Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras
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I still stand by my last post on a this topic: It is so mindnumbingly stupid that I swear I'm getting brain cancer from it. The Escapist aside, it only really seems Tumblr is taking the joke seriously or think it's still funny. At least from my anecdotal experience.
*sigh* that is a totally ridiculous comparison. Not only does it go to show the very flaw with feminism that I alluded to earlier, it speaks to the fact that equality is in no way your aim. It's completely selfish to try to effect society that we all live in and pretend to be so naive as to think only those you focus on will be affect by the change.Vault101 said:
"because I am a woman, I should only worry about women's issues" And you think those in the so called Patriarchy are specifically targeting other genders simply because they are that malicious? No, it's because they care about their own well-being and issues to the point that they impugn the rights and well-being of others. Maybe there were those types a few hundred years ago when people were that backwards they honestly thought that women were a lower species of human then men. But now? now it's selfishness that is causing people to trample the rights of others. That's not to say there's not backwards types like those from a hundred years ago, but those are a strict minority in all but religious hegemonies.
Nonetheless, you're still failing to see the flaw with feminism, or if you are you are actively trying to justify it, which honestly, makes you no better then the old white guys trying to protect their own power bases. You don't care who else is affected, as long as you get what you want.
"Often used to excuse sexual violence" ..... what if the comparison was towards women slut shaming other women about clothing? No sexual violence there, same ideal of shaming over a clothing item, simple envy or self righteousness.Skull Bearer said:
I do feel that is a subject that feminist seem strangely quiet about. As if they have never once denounced another woman for the way she carries herself. I bet the slut walk would have been a lot quieter if they had enforced a ban on people who had ever used the word "slut" with negative connotations.
Feminism wants equality between men and women,the reason it is called feminism is because it focuses on issues involving women [b/]weather or not people care ONLY about the issues which affect equality between the genders as opoased to other issues is enitrly up to them and not an issue with the WORD[/b]Deadcyde said:
[quote/]"because I am a woman, I should only worry about women's issues"[/quote]
I never said people should or shouldn't care about anything, I only said people will generally form their veiwpoints based on their own personal experence,
[quote/]And you think those in the so called Patriarchy are specifically targeting other genders simply because they are that malicious? No, it's because they care about their own well-being and issues to the point that they impugn the rights and well-being of others.[/quote]
of coarse I fucking don't....there are plently of sexist asshats out there but if you look at the thing [i/]as a whole[/i] there is no concious malicious intent..it just is due to a number of reasons
[quote/]Maybe there were those types a few hundred years ago when people were that backwards they honestly thought that women were a lower species of human then men.[/quote]
tell me if were you alive all those years ago would you have been in favor of giving the women the vote? would I have been a suffergette or would I have been another women shaking her head at those "feminists" causing trouble because deep down I would have been too frightented to rock the boat? because if I'm honest I'm not sure I would have had the courage to rock the boat...or go back further...if I grew up in the south and my father was a plantation owner who kept slaves would I have been helping them down the underground railroad or simply justified it one way or another to myself?
its very reasonable and PC nowdays to belive those things...but back then? people are products of their time...
[quote/]But now? now it's selfishness that is causing people to trample the rights of others. That's not to say there's not backwards types like those from a hundred years ago, but those are a strict minority in all but religious hegemonies.[/quote]
huh.....oh no...sexism is alive and well also:
its selfish to want eaqual pay?
its selfish to NOT wish to be defined by ones relationship to a man or their womb?
its selfish to want to be represented better in popular media?
its selfish to not want to be asked "what were you wearing?" if ever I were raped?
its selfish to not want idiots being creepy and making lewd comments about ones apearance eahter at work or in public?
its selfish to agency over ones own body?
its selfish to want to have as much or as little sex as I desire?
its selfish to explore my own sexuality as I see fit?
its selfish to want to be respected professionally in job that might otherwise be male dominated?
its selfish to want to dress how I please?
its selfish to not be exptected to conform to an artifical standard of beuty?
its selffish to want to be seen as a person first and foremost?
[quote/]Nonetheless, you're still failing to see the flaw with feminism, or if you are you are actively trying to justify it, which honestly, makes you no better then the old white guys trying to protect their own power bases. You don't care who else is affected, as long as you get what you want.[/quote]
who would feminists be affecting?..would it be guys....per chance?...you know that thing I said earlyer? about peoples veiws generally being influenced by what resonates with them personally?...hmm?
[quote/]"Often used to excuse sexual violence" ..... what if the comparison was towards women slut shaming other women about clothing? No sexual violence there, same ideal of shaming over a clothing item, simple envy or self righteousness.
I do feel that is a subject that feminist seem strangely quiet about. As if they have never once denounced another woman for the way she carries herself. I bet the slut walk would have been a lot quieter if they had enforced a ban on people who had ever used the word "slut" with negative connotations.[/quote]
actually there is a thing for that...its called "internalised mysogany". Woman sees men talking badly of "sluts" rahter than actually think about why and what it means to be a "slut" they shame other women, it doesnt occur to her that shaming women for being "slutty" is a dangerous road to victim shaming..and having as little or as much sex as she pleases isn't nessicaryly a bad thing
You know what, I agree 100% with the original post and a lot of other lovely, sensible people here.
I always go by the rule of "If you are comfortable in it and like it, then wear it". This is regardless of the opinions of others.
Though I do think that people need to stand down when it comes down to their opinion being "the right one". Granted that is just my opinion, take from that what you will.
I always go by the rule of "If you are comfortable in it and like it, then wear it". This is regardless of the opinions of others.
Though I do think that people need to stand down when it comes down to their opinion being "the right one". Granted that is just my opinion, take from that what you will.
Can't have equality without taking into account everyone's issues, if you focus on one parties issues, then you're not really after equality but superiority. I don't know how to explain it in less complicated terms.Vault101 said:
[quote/]I never said people should or shouldn't care about anything, I only said people will generally form their veiwpoints based on their own personal experence, [/quote]
and I said if they fail to take in all sides of the issue then they are no better then those who care about themselves.
[quote/]of coarse I fucking don't....there are plently of sexist asshats out there but if you look at the thing [i/]as a whole[/i] there is no concious malicious intent..it just is due to a number of reasons [/quote]
one of them being a failure to take into account someone elses issues.
[quote/]tell me if were you alive all those years ago would you have been in favor of giving the women the vote? would I have been a suffergette or would I have been another women shaking her head at those "feminists" causing trouble because deep down I would have been too frightented to rock the boat? because if I'm honest I'm not sure I would have had the courage to rock the boat...or go back further...if I grew up in the south and my father was a plantation owner who kept slaves would I have been helping them down the underground railroad or simply justified it one way or another to myself?
[/quote]
I believe people are people, and they should all have a voice. If they misuse that voice, then there is a reason for it that must be explored and understood if the issue is to be resolved. Also, it wasn't just "too frightened to rock the boat" that stopped some women for standing up for their rights. It was because it didn't serve their interests. Which is what I'm saying here, if you don't take into account other peoples issues then ultimately you're only in it for your own self interest. This is not a good thing, no matter how much Ayn Rand thinks so.
[quote/]its very reasonable and PC nowdays to belive those things...but back then? people are products of their time...[/quote]
Absolve them of personal responsibility if that makes you feel better. I won't.
[quote/] huh.....oh no...sexism is alive and well also:
its selfish to want eaqual pay?
its selfish to NOT wish to be defined by ones relationship to a man or their womb?
its selfish to want to be represented better in popular media?
its selfish to not want to be asked "what were you wearing?" if ever I were raped?
its selfish to not want idiots being creepy and making lewd comments about ones apearance eahter at work or in public?
its selfish to agency over ones own body?
its selfish to want to have as much or as little sex as I desire?
its selfish to explore my own sexuality as I see fit?
its selfish to want to be respected professionally in job that might otherwise be male dominated?
its selfish to want to dress how I please?
its selfish to not be exptected to conform to an artifical standard of beuty?
its selffish to want to be seen as a person first and foremost?
[/quote]
It is, but I was speaking about ingrained belief that women were some how less sentient then men. Nowadays that belief is far less prevalent.
Otherwise if you want a rebuttal to your points..
No, it's not, but to think these issues solely affect your gender you are mistaken. I'd even go so far as to say that most of those issues you outlined, focusing on only the womens side of that issue will only exacerbate the issue if not create new ones. Though I concede that isn't true with all of them.
[quote/]who would feminists be affecting?..would it be guys....per chance?...you know that thing I said earlyer? about peoples veiws generally being influenced by what resonates with them personally?...hmm?
[/quote]Everyone. So it's only fair they be aware of that when they bring up issues.
[quote/]actually there is a thing for that...its called "internalised mysogany". Woman sees men talking badly of "sluts" rahter than actually think about why and what it means to be a "slut" they shame other women, it doesnt occur to her that shaming women for being "slutty" is a dangerous road to victim shaming..and having as little or as much sex as she pleases isn't nessicaryly a bad thing[/quote]
Wow, nice way to abdicate responsibility. Women clearly have no agency and only did bad things to other women because men made them do it.
It's about what men want, I mean there's never been a woman who's called another woman a slut because she felt threatened, or envious. There's never been a woman attack another woman over sheer territorial behaviour. Cause clearly women have no ability to think or choose for themselves. /s
It's like watching a man with a gun find the nearest bank.Eamar said:Also can I just say that holy crap, I figured the title might be good clickbait but I can't believe the views this thread is getting or that it's made it to 8 pages... Maybe next time I should really push the boat out and throw Anita Sarkeesian in there too
First of all, the whole fedora look that people make fun of is seriously dumb. Wearing a fedora with jeans and a band t-shirt looks bad. It just does, that's the truth. Add a trenchcoat to that and it becomes cringe-worthy. All stereotypes have a bit of truth in them, they don't just appear out of nowhere, this is no different. As the personality associated with said stereotype is, frankly, insufferable, why not make fun of it? I don't get it why people get offended so easily. Wow, someone made fun of you, big whoop. You expect me to believe you've never made fun of someone? That's life, and that's what us, humans, do, it helps us feel better about ourselves. If you can't take it, don't put yourself in that situation, it's that simple.
Secondly, the whole feminism thing is stupid as well. Stop trying to fight for Women Rights, or Male Rights, or whatever you want to call them. If you want true equality, focus on that, not on the rights of one group, but the rights of all. Stop talking about feminism, talk about equality, then you might actually get somewhere. Come on, the whole feminist movement is more about superiority, than true equality.
Secondly, the whole feminism thing is stupid as well. Stop trying to fight for Women Rights, or Male Rights, or whatever you want to call them. If you want true equality, focus on that, not on the rights of one group, but the rights of all. Stop talking about feminism, talk about equality, then you might actually get somewhere. Come on, the whole feminist movement is more about superiority, than true equality.
I want to take this argument back a step
[quote/]But now? now it's selfishness that is causing people to trample the rights of others. That's not to say there's not backwards types like those from a hundred years ago, but those are a strict minority in all but religious hegemonies.[/quote]
now I'm going to assume you're not a woman, this goes back to what I said earlier about people not understanding what it is to be part of an "other" group. there is obviously a lot you don't know about what it means to be a woman. just like there is a lot I don't know about what it is to be a Trans person..I didn't know up until recently some trans people prefer to remain androgynous or that not all of them necessarily feel the need to get the operation.
so you saying "equality for everyone" and then saying "sexism don't real" you know what that sounds like?
[quote/]I always feel when people say "I rather egalitarianism to feminism" I see it as saying "could we all just be equal so you people will stop talking about your issues?"[/quote]
it sounds like what I said in my very first point.
[quote/]I believe people are people, and they should all have a voice. If they misuse that voice, then there is a reason for it that must be explored and understood if the issue is to be resolved. Also, it wasn't just "too frightened to rock the boat" that stopped some women for standing up for their rights. It was because it didn't serve their interests. Which is what I'm saying here, if you don't take into account other peoples issues then ultimately you're only in it for your own self interest. This is not a good thing, no matter how much Ayn Rand thinks so. Absolve them of personal responsibility if that makes you feel better. I won't. [/quote]
my point was its easy to look into the past and see how backwards people were, and imagine if WE were raised in that era WE would not sucumb the predjudices of the time. But that is a naive view...because to go against the grain takes a certain courage and insanity most people don't really have, they could look into todays past and see how backwards "we" are, it does not absolve anyone of any blame. Any it was beside the point.
[quote/]It is, but I was speaking about ingrained belief that women were some how less sentient then men. Nowadays that belief is far less prevalent.[/quote]
as I said sexism goes beyond that.
[quote/]No, it's not, but to think these issues solely affect your gender you are mistaken. I'd even go so far as to say that most of those issues you outlined, focusing on only the womens side of that issue will only exacerbate the issue if not create new ones. Though I concede that isn't true with all of them. [/quote]
we could get into a "who has it worse" competition but that would go nowhere. If I acknowledge something affects women adversely that does not mean I think men have no issue whats so ever. There IS however a line that needs to be drawn...and as much as this is going to be the internet equivalent of bashing my head against a wall....I am not going to play the [i/]everyone is equally oppressed[/i] game because I don't believe it
if you want to talk about what challenges men face in society by all means, please do...but don't start pouring your milk into my iced tea and telling me they are the same thing
[quote/]Wow, nice way to abdicate responsibility. Women clearly have no agency and only did bad things to other women because men made them do it.
It's about what men want, I mean there's never been a woman who's called another woman a slut because she felt threatened, or envious. There's never been a woman attack another woman over sheer territorial behaviour. Cause clearly women have no ability to think or choose for themselves. /s [/quote]
I never meant women can't be shitty....I'm just saying its one of the reasons, and the fact that women do it does not invalidate the Idea that slut shaming is a bad thing....which was the impression I got
for someone who champions "taking EVERYONES issues into account" ala "equality for everyone" you seem very quick to dismiss the fact that sexism is something that affects women today, example:Deadcyde said:
[quote/]But now? now it's selfishness that is causing people to trample the rights of others. That's not to say there's not backwards types like those from a hundred years ago, but those are a strict minority in all but religious hegemonies.[/quote]
now I'm going to assume you're not a woman, this goes back to what I said earlier about people not understanding what it is to be part of an "other" group. there is obviously a lot you don't know about what it means to be a woman. just like there is a lot I don't know about what it is to be a Trans person..I didn't know up until recently some trans people prefer to remain androgynous or that not all of them necessarily feel the need to get the operation.
so you saying "equality for everyone" and then saying "sexism don't real" you know what that sounds like?
[quote/]I always feel when people say "I rather egalitarianism to feminism" I see it as saying "could we all just be equal so you people will stop talking about your issues?"[/quote]
it sounds like what I said in my very first point.
[quote/]I believe people are people, and they should all have a voice. If they misuse that voice, then there is a reason for it that must be explored and understood if the issue is to be resolved. Also, it wasn't just "too frightened to rock the boat" that stopped some women for standing up for their rights. It was because it didn't serve their interests. Which is what I'm saying here, if you don't take into account other peoples issues then ultimately you're only in it for your own self interest. This is not a good thing, no matter how much Ayn Rand thinks so. Absolve them of personal responsibility if that makes you feel better. I won't. [/quote]
my point was its easy to look into the past and see how backwards people were, and imagine if WE were raised in that era WE would not sucumb the predjudices of the time. But that is a naive view...because to go against the grain takes a certain courage and insanity most people don't really have, they could look into todays past and see how backwards "we" are, it does not absolve anyone of any blame. Any it was beside the point.
[quote/]It is, but I was speaking about ingrained belief that women were some how less sentient then men. Nowadays that belief is far less prevalent.[/quote]
as I said sexism goes beyond that.
[quote/]No, it's not, but to think these issues solely affect your gender you are mistaken. I'd even go so far as to say that most of those issues you outlined, focusing on only the womens side of that issue will only exacerbate the issue if not create new ones. Though I concede that isn't true with all of them. [/quote]
we could get into a "who has it worse" competition but that would go nowhere. If I acknowledge something affects women adversely that does not mean I think men have no issue whats so ever. There IS however a line that needs to be drawn...and as much as this is going to be the internet equivalent of bashing my head against a wall....I am not going to play the [i/]everyone is equally oppressed[/i] game because I don't believe it
if you want to talk about what challenges men face in society by all means, please do...but don't start pouring your milk into my iced tea and telling me they are the same thing
[quote/]Wow, nice way to abdicate responsibility. Women clearly have no agency and only did bad things to other women because men made them do it.
It's about what men want, I mean there's never been a woman who's called another woman a slut because she felt threatened, or envious. There's never been a woman attack another woman over sheer territorial behaviour. Cause clearly women have no ability to think or choose for themselves. /s [/quote]
I never meant women can't be shitty....I'm just saying its one of the reasons, and the fact that women do it does not invalidate the Idea that slut shaming is a bad thing....which was the impression I got
......not all groups can see each others issues the same wayMitzeh said:
Don't twist my words, Saying that everyone's issues are equally important is not the same as saying there is no sexism. Neither is saying that only a minority actually believe women are less then men and to the extent where it was considered "scientific fact" as it was at the start of last century (or in places of extreme religion.)Vault101 said:
Secondly, I know that you cannot speak for something you are not, I've said that many a time, but you're not even willing to concede that there are more issues then just women's issues and by focusing solely on women's issues we allow other issues to evolve into even worse problems, not to mention it flies in the face of equality as without taking other peoples issues into account you're not trying to make yourself equal to them at all.
Lastly, all you've done is make excuses as to why you should focus solely on your problems and that other peoples problems aren't your concern because frankly.. you aren't them. This is wrong, you don't have to speak for someone or make decisions for them simply be aware of the effect your actions have on them.
Here's one for you. Women have joined the workforce in great numbers, beginning to take jobs that before were predominantly men. They have people fighting for them to have that basic human right to be able to choose their own career. This is a good thing, but here's my question. What about the other way around? What about men taking jobs that are generally considered female dominated? Child care? Stay at home dads? hair dressers? Nursing? Clothing retail? Where are the people fighting for them to be able to do that? Not only that they have to face vilification, where they are considered gay or less manly or even perverts. What do feminists proposed to do about that? By focusing on womens concerns, they've effectively doubled the competition for men in the work place, but not for themselves; is that equality?
did it never occur to you that there are other people aside from "feminists" who address their other issues? that you can be a feminist AND an x and that being one does not cancel out the other?Deadcyde said:
this is what I said about people lobbying for their own issues, of coarse people should be aware of how others face but don't go attacking one group for not being "the ministry of rights for everyone"..look at the gay rights issue...now a lot of straight people either apathetic or not are in favor of gay marriage (because really there is no solid opposing veiw) that didn't happen because LGBT sat back and "considered how to tackle all the issues that ail humanity" instead they lobbied for their rights and of coarse may have been helped by allies and now its gonna happen at some point
anyway I was talking about "feminism" as a concept and what it meant (as in definition),if I haven't made it clear enough go look up some definitions or read up on it... I was not talking about what people actually [i/]do[/i] in regards to it, what people do or don't do is their own concern...you'll find most people don't actually [i/]do[/i] anything in regards to anything relating to views they may or may not have...except argue on the internet
[quote/]Here's one for you. Women have joined the workforce in great numbers, beginning to take jobs that before were predominantly men. They have people fighting for them to have that basic human right to be able to choose their own career. This is a good thing, but here's my question. What about the other way around? What about men taking jobs that are generally considered female dominated? Child care? Stay at home dads? hair dressers? Nursing? Clothing retail? Where are the people fighting for them to be able to do that? Not only that they have to face vilification, where they are considered gay or less manly or even perverts. What do feminists proposed to do about that?[/quote]
well that comes under the "gender roles" thing which is a thing as far as feminism is concerned, gender roles suck basically
[quote/] By focusing on women's concerns, they've effectively doubled the competition for men in the work place, but not for themselves; is that equality?[/quote]
if equality means being equal...and BOTH genders have equal access to work...then thats equality..I mean the fuck were they gonna do? NOT work? also women have actually been working since the dawn of time, only their options were rather limited, very few people in this world can "not" work
I am not an expert on the job market or the economy...I'm not sure what effect women entering the workplace has had over the past century but I do know its gone hand in hand with the technological changes that have (and will continue to) change out workforce....gender isn't really going to matter in the long run...anyway I'm sure there is tons of information out there that is probably worth reading, ultimately I don't know...good or bad its not something that can be helped
Looks like a mediocre Blues Brother! XDArcher666 said:I always thought fedoras were more of a neckbeard/PUA thing than a tumblr feminist thing.
But yeah, the reason people make fun of fedorabeards is because 99% of them look like this:
It does when you focus on womens issues to the exclusions of others and begin to impugn their rights.Vault101 said:
[quote/]this is what I said about people lobbying for their own issues, of coarse people should be aware of how others face but don't go attacking one group for not being "the ministry of rights for everyone"..look at the gay rights issue...now a lot of straight people either apathetic or not are in favor of gay marriage (because really there is no solid opposing veiw) that didn't happen because LGBT sat back and "considered how to tackle all the issues that ail humanity" instead they lobbied for their rights and of coarse may have been helped by allies and now its gonna happen at some point
anyway I was talking about "feminism" as a concept and what it meant (as in definition),if I haven't made it clear enough go look up some definitions or read up on it... I was not talking about what people actually [i/]do[/i] in regards to it, what people do or don't do is their own concern...you'll find most people don't actually [i/]do[/i] anything in regards to anything relating to views they may or may not have...except argue on the internet
[/quote]
Attacking? No, merely pointing out that you're not better then the ones you profess to hate if you refuse to take into account the issues of everyone. The reality reflects the observation.
[quote/]well that comes under the "gender roles" thing which is a thing as far as feminism is concerned, gender roles suck basically [/quote]
But feminism is happy to have them changed for women to the exclusion of anyone else. Even if those changes impugn others. Because as you say, feminism is about women's issues, no one else's.
[quote/] if equality means being equal...and BOTH genders have equal access to work...then thats equality..I mean the fuck were they gonna do? NOT work? also women have actually been working since the dawn of time, only their options were rather limited, very few people in this world can "not" work
I am not an expert on the job market or the economy...I'm not sure what effect women entering the workplace has had over the past century but I do know its gone hand in hand with the technological changes that have (and will continue to) change out workforce....gender isn't really going to matter in the long run...anyway I'm sure there is tons of information out there that is probably worth reading, ultimately I don't know...good or bad its not something that can be helped[/quote]
Unless it's about women right?
I'm done here. Clearly I've not explained in plain enough terms that feminism is simply women who want a slice of the cake, fuck everyone else. And no matter how you paint it, it isn't equality. Not by a long shot.
You keep repeating yourself over and over again "consider everyone's issue" the world does not work that way, sometimes to get shit done you need [b/]focus[/b]Deadcyde said:
Black people did not earn their rights by considering how to fix every problem in the world
Gay people did not earn their rights by considering how to fix every problem in the world
charities do not try to fix every problem in the world they choose their focus,
Doctors do not try and specialise in every area of medicine
one person does not get every single degree there is, they pick a feild and specialise
You never said what it actually means, because I don't think it actually means anything,
[quote/]It does when you focus on womens issues to the exclusions of others and begin to impugn their rights.[\quote]
And what rights are we impugning here? The right to rape? The right to sexually harass? The right to catcall? the right to discriminate based on gender?
[quote/] Attacking? No, merely pointing out that you're not better then the ones you profess to hate if you refuse to take into account the issues of everyone. The reality reflects the observation.[/quote]
1.false equivalency 2. I never said I didn't take into account the rights of everyone...but again you haven't elaborated on what that means
[quote/]But feminism is happy to have them changed for women to the exclusion of anyone else. Even if those changes impugn others. Because as you say, feminism is about women's issues, no one else's.[/quote]
Current gender roles is what makes the stigma against men doing what has been considered women's work, as per your example, getting rid of these ideas benefits men too AS PER YOUR EXAMPLE if you weren't busy trying to pick out reasons "sexism don't real" you might have seen that
[quote/]Unless it's about women right?[/quote]
Everybody has to work...and there are a multitude of issues there that aren't exclusive to women, but that's another argument
[quote\]feminism is simply women who want a slice of the cake[\quote]
were all entitled to an eaqual slice of the cake but we don't get it unless we ask for it
Where have you been? This place is packed with judgemental types who can know all kinds of things about you based on just one detail.BathorysGraveland2 said:
I would be amazed if this crap became more important to you as you aged. Astounded!SUPA FRANKY said:
This is the age of social media. The shame is on everyone. Hooray for progress!!V8 Ninja said:
I really don't see how you guys can get so upset about one part of making fun of uppity, elitist Internet users.
Are fanny packs not sacred anymore? Sandals with socks? Satchel bags? Cargo shorts?
It's funny in combination, bros, it's human nature to laugh at something like that.
Are fanny packs not sacred anymore? Sandals with socks? Satchel bags? Cargo shorts?
It's funny in combination, bros, it's human nature to laugh at something like that.