Btw, those fate ghosts were in Advent Children, you can see them swarm around the shinra building in the same exact way, so this isn't some new thing this game came up with to be edgy, they just kinda expanded on it some.
Final Fantasy 7 Remake Full Review - I have thoughts. (spoilers at the end)
- Thread starter CritialGaming
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That's part of the meat behind some of the speculation, really.Silvanus said:
To make a long story short, it feels like a Sephiroth who has already lived through the events of the original game. Whereas pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth dismissed Cloud as some nobody who got a lucky shot off on him, post-Meteor Sephiroth explicitly managed to retain his sense of self in the Lifestream by fixating on Cloud and his anger at being again thwarted by him, hence his Advent Children characterization. And Remake Sephiroth feels very much like Advent Children Sephiroth. View that alongside the Whispers and the inconsistencies they work to correct...well suffice it to say that speculation is that Sephiroth may be pulling a Days of Future Past; projecting his consciousness back into his past to try and tweak events to have a more favorable outcome. And that...surprisingly feels like a natural next step for him.
Supersoldier gets mortally wounded and falls into the Lifestream. His body gets crystalized and unusable, but he becomes more dangerous than ever through his newfound enlightenment and by using his 'clones' as proxies. He attempts to grievously wound the planet to cause a defensive reaction that would allow him to achieve apotheosis. He fails and disappears into the Lifestream again. And once again he retains his sense of self and becomes more dangerous still, this time polluting the Lifestream itself and being able to exert control over those that are contaminated by it (Geostigma in Advent Children). Additionally his sheer force of will manifests three knock-off aspects who work to fully revive him. He's successfully revived, and quickly put down again. Maybe for good this time, but considering the guy takes to mortal injury almost as well as Saiyans in Dragonball do...*shrug*. What I'm getting at is that the idea of him going full Skynet feels like it could be in-character escalation rather than coming wholly out of left field (unlike in Days of Future Past)
Supersoldier gets mortally wounded and falls into the Lifestream. His body gets crystalized and unusable, but he becomes more dangerous than ever through his newfound enlightenment and by using his 'clones' as proxies. He attempts to grievously wound the planet to cause a defensive reaction that would allow him to achieve apotheosis. He fails and disappears into the Lifestream again. And once again he retains his sense of self and becomes more dangerous still, this time polluting the Lifestream itself and being able to exert control over those that are contaminated by it (Geostigma in Advent Children). Additionally his sheer force of will manifests three knock-off aspects who work to fully revive him. He's successfully revived, and quickly put down again. Maybe for good this time, but considering the guy takes to mortal injury almost as well as Saiyans in Dragonball do...*shrug*. What I'm getting at is that the idea of him going full Skynet feels like it could be in-character escalation rather than coming wholly out of left field (unlike in Days of Future Past)
Wasn't Advent Children widely panned? Borrowing plot elements from that movie is like borrowing from Superman 64 to make the next Superman film.Dreiko said:
Well it got a 33% critical score on Rotten Tomatoes. It looked pretty and had nice fight choreography and music, but that was all it had going for it. The plot and character writing was complete nonsense.Dreiko said:
Opinions on this forum about the movie has generally been pretty negative as well.
Umm...Yes and No. Here's kind of the way I see it.dscross said:
No it doesn't fit into the world as a whole, though Final Fantasy has almost always dealt with timeline manipulation since the very first game. So while it might no directly fit into what FF7 has specifically set up, it does fit with the grand themes that the series had been playing with since day 1.
The main reason I really agree with what they've done here, is that in my fantasies I always just wanted a 1-to-1 remake of the original game but with voice acting and pretty as fuck graphics. Which is initially what everyone thought they were getting with this game. However what we ended up with is a rather brilliant subversion of expectations that allows for new and old players alike to get really invested in the characters and lore of the FF7 world while also managing to transform the original story in such a way that it becomes new for all players.
Basically what it amounts to, is that they've managed to create a Remake starter game that acts as a retelling and a sequel all at the same time. Which is more incredible the more I got deep into the analytics of the story here.
I get why some people might be upset by it. And that's fine, I think it's narrow minded but whatever I guess. Personally I feel delighted to see what comes next because what I thought was coming, might not be coming, and it's like I've gotten to erase my favorite game of all time from my memory to completely experience it for the first time again.
And themes of the original game can still take place here, just in a different way. The theme of lost and identity now can be presented in the following ways.
1. Cloud now has to deal with separating who he is, versus who Zack is and how to come to terms with the fact that he isn't who or what he believes he is. This remains one track from the original and new story elements only enhance this not detract it.
2. Aerith knows what her fate is, she knows everything that happened in the original and now has to come to terms with what she must do. How will this effect who she is, will she keep the threads of the original on course or will she work for an even better outcome?
3. Barrett doesn't know what to do with himself anyone. He doesn't know who he is or what he must do with himself. Forever he believed that Shinra was the enemy, Shrina was to be blamed for all his problems, now he has learned that isn't the case and there is something even worse out there. He will have to find his identity in fighting a new enemy for the life of the planet which at his core I do believe he thinks that's his calling in life.
4. Tifa has lost everything, her hometown, her new home and bar, most of her friends, and all she has left is Cloud who isn't the guy she remembers. She is so unsure of him, yet so afraid of losing the last thing she has in the world. Cloud is Tifa's lifeline, she loves him because he is all she has left in the world and if she lost him too.....she has nothing. That's why she is the one who saves Cloud at every chance in the original game as well as the Remake. (she dives into Clouds mind to help him remember who he really is in the original game. And in the Remake she saves him from falling like three times.) Tifa is always the one who is there for Cloud.
First of all, the game boots new players out at the very end. It's incredibly friendly to people who are new to the franchise for 95% of the game as it takes its time to introduce the characters and the world. But then toward to the end it's like 'well fuck you, you should've played the original'. And it'd be fine if it was a little scene at the end, but we get an almost hour long sequence that states with no uncertainty that this is what everything was all about; subverting the original plotline.CritialGaming said:
And disregarding how unfriendly that sequence is to new players, it makes everything you experienced previously feel meaningless. Because instead of getting any real emotional closure to the characters and their current journey, we get some climax about fighting destiny itself, when that was not what the game was about at all.
The main plot of the game is Avalance versus Shinra, the people on either side and the ones caught in the middle. That's what the game spends nearly all its time trying to get you invested in. The destiny ghosts show up only occasionally and are then immediately ignored for the main plot. The game actively wants you to know about them, but then quickly is like 'nah, forget about that and just enjoy the actual story'. None of the characters really make a point to actually figure out what the heck is going on with these things, and the story doesn't weave them into the plot at all. They're just there for hardcore fans to geek out over what subversion to the main plot they might bring next.
The subversion isn't part of the story, it's 100% fanservice. That's what the ending was all about, and that's why it's bad.
I dunno. I dont see it that way at all.
Most of the major fans are pissed over the fanservice so does it count as fanservice if the fans didn't want it?
We can agree to disagree here because the plot subversion happens in the original as well. You run around with AVALANCHE fighting Shrina for the first 6 hours of the original game, then you get to the Shrina building and all of a sudden you are global trotting to chase an alien and a super soldier.
The shit plays out the same really. And the only difference at the core is that they had to break up the remake into episodes.
Most of the major fans are pissed over the fanservice so does it count as fanservice if the fans didn't want it?
We can agree to disagree here because the plot subversion happens in the original as well. You run around with AVALANCHE fighting Shrina for the first 6 hours of the original game, then you get to the Shrina building and all of a sudden you are global trotting to chase an alien and a super soldier.
The shit plays out the same really. And the only difference at the core is that they had to break up the remake into episodes.
I'm not sure that type of subversion is comparable tbh. The plot of the OG didn't waiver from its themes, even at that point during the game. They hadn't even introduced Sepiroth at that point - yeah he'd just killed one of the main antagonists but it was done in a mystery sort of way which was to be uncovered, slowly and deliberately over the course of the game and it didn't get in the way of the main plot at all. There were no major sudden major 'endgame' boss fights of anyone we hadn't properly been introduced to yet. Plus, Shinra are still ever-present bad guys in it all the way through anyway, it's just Sepiroth turns out to be the bigger threat.CritialGaming said:
Just because fans didn't want it doesn't mean it isn't expressely put there for people who are very familiar with the original game. And it seems pretty evenly split as far as I can tell, maybe even leaning more towards fans overall being positive about it.CritialGaming said:
Yeah, but not in the space of a couple of minutes though, right? I doubt you instantly run into an alien or whatever when you escape Shinra HQ in the original game.
And I'd be okay with all this fate/destiny crap if it at all reflected on the characters or the plot that we'd been sitting through. It doesn't. It's there for the fans alone, no other reason. And fanservice is fine, but this is the ending. It's supposed to be a culmination of everything that came before; The characters we've met and the situations they've been in. But instead the ending decides to put the full focus on what was a passing interest at best.
The game itself doesn't even seem interested in the destiny ghosts until the final hour, where suddenly it's the most important thing in the bloody universe. They should've left this shit the fuck alone and made an ending that focused on the characters and the new sense of trusts that they established with one another. Which is what would've happened if they'd cut out the dimension hopping and just had them ride their vehicles out of the city where we then see them overlooking Midgar as the continue on. There were enough little moments that were meta and 4th wall breaking to infer something was different now. It didn't need to use a sledgehammer and sacrifice the intergrity of the narrative, and completely ignore the characters just to make sure we got it.
This ending showed that the focus of this game didn't lie on the characters or the story, but on the very concept of it being a remake. Wow, brilliant. 40+ hours down the drain for a 'got ya'. Square must feel soooo smart.
Asita said:
I found Advent Children Sephiroth to be pretty unbearable and out-of-tone, playing to the very worst impulses of anime villains. The film was trying very hard with him.
If that speculation is on-target, and he's projecting himself back in time, then I'd consider that even worse than I thought: deciding to build not on FF7 itself, but on its poorly-received edgelord tie-in expanded universe, is a terrible choice. It would also represent sacrificing the storyline of FF7 for Kingdom Hearts-esque unnecessary complexity, which would be another poor trade.
If that speculation is on-target, and he's projecting himself back in time, then I'd consider that even worse than I thought: deciding to build not on FF7 itself, but on its poorly-received edgelord tie-in expanded universe, is a terrible choice. It would also represent sacrificing the storyline of FF7 for Kingdom Hearts-esque unnecessary complexity, which would be another poor trade.
That's not the same subversion at all. What you have in the original isn't a subversion so much as playing with expectations. It builds the expectation that Shinra will act as the primary villain, before you find out that your primary focus is going to lie elsewhere.CritialGaming said:
...But Final Fantasy had already done similar things in FF4 and FF6. They love multiple villains, they love intrigue and playing with expectation. It's just another formula. It's not a "subversion" because that defied expectation doesn't actually make any particular point about the story you thought you'd be playing through, taking down Shinra. It's just that you thought it'd be one thing, and then it was something else. That aint subversion.
The Remake is a subversion in a sense...
...though it's not really a "subversion" of the original FF7 story, but a "subversion" of what a remake means at all. It takes the status of the original game, as a story that has already played out, and applies that in a meta-narrative way. So yeah, that's enormously different. It shifts the entire story into a meta-narrative about fate that didn't exist at all in the original.
I never played the original FF7 and thus can enjoy the game without any nostalgia baggage. As such the ghosts don't bother me too much though I do think they are the least interesting part of the game.
I never played the original but I have been exposed to Cloud and Sephiroth through different games. They always struck me as the worst Final Fantasy protagonist and antagonist. Whenever they appear outside of FF7 they always came across as the most boring characters imaginable. Cloud is just some emo killjoy who's never interested in anything and Sephiroth is defined solely by his desire to mess with Cloud. I did always hear that these depictions were somewhat out of character and not representative of their real selves so I did give them a chance to prove me wrong. One did, the other didn't.
Cloud is far more expressive then expected. Rather then an emotionless killjoy he's dorky and really shy, with his too cool for school persona being an act to mask that. I can appreciate that. With Sephiroth however pretty much all alarm bells start going off. If Sephiroth was different in the original then Squire has deliberately chosen to use his more boring post FF7 version for this game. Every time he appears he's given a reverence that comes more from his status within the fandom then his status within Midgar, and like all other games Sephiroth seems to get out of bed each morning solely to find new ways to bully Cloud. Sephiroth is just as boring as he's always been.
I never played the original but I have been exposed to Cloud and Sephiroth through different games. They always struck me as the worst Final Fantasy protagonist and antagonist. Whenever they appear outside of FF7 they always came across as the most boring characters imaginable. Cloud is just some emo killjoy who's never interested in anything and Sephiroth is defined solely by his desire to mess with Cloud. I did always hear that these depictions were somewhat out of character and not representative of their real selves so I did give them a chance to prove me wrong. One did, the other didn't.
Cloud is far more expressive then expected. Rather then an emotionless killjoy he's dorky and really shy, with his too cool for school persona being an act to mask that. I can appreciate that. With Sephiroth however pretty much all alarm bells start going off. If Sephiroth was different in the original then Squire has deliberately chosen to use his more boring post FF7 version for this game. Every time he appears he's given a reverence that comes more from his status within the fandom then his status within Midgar, and like all other games Sephiroth seems to get out of bed each morning solely to find new ways to bully Cloud. Sephiroth is just as boring as he's always been.
There's "DEEP LORE" stuff going on behind Cloud's attitude and personality. You see him open up during the duration of this game but there's a lot going on there.Hades said:
Sephiroth...wasn't in the original. Not in these parts of the game anyway. They're bringing him in and using spoiler plot things to have him be part of the early game events because he's one of the most iconic villains in videogame history so just not having him do pretty much anything and waiting another couple of years before he shows up wouldn't make sense based on his popularity.