substantial to add, beyond thanks for saying all of that stuff more succinctly than I could.

oh yes because we all know men live in mansions with piles of gold coins and women live in straw huts. men don't have rights, RICH people have rights. rights are not about who you are, but how big your checkbook is. unless you're part of the 10% that are high class, you have very little rights.

Did I say it was hardest? Is it a competition? I'm just saying it's harder than a lot of men think. I could say "white males" if that would make you feel better.

 

[Enigmers]

Saying "feminism has gone too far" because of a few whackhead nutjobs is like saying "Religion has gone too far" because of a few suicide bombers.

 

[Serenegoose]

harder to be a woman? are you forgetting the RACIAL discrimination? women get the light treatment compared to the shit that happens due to race. you don't see feminists get beaten by riot cops, you don't see feminists have police attack dogs attack them, nor are they sprayed with fire hoses and treated like animals. Racism is just as alive today as it was when first met someone else who is remotely different when we were still using spears. you never see the gender inequality erupt into the level of violence racism has the tendency to do. Look at what happened in LA when a cop shot a mexican, they rioted. Look at what happened when LA cops beat up a black man, they rioted. you don't see that level of violence in the gender gap.

You're aware that there are non-white women, right? Privilege isn't a binary thing. You have some, you lack others. Male privilege, cis privilege, white privilege, class privilege.

oh yes because we all know men live in mansions with piles of gold coins and women live in straw huts. men don't have rights, RICH people have rights. rights are not about who you are, but how big your checkbook is. unless you're part of the 10% that are high class, you have very little rights.

Guess which gender most rich people are. That's right! Because it's easier to get rich if you're a guy.

 

[Something Amyss]

I love it when a bunch of middle class or better white males decide that everything's equal.

I don't have much else to say here. This thread is horrendously disheartening.