Femme Armor Sacrifices Safety for Sex Appeal

mirasiel

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Jordi said:
While I don't mind watching that actress in that outfit, I do kind of wish that female armor would make more sense than it does now. And it can in fact be both nice/sexy and somewhat functional looking. Check out Aribeth from Neverwinter Nights:


She's still a bit unprotected below the neck, but I think they could have easily added some leather or chainmail there without it looking much worse.
Y'know I liked Aribeth but her armor is *bad* ...do you know what would happen about to about %75 of the blows that hit her chest armor?
It would be channeled upwards into her neck and face and she dies.

Then again she's a paladin of Tyr (the maimed god, iirc), so maybe thats their thing or she has +5 divine protection v jugular severance.

Still, yes, better than chainmail bikini :)
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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A lot of people seem to miss the point here entirely. I find that the joke loses some steam because people take it too seriously, and there actually are nerds who try and treat this as a serious issue, largely because they feel that by speaking against fantasy artwork it will make them more appealing to women.


It's important to understand that through most of history women were second class citizens at best for a number of reasons. It's not just a lack of physical strength but also relative vulnerability compared to men. See, women have these things called "breasts" which are very sensitive. A girl gets slammed in that area, and the closest analogy for you gentlemen would be to getting kicked in the nuts.... and the size of the breasts in question doesn't paticularly matter here.

It's relevent to this discussion because what this means is that your "sensibly armored" female warrior is going to be totally ineffective in things like plate or chain mail. A blow to the chest which a guy in a breastplate would shrug off is going to take a lady out of the fight instantly.

You might be thinking "well, then how did women fight historically..." and the answer to that is that they didn't. There are rare exceptions of course, like Joan Of Arc, but in most cases such women were as much a political prescence as they were actually effective on the battlefield in a personal sense, and again your dealing with rare individuals, an exception, rather than the rule.

Now, in the course of fantasy there has been a tendency to want to portray a bit more equality. Ignoring things like how women simply can't reach the same physical peaks as men, and how they are always going to "underperform" at the high end assuming people who take fighting seriously and reach their peak. ESPN did a thing many years ago where there was some lady who was ranked like #2 in the world for women's martial arts who wanted to go cross gender, she got pitted against a guy who was like #30 on the men's side or something and after all the hype he pretty much just played with her... athletics are segregated because it's not a small differance. Still in fantasy when you ignore this and are playing "what if"
it raises questions about what a female medieval warrior might look like.

A lot of the fantasy artists responsible for the looks like the "chain mail bikini" and "brass link bra" were operating from the perspective that anatomically your not going to be able to armor a girl for melee combat. The key problem of course being the breasts, the area being too big and central to the motions needed to really armor the way a guy's soft spot can be protected with a cup. You try and build a "cup" around the breasts it's going to either be huge and cumbersome, or not be able to deal with the impact in question.

Women today who do fighting and athletics tend to use things like Gis, spandex, leotards, etc... the same as men. However in ancient europe such fabrics didn't exist. The comment about "mobility" becomes very valid as your looking at someone whose only potential combat strategy is going to be able to move out of the way, and the anatomy being what it is the lady in question is going to want support. The "Plate Mail Halter Top" isn't going to protect in a fight much, but it will at least prevent the skin from being split open if she takes a shot to the chest and for whatever reason the enemy doesn't finish the fight.

I point this out because I've actually read some things about it. One thing to remember is that a lot of the early fantasy artists and illustrators... like say Frank Frazetta who famously did artwork for "Conan", were pretty heavily into athletics and such themselves and were pretty much told "this is what you need to do a picture of" and they improvised, using what was actually a fairly surprising amount of common sense.

The thing is the tendency for people to go "OMG, a half naked lady! exploitation!" when really I think this is less of an issue than you might think. Especially seeing as female artists like Julie Bell who do this kind of material tend to go in a very similar direction, and if you really stop to think about it, it's pretty obvious why.

A character like Samus Aran, or heck most modern or futuristic action ladies, have the advantage of being from a higher tech level. Guns and tech being the great equalizer, combat is no longer about personal athletic abillity to the same extent. I don't think Samus' armor was ever broken down in how it works, but in fiction such armor suits include things like anti-kinetic gel layers in the armor, built in dampening fields, and other things. Basically a suit of super battle armor that is going to be able to bounce bullets fired off an electromagnetic rail off it's chest (well at least for a while) without splattering the person inside due to the impact is going to render the sensitivity of the chest area kind of a moot point by definition. When it comes to things like cyberpunk, questions can be raised as to why a lot of the women dress the way they do, but at the same time you can ask why women dress the same way IRL.... or why fantasy novels written by women largely for women (like Kim Harrison's "The Hollows") are probably WORSE in the way they have the women dressing than the stuff guys come up with.

I understand the joke is from College Humor, but it's old, and truthfully I'm kind of tired of it. I've been defending fantasy, and fantasy art for many years now.

My typical response is to challenge a lot of the critics to actually come up with a mode of dress that would be more functional than what some of these ladies are wearing. In some cases when the costumes are admittedly obnoxious (it does happen) that's easy, in other cases not so much. Like it or not a leather skirt, knee boots, and halter top is a fairly practical costume for this kind of action. Even the question of "why a skirt, when everyone else is wearing pants" is fairly easy to answer... try doing a full split in a pair of pants if your capable of one. Gymnists don't wear regular pants when doing their thing for a reason, they are going to get torn out fairly easily. One thing girls have on guys is that they can do splits and a lot of flexibility based moves a lot more easily than guys can and with less practice/training, you can see the differances in men and women's gymnastics for example. A skirt is going to be more condusive in many (but not all) cases to a woman's full range of movement in the situations she's going into. When you look at the stereotypical female rogues and such who wear those costumes... they are exactly the kinds of characters who would be thinking that way, which is probably why a lot of the artists drew them that way to begin with.

Of course in more eastern flavored fantasy where silk is more readily availible at the generic "ancient level", that presents other wardrobe options for both genders that tend to go beyond the points being made above... but that's usually not the kind of setting being dealt with.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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mirasiel said:
Jordi said:
While I don't mind watching that actress in that outfit, I do kind of wish that female armor would make more sense than it does now. And it can in fact be both nice/sexy and somewhat functional looking. Check out Aribeth from Neverwinter Nights:


She's still a bit unprotected below the neck, but I think they could have easily added some leather or chainmail there without it looking much worse.
Y'know I liked Aribeth but her armor is *bad* ...do you know what would happen about to about %75 of the blows that hit her chest armor?
It would be channeled upwards into her neck and face and she dies.

Then again she's a paladin of Tyr (the maimed god, iirc), so maybe thats their thing or she has +5 divine protection v jugular severance.

Still, yes, better than chainmail bikini :)

Well, she'd probably be dropped simply from the impact to the chest. HOWEVER, I will point out that "Forgotten Realms" is a massively magically inflated setting, where they literally sell magical items off the streets in places like Neverwinter, Waterdeep, and Raven's Bluff. A lot has been said about the setting and it's gamability for this reasons (accusations of it being a munchkin D&D setting and so on), but you have to take it as it is. While it doesn't nessicarly justify all the AD&D artwork accross the settings, in The Forgotten Realms there is probably enough magic in the armor someone like that is wearing for it not to matter. Heck, at her status level (and given how easy enchantments can be under some rules sets) she probably had the armor custom made for her. As for why she'd want it to look sexy like that, well... let's just say girls dress like that in real life. I don't think Chasity is a big part of Tyr's mandates for his Paladins and priests either (I'd have to check), although he isn't one of the deities that whose clerics throws daily orgies or S&M parties (which a few do) as part of the regular services. :p

Typically when "The Forgotten Realms" comes up people tend to point to Alias from the cover of "Azure Bonds", but in her case when she actually wears the armor shown there it's pointed out that the suit is heavily enchanted. It's more of a set of clothing with a protection field, and it's commented that people keep trying to hit her straight on, but usually wind up slamming into a force field if I remember. It's like an item "of protection" (ie ring, etc..).

Of course then again The Forgotten Realms is also a setting where if I remember it's literally a viable defensive strategy to go into battle wearing nothing but a thong and body paint (for either gender) since I vaguely remember enchanted body paint of protection being fairly cheap in Waterdeep, but prevented you from wearing clothing or armor where the paint covered to gain the protection. In a few games I played in we had mages and monks (of both genders) using it.
 

mirasiel

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Therumancer said:
mirasiel said:
Jordi said:
While I don't mind watching that actress in that outfit, I do kind of wish that female armor would make more sense than it does now. And it can in fact be both nice/sexy and somewhat functional looking. Check out Aribeth from Neverwinter Nights:


She's still a bit unprotected below the neck, but I think they could have easily added some leather or chainmail there without it looking much worse.
Y'know I liked Aribeth but her armor is *bad* ...do you know what would happen about to about %75 of the blows that hit her chest armor?
It would be channeled upwards into her neck and face and she dies.

Then again she's a paladin of Tyr (the maimed god, iirc), so maybe thats their thing or she has +5 divine protection v jugular severance.

Still, yes, better than chainmail bikini :)
~snip~

yes, I know Faerun is a pretty high magic place but I was ignoring that as we were talking about general armor design because once we go "lols magicks" then the chainmail bikini comes back in again as a viable design choice :p

As I said, I liked Aribeth (fuck you Nasher* btw, she didnt deserve to die) and her armor design, I just wouldnt put it forward as a 'Good' armor :)

As for her being 'chaste' I think that is a thing for Tyrran Paladins, Im sure she mentions something along those linkes with re her relationship with Fenthick (again fuck you Nasher* you spineless schmuck) and I think Casavir (also a Paladin of Tyr) is the same in NWN 2.


*Seriously Nasher is the weakest fucking leader I have ever seen, a political scheming toad who happily sacrifices those loyal to him to appease the fucking mob, he does it again in NWN 2. Honestly I was always looking for the story line that would lead to me putting his fucking head on a pike and putting someone competent with an intact spine on the throne.....yes, I have been replaying Neverwinter nights again, how did you guess?
 

WolfThomas

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Dec 21, 2007
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This is why I always play a male, I can't stand the female armour. I remember in Morrowind originally most armours had the same texture for male and female (I think they they patched some to my annoyance), but bam in Oblivion chainmall bikinis.

Dave Luckett wrote a trilogy that was pretty good in that all the heroes were knights in realistically depicted plate and the few female warriors were plain bordering ulgy, fanatical and wore appropriate mail.
 

Sean Steele

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BehattedWanderer said:
I actually liked how Dragon Age handled this. The only skimpy armor around is the leather, and that really doesn't get that skimpy. Hell, Fallout 3 showed more skin than that. Full plate stays full plate, no matter who it's on.
When did fallout get more skimpy? The only clothes that looked different by gender was the pre war civilian clothes..

Dragon Age after all still had the one chick who went around using a scarf and some beads as clothing and the other chick (In DA2) Whose tits were so huge that I cant imagine her arm reach infront of her torso was more then a few inches and also, if no one else noticed was not wearing pants but rather long long boots.

For every Aveline (WHO I think is a perfect representation of what a woman fighter should look like, you know like a tough as nails fighter.)

There was an Isabella who looked like a stripper who happened to have knives.
 

WolfThomas

Man must have a code.
Dec 21, 2007
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A person on a mount and blade forums summed it up quite accurately "Breasts conform to metal, not the other way around"






 

JoelChenFA

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Nov 24, 2010
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vxicepickxv said:
Clewin said:
Also having worn heavy plate (tournament plate), I'd bet on the girl in the chainmail bikini - you can't see out of those helmets, you're almost immobile encased in 300lbs of iron, and it is easy to be knocked off balance. Once you're on the ground, you're as good as dead because it is pretty much impossible to stand without the help of a squire, so all they have to do is find a seam and stick a sword in.
If you take a look at modern body armor, it's much more specific as to what it protects, and is generally much more useful, simply because it's much better armor. It's relatively practical, and is much more effective at stopping much more than ancient armor was. Of course, all of it is due to scientific advances in just about everything.
One word. Kevlar. Basically its overpowered armour for medieval times. Movement speed of leather. Protective powers exceeding plate.
 

BehattedWanderer

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Jun 24, 2009
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Sean Steele said:
BehattedWanderer said:
I actually liked how Dragon Age handled this. The only skimpy armor around is the leather, and that really doesn't get that skimpy. Hell, Fallout 3 showed more skin than that. Full plate stays full plate, no matter who it's on.
When did fallout get more skimpy? The only clothes that looked different by gender was the pre war civilian clothes..

Dragon Age after all still had the one chick who went around using a scarf and some beads as clothing and the other chick (In DA2) Whose tits were so huge that I cant imagine her arm reach infront of her torso was more then a few inches and also, if no one else noticed was not wearing pants but rather long long boots.

For every Aveline (WHO I think is a perfect representation of what a woman fighter should look like, you know like a tough as nails fighter.)

There was an Isabella who looked like a stripper who happened to have knives.
Not sure who you are talking about with the scarf, in all honesty. And the difference between a warrior girl and Isabella is that Isabella makes no pretense of armor. She is there as a pirate wench, designed as a pirate wench, and damn if she doesn't completely nail the pirate wench entirely. If she is seen in a chainmail bikini, it's because she's playing with a man, not because she's wearing it to battle. For functional attire, Aveline is exactly what I meant about the series. Solid, armor wearing, shield bearing, very defensible.
 

WolfThomas

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Dec 21, 2007
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JoelChenFA said:
One word. Kevlar. Basically its overpowered armour for medieval times. Movement speed of leather. Protective powers exceeding plate.
I remember my mate who is in the Australian Army bitching that his armour (plus ceramic plates) was actually heavier than a medieval knights "and he got a horse".
 

Spoonius

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Jul 18, 2009
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I thought Bungie handled Kat pretty well... athletic and highly capable, but not really sexualised at all.
 

Racecarlock

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I don't have a problem with opinions or anything, but what part of this is news? This belongs in the gaming discussion forum. This isn't fox, where opinions are news. This is the escapist.
 

Alar

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Dec 1, 2009
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MasterOfWorlds said:
"Ow, it's pinching!" XD

"Oh, right in the shiny part!" XD

In all seriousness though, while I'm a fan of seeing attractive women in outfits that compliment their figure, armor is not one of them. I'm also a very practicle person, and am a firm believer in the concept of armor actually protecting the vital areas.

Now, that doesn't mean that there can't be other areas where they can show how sexy female characters can be, but there should be places for that sort of thing.
Those were unexpected and highly enjoyable.

I, for one, like the full breastplate with armored skirt design I've seen portrayed in some games/artwork. It's something that the Roman's themselves would be proud to wear!
 

whtkid6969

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Jul 11, 2010
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Sex sells. A LOT. I wish i could be more proud and say it wasn't like that, but it does. even to me.
 

Sean Deli

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*deleted*
Just realised 3 people pointed out exactly the same already.

Oh, I found a better post to qoute and comment on!

Therumancer said:
there actually are nerds who try and treat this as a serious issue, largely because they feel that by speaking against fantasy artwork it will make them more appealing to women.
No, there are also people who attack fantasy armor because they are, you know, history majors and they know what armor women used to fight in really! It was simple male armor. The way 14-15 century plate armor for males was built, it had more than enough room for breasts of almost any size.

Therumancer said:
A lot of the fantasy artists responsible for the looks like the "chain mail bikini" and "brass link bra" were operating from the perspective that anatomically your not going to be able to armor a girl for melee combat. The key problem of course being the breasts, the area being too big and central to the motions needed to really armor the way a guy's soft spot can be protected with a cup. You try and build a "cup" around the breasts it's going to either be huge and cumbersome, or not be able to deal with the impact in question.

Women today who do fighting and athletics tend to use things like Gis, spandex, leotards, etc... the same as men. However in ancient europe such fabrics didn't exist. The comment about "mobility" becomes very valid as your looking at someone whose only potential combat strategy is going to be able to move out of the way, and the anatomy being what it is the lady in question is going to want support. The "Plate Mail Halter Top" isn't going to protect in a fight much, but it will at least prevent the skin from being split open if she takes a shot to the chest and for whatever reason the enemy doesn't finish the fight.
You have no idea how body armor works. After being hit, the brass bra without any padding (and since you can see the skin right over metal in most cases - it does not have any padding) will cut the breast it is meant to protect clear off. That's a). Most of male armor was meant to deflect blows, and thus had nice curvy surfaces leading away from the wearer. Metal bra leads the blade right into the soft skin of neck or belly. The blow deflected from the metal bra - instead of leaving an ugly, yet healable wound over the rib cage, would either split the guts or cut open a neck. That's a b)

Therumancer said:
I point this out because I've actually read some things about it.
From the type of reasoning you present - you would be better off reading a bit more on history of sword fighting.
If you want a female to fight melee - she can wear same armour as men. If you want her to be dressed for mobility, she can wear men's light armour - e.g. gambesons.

Fantazy artists went for the sex appeal - and as much as I understand them doing that (it did result in some good art!) - any attempt to present any reasoning besides "sex sells" for a metal bra can not succeed. Because there is not other sense in metal bra. Period.
 

Beautiful End

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I immediately thought of Dragon Age: Origins. I recently gave Leliana some armor. Said armor covered my Grey warden completely, head to toes. And yet, when she wore it, she somehow managed to make it more...sexy. And that's not exactly a compliment.

...I have to admit that another set of armor that covered her completely looked horrible on her.
 

Clonekiller

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Dec 7, 2010
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Video game designers still haven't quite caught on yet that protective armor must be form fitting to work. As a result, girls in full plate armor can look AWESOME. Team Vindictus totally gets this. Check it out.

http://img2.mmo.mmo4arab.com/vindictus/images/overview/leaguesys6.jpg
http://www.vindictuswiki.com/w/images/thumb/5/50/Fiona_guide_5.png/500px-Fiona_guide_5.png
http://www.vindictuswiki.com/w/images/a/ae/Fiona_Blood_Prince.png