Feminists, we need to talk about fedoras

[Eamar]

Isn't it great how once a problem affects men it has to be dealt with immediately?

[mega snip]

"the feminists are being mean!"

Did you even read the OP? I'm a woman. And a feminist. One who has noticed an increase in the feminists I know employing these tactics, and who thinks it's hypocritical, unfair and undermines certain other feminist arguments. It has nothing to do with the fact that the victims are men and everything to do with my desire for feminism to basically keep it classy. It is certainly not meant to imply that similar problems facing women are any less important (in fact, rather the opposite).

 

[Riot3000]

Really, the very idea of wearing a KKK robe and hood as casual attire wasn't a weird enough notion for you to guess I was being facetious? I mean the KKK thing is literally a uniform.

Well maybe that is form of hyperbole it gotten to the point I can't tell. To be honest I can't remember people making a tizzy about miniskirts unless it came from so uber conservative blog or random comment and that has been forever. I mean people have their gripes about clothing from ed hardy shirts to skinny jeans but the fedora seem to be the actual equivalent to kkk hoods to some folks.

I mean little gripes about certain fashion or grooming fine but when its cranked to 11 time to take a step back and breathe.

 

[Eamar]

Just to point out, radical feminism does not equate with feminists with extreme beliefs.
Radical feminism is a proper school of thought within feminism.

I'm well aware of what radical feminism is. The women I was speaking about identify as radical feminists in the way you described.

I'm also not sure why you're allowing some third-hand accounts of people with particularly extreme and exceptionally uncommon beliefs to threaten your own views

My comment about it being hard to be proud of being a feminist sometimes was typed with my tongue firmly in my cheek.

or why you feel you need to be almost apologetic for them.

Because, as in many groups, the extremists are the ones who shout the loudest and who colour a lot of less-informed people's views on the movement as a whole. I feel it's important to present a more approachable side of feminism without resorting to the cheap (and untrue) cop-out "oh, they're not real feminists."

 

[Eamar]

I'm a feminist and I wear this:

Spoiler

Because screw you, I have worn hats like fedoras before this whole stereotype was a thing.

Does the snake come with the hat? Please tell me the snake comes with the hat XD

Either way, awesome snake hat!

 

[TakerFoxx]

Sometimes symbols get corrupted from their original meanings to mean something worse. The swastika used to be a Buddhist symbol. Hell, fedoras used to be a feminist symbol. I think it's time we accepted that fedora's have moved from being a poor fashion choice for awkward young men into being a symbol of a truly toxic subculture. (Sorry to hate on non-MRA fedora wearers, but from a fashion standpoint hats for men generally only work when paired with a matching outfit)

People make assumptions based on how you choose to present yourself. So if you choose to wear a hat that is associated with a certain thing, you should be prepared to deal with it instead of whining about how "the feminists are being mean!"

I've worn a fedora for the past seven years. Why? Because I like them. I have the face for them, and usually make sure that the rest of my outfit at least matches it. And it's since become kind of my trademark, to the point where everyone I know gets surprised when they see me without one. It's just how I roll, never been a problem.

And then suddenly, in the last few months, they've become associated with pretentious, anti-theistic, misogynists on a website I don't even go on? Yeah, don't really care. Not interested in giving up my favorite accessory just because a group of people I'm not even a part of have adopted it as a part of their stereotype. If you're going to make assumptions about me simply because of the hat I'm wearing, then that's your problem.

Also, fedoras are not remotely close to things like swastikas or those pointy white hoods that another poster brought up. Swastikas were the symbol of a political party that embarked on a horrific campaign of global conquest and genocide that left millions of people tortured and dead. The KKK regularly lynched people for the crime of having a different skin color. Fedoras...were worn by a few silly pricks taking silly selfies for a subforum of a website and got laughed at for it. If you're not even part of certain niches, you won't even know that this was even a thing, whereas everyone knows what swastikas and pointed white hoods are associated with. The worst that could be said about fedoras is that they're out of trend and most people don't wear it well. Fair enough, but don't go making assumptions about someone's character simply because they are wearing a certain kind of hat.

 

[Eamar]

Also, fedoras are not remotely close to things like swastikas or those pointy white hoods that another poster brought up. Swastikas were the symbol of a political party that embarked on a horrific campaign of global conquest and genocide that left millions of people tortured and dead. The KKK regularly lynched people for the crime of having a different skin color. Fedoras...were worn by a few silly pricks taking silly selfies for a subforum of a website and got laughed at for it. If you're not even part of certain niches, you won't even know that this was even a thing, whereas everyone knows what swastikas and pointed white hoods are associated with. The worst that could be said about fedoras is that they're out of trend and most people don't wear it well. Fair enough, but don't go making assumptions about someone's character simply because they are wearing a certain kind of hat.

I was going to answer the "known stereotype" points (again) but you nailed it perfectly. The sheer short-sightedness of people who assume they can extrapolate their personal internet experiences onto the world at large boggles my mind.

 

[mecegirl]

Really, the very idea of wearing a KKK robe and hood as casual attire wasn't a weird enough notion for you to guess I was being facetious? I mean the KKK thing is literally a uniform.

I actually have a story that sorta relates to this. I went overseas for a few months with my college a few years back and we had a field trip to a small art museum. One of the rooms was full of old paintings of people dressed similarly to the KKK (the pointed cap and everything). Of course it wasn't the KKK, the paintings were all French and made way before the KKK's time. Originally the outfit was used by Christian groups while seeking repentance. It was a way to foster unity within the church because under the robes you couldn't see gender or class. Me...well, I was immediately reminded of the KKK. Like holy shit did I walk into the wrong museum or something reminded,. I was also the only Black person in my class...the bulk of my classmates didn't think of it until I brought it up.

So yes good things can be corrupted by assholes.

Edit

I have like a really old and crappy picture that I took with my camera and uploaded onto Facebook so that you all can see.

Spoiler

 

[EternallyBored]

Isn't it great how once a problem affects men it has to be dealt with immediately?

Yeah, you shouldn't judge people based on their appearances. But you know who gets judged based on their appearances like clockwork but are widely ignored?

Muslims (terrorist)
Black people (gangster/criminal)
Women (slut/*****/take your pick)
Transexuals (man in a dress/gay cross-dresser)

These people tolerate these things because they're subjected to it all the time; it would be exhausting to fight back every single time, to the point that many people have gotten so used to it that it just seems like normal behaviour (which is what happens with sexism quite a bit).

I'm sorry, but no, as someone who has actively supported many of the feminist organizations in my area and been to national conventions, this is so wrong it's not even funny. Women have been fighting (and in some cases winning) against presumptions based around female clothing for years now, you do not get to come in here with some snarky comment about how we "only care about it when it involves men" and just erase the years of effort by thousands of people to twist this into some commentary about sexism.

Eamar noted in her first post that she is a feminist, and was making this thread because she personally saw the level of shaming surrounding an article of clothing as getting out of hand. That does not mean that Eamar or anyone else here has ignored the literally hundreds of awareness campaigns, slut walks, talks, articles, and books centered around the phenomenon of shaming women for what they wear, or trivializing rape by questioning a woman's clothing choices. The fact that you ignore all that and see one single thread as somehow indicative of this is patently preposterous on its face.

 

[Vault101]

I know mansplaining is it is basically a and can STFU in conversation and can easily be turned around with saying womansplaining both would just be conversational stopping point that solves nothing.

I already told you what it was (and I may not have used it correctly initially) but if you want a more formal definition

[quote/]Mansplaining is a portmanteau of the words "man" and "explaining" that describes the act of a man speaking to a woman on the assumption that she knows less than he does about the topic being discussed, even if it is obvious that she knows more. ...[/quote]

[quote/]If we are going to run with stereotypes and hold firm to fedora hate then you might as well suck it up and deal with the stigma that comes with mini skirt. I don't even know what the friendzone has to do with it just making a point that for all that stuff keeps getting attached to a fedora.[/quote]

I don't hold firm to fedora hate....I know what the sterotpye IS but generally its better to give people the benefit of the doubt



[quote/]

This whole fedora thing stopped being about feminism long time ago and just been people being more pretentious than the stereotype they bash or look side ways at are.[/quote]

the OP made a mistake turning this into afeminism thing when it really didnt need to be

 

[SidheKnight]

Excellent thread Eamar.

As a gamer/atheist/shy/straight/white/male who occasionally wears a Fedora, I don't like having to explain that I'm not THAT other type of Fedora wearer (you know, arrogant racist misogynist douchebag).

People shouldn't be judged for their choice of wearing.

Unless their choice of wearing happens to be a swastika and a KKK cone-hat.

 

[Vegosiux]

Mansplaining is a portmanteau of the words "man" and "explaining" that describes the act of a man speaking to a woman on the assumption that she knows less than he does about the topic being discussed, even if it is obvious that she knows more. ...

The problem is, is there a necessity for a term to exist for this specific situation? I mean, people talk at others like that all the time, but we don't have a word for every instance of it. If a conservative poster is trying to tell liberals he knows more about the liberal folks then they do, what's he doing, is he "conservasplaining"? If a geek talks to a jock allegedly knowing more about how jocks act than the jock does, is the geek "geeksplaining"?

Besides, what using "mansplaining" unironically often means is "Hey hey, look at me, I took two words and made a new word and now I'm using this new word to dazzle you with my rhetoric skills so you'll fall silent in amazement, aren't I smart and awesome?"

Or

"I used the word 'mansplaining'! Instant I.W.I.N., suckazzzz!"

Often. Bottom line is, I find it incredibly pretentious.

the OP made a mistake turning this into afeminism thing when it really didnt need to be

It's not the OP who turned this into a feminism thing. She's just pointed out a trend and said "Hey, folks, I think we better nip this one in the bud". And I'm quite in agreement with her and think it was a good idea.

And I'm not only saying that because she looks good wearing that hat. ("Suspiciously Specific Denial" would be the trope for this, but am I playing it straight? Am I?)

 

[Vault101]

The problem is, is there a necessity for a term to exist for this specific situation?

mabye..mabye not...but its a thing that happens and they came up with an (informal) name for it (for when it applies to being a gender thing)...not much you can do about that

[quote/]It's not the OP who turned this into a feminism thing. She's just pointed out a trend and said "Hey, folks, I think we better nip this one in the bud". And I'm quite in agreement with her and think it was a good idea.[/quote]

the word feminism makes people go nutty...as soon as she brought it up it implied that only feminists had a problem with fedoras (not true...plently of self called feminists wear them) which isn't true

 

[RandV80]

This sort of stuff is always seems so foreign, though I guess it's something where thanks to the internet a narrow age gap can make for a huge cultural difference (those that always had the internet vs those that grew up without it). I mean really Fedora shaming? Even when I was in high school there was always a couple of guys I think that kept Fedora around, but there was no 'nice guy' strawman label attached to it.

And I think the whole 'niceguy' thing is nonsense as well. Seems like guys started pushing the whole 'friend zone' thing for a while, building themselves a strawman out of the villainous/shameful female playing the role, which in itself was rather silly. Except when hitting back rather than taking a higher ground the other side simply sunk to the same level and rather than try to resolve or find some sort of common ground over 'the friend zone' issue simply created their own strawman and went hard on the offensive. Except this time it was way more viscous, where the mans 'friend zone' was more about feeling sorry for your fellow guy, the woman's friend zone targeted what are likely introverted males with some degree of social awkwardness, people that could use a helping hand, and outright vilified them as creepy weirdos. I mean there was even an article on the Escapist here a year or two ago that did exactly that. Brought up the hypothetical 'friend zone' situation, absolved the female role of any blame, and pinning it all on the male side as being borderline stalkers who thought they were owed sex.

Personally I've always been a compromiser at heart so this whole thing just irritates me. Before this whole thing blew up you know what I always thought was a great example of the 'friend zone'? Anyone here watch Stargate: Universe during its short run? Perfect setup with it's geek/babe/stud, where no one was at fault for anything and neither sides evil strawmen could be applied. Heck it even came to it's own natural resolution (short lived as it was) eventually when Eli the geek found his own girl. Why couldn't the feminist side take the high ground and respond with something like that?

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

I've never really understood it either. It's just a damn clothing choice, that doesn't affect anyone else. What I found interesting in particular, however, is this so-called "fedora bashing" happens on sites like this more than anywhere else. I really thought video game/geek cultures would be the last to judge people based on how they look, the clothes they feel comfortable in. Well, I was proven well wrong.

It's just completely silly.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Maybe I'm just too young but, who cares? Don't we have better things to worry about then what someone wheres? Like really? How is it important in your life?

First World Problems I guess...

 

[FriedRicer]

While I can't really comment on the feminist aspect on the fedora-hate, the atheist part seems really weird. Like threads and tumblr's making fun of people for being smug about being atheist....While its true that some atheists are uneducated- some of the jokes are down right anti science. I finally saw the original "euphoric" quote and it's leaps and bounds better than anything I've heard a religious person use to defend faith. Can't really see the power behind ridiculing someone who wont believe something spiritual without evidence.

OTon't like fedoras but Yahtzee owns it! It may be clothes-shaming a group with more power in todays society, but if would be wrong if/when society changes...we should just stop now.

 

[Lieju]

I'm a feminist and I wear this:

Spoiler

Because screw you, I have worn hats like fedoras before this whole stereotype was a thing.

Does the snake come with the hat? Please tell me the snake comes with the hat XD

Either way, awesome snake hat!

She prefers hanging around my neck. Much warmer.

 

[Caiphus]

I've never really understood it either. It's just a damn clothing choice, that doesn't affect anyone else. What I found interesting in particular, however, is this so-called "fedora bashing" happens on sites like this more than anywhere else. I really thought video game/geek cultures would be the last to judge people based on how they look, the clothes they feel comfortable in. Well, I was proven well wrong.

It's just completely silly.

Yeah, I've only ever seen this phenomenon on the Internet. Both the wearing of fedoras, and the stereotyping of people who wear them. I think they look a bit silly when worn with casual clothes, but that's purely a fashion opinion. If it wasn't for the Internet, I'd never have found out that they're apparently only worn by assholes? I guess?

But no, geek culture can be just as judgemental about trivial stuff as any other. It's unfortunate really, but we can be rather vicious bullies when we feel like it.

 

[VanQ]

I was going to answer the "known stereotype" points (again) but you nailed it perfectly. The sheer short-sightedness of people who assume they can extrapolate their personal internet experiences onto the world at large boggles my mind.

I know that this is only somewhat related since feminist is in the thread title, but this sentence just so perfectly sums up my views on things like tumblr and internet feminists that it blew my mind.

 

[Eamar]

the word feminism makes people go nutty...as soon as she brought it up it implied that only feminists had a problem with fedoras (not true...plently of self called feminists wear them) which isn't true

Now that's just unnecessarily defensive. It in no way implies that only feminists have an issue with it (plenty of people who don't describe themselves as feminists have admitted having a problem with them in this thread). All I was doing was addressing a particular facet of the fedora hate. And frankly, as I've pointed out several times (and as Vegosiux pointed out), this is less about fedoras themselves and more about the hypocrisy of feminists criticising/judging people based on their clothing choices, something I think needs to be nipped in the bud.

As for some feminists wearing fedoras - absolutely. I'm one of them. But as the standard internet debating line goes: feminism is not a monolith. You can't just say "some feminists wear fedoras, therefore no feminists have issues with them."

I automatically get a bit riled up when I perceive an attack on feminists too, but that doesn't mean we're beyond reproach.