Finished Dark Souls: Disappointed with it's combat

[Athennesi]

This whole argument seemed to start by a questioning of the logic that the heaviest of them should require much greater strength, and that therefore they could only be wielded at a fraction of the speed that a normal sword or spear could. The point I'm trying to make is that a game can be based in fantasy and still retain some logic of real world physics.

I'm afraid we've wound up arguing about an agreement... I agree with you absolutely, it makes sense in-world and that's all that matters, but the idea that the combat is realistic that is a claim that is thrown around all the time (not by you) and it really... isn't. Again I think the combat is fine, its essentially Zelda for grownups!

Yeah, it makes me wonder how Kingdome Come: Deliverance is going to turn out, since that is "supposedly" going to have more realistic medieval era combat.

 

[Redryhno]

This whole argument seemed to start by a questioning of the logic that the heaviest of them should require much greater strength, and that therefore they could only be wielded at a fraction of the speed that a normal sword or spear could. The point I'm trying to make is that a game can be based in fantasy and still retain some logic of real world physics.

I'm afraid we've wound up arguing about an agreement... I agree with you absolutely, it makes sense in-world and that's all that matters, but the idea that the combat is realistic that is a claim that is thrown around all the time (not by you) and it really... isn't. Again I think the combat is fine, its essentially Zelda for grownups!

Yeah, it makes me wonder how Kingdome Come: Deliverance is going to turn out, since that is "supposedly" going to have more realistic medieval era combat.

From what I've seen it seems to be pretty good, bit of Mount&Blade, bit of...I forget the name of it, but it came out of Greenlight like six months ago as an isometric RPG that has some kind of mouse-driven realistic combat, and alot of the menus gave me a Crusader 1099AD and Drakengard vibe, which I personally consider pretty damn cool.

Graphics are un-optimized as fuck though. Skallagrim on youtube had a video on it where turning the graphics all the way up made it run smoothly but lowering it just turned it into a seizurific texture nightmare.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Still better combat then the Witcher 3.

Honestly, Dark Souls combat is a bit clunky but... it's kind of part of the charm. To me, at least. It responds well how you need it to, and overall works universally. Most creatures can be parried, falling off of stuff kills enemies too, you can be backstabbed as well as the enemies. This, to me, makes it stand out so much more then other games, where not everyone plays by the same rules.

Though... I can't think of many people who praise dark souls purely from it's combat. And if you're gonna approach it and just look at the problems it has without anything else, well. I can't help you. Maybe it's not just your jam?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Eh, I think we can agree that Anor Londo is one of the least intuitive places in the game. Blighttown was a ***** to go through, but at least you pretty much always had something guiding you, whether it just be a simple direction of going down or the platforms of refuse in the lake of shit. Londo is just "fuck you"-ville with how they decided platforming on butresses when you haven't done anything nearly that small or with that kind of pressure before then.

As a first time player (still haven't actually finished the game) I found Anor Londo quite okay (except the boss, holy fuck). I felt like Sen's Fortress was adequate preparation for it, to be honest. Personally, I found the spear knights much harder than the archers because, until that point I'd been over-relying on blocking with a spear and hadn't figured out the benefits of side stepping. But that's the cool thing about dark souls, learned knowledge is important (not just in the immediate twitch skill sense, but in the "aha, now I know your attack patterns" sense).

 

[Redryhno]

Eh, I think we can agree that Anor Londo is one of the least intuitive places in the game. Blighttown was a ***** to go through, but at least you pretty much always had something guiding you, whether it just be a simple direction of going down or the platforms of refuse in the lake of shit. Londo is just "fuck you"-ville with how they decided platforming on butresses when you haven't done anything nearly that small or with that kind of pressure before then.

As a first time player (still haven't actually finished the game) I found Anor Londo quite okay (except the boss, holy fuck). I felt like Sen's Fortress was adequate preparation for it, to be honest. Personally, I found the spear knights much harder than the archers because, until that point I'd been over-relying on blocking with a spear and hadn't figured out the benefits of side stepping. But that's the cool thing about dark souls, learned knowledge is important (not just in the immediate twitch skill sense, but in the "aha, now I know your attack patterns" sense).

I dunno, I just always felt Sen's you had a clear path and was laid out in a way that you knew what you were supposed to do with the exception of the boulder swap and elevator of trolly death, Londo just always felt...padded I suppose. But I will commend you on using a spear, even if it is with a shield you first-run scrub.

 

[Lykosia_v1legacy]

My biggest problem with Dark Souls combat is that one tactic seems to work against 90 % of enemies. And that's patience. I never finished the game because I got bored 15 hours in with it so keep that in mind, maybe enemies later on would change this. It never felt that difficult. You just wait for enemies to attack and block/dodge and riposte.

 

[SqueezetheFlab]

My biggest problem with Dark Souls combat is that one tactic seems to work against 90 % of enemies. And that's patience. I never finished the game because I got bored 15 hours in with it so keep that in mind, maybe enemies later on would change this. It never felt that difficult. You just wait for enemies to attack and block/dodge and riposte.

This x 1000. You're right. That is quintessentially the same tactic for every fucking enemy in the game.

I like combat where you have more than 1 way to skin the cat and get rewarded for trying things differently/innovating.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I get why people are discussing real weapon weight since someone mentioned Souls having "weight" to and a realistic "feel" to its combat, but it's not meant to be a "realistic" representation. The game world is dark fantasy, meaning who knows how much a Demon Great Machete or Tower Shield would weigh. Probably quite a bit more than the heaviest known real world broadsword or shield, which is why the game treats it that way.

The Demon Great Machete weighs 18, which is funny, as the average weight of a barn swallow (Hirundo rustica) is 18g.

I think the Demon Great Machete weighs about 1'000 swallows. That's 1,000 swallows for our metrically impaired friends.

Then again, looking at the size of the Demon Great Machete, it seems as if the events of Dark Souls take place in a galaxy far far away, where gravity is just as curious a thing as it is over here, just different.

 

[Athennesi]

It's problem is trying to combine two types of combat that don't blend well together...Far too big AND fast bosses with larger-than-the-player hitboxes and standard trash mobs, which comprise 75% of game play plus occasional thrown mini boss.
For first, they gave the player unrealistic speed at strafing ( despite how silly it looks, it is simply required,without which it would be nearly impossible to win), for second this turns combat into a cheap strafe+backstab simulator.
Second, because it tries to mix so many different weapon play styles and enemies of shapes and sizes, there is a ton of animation/weapons clipping, sounds that completely miss the mark, lack of any synchronization between enemy AI, plus I-frames and overlong animation sequences that break the experience...it simply feels like a janky mess.
Here is an example: https://youtu.be/cNlQ1W9Wrlg?t=222
Enemy shield clipping through player, Player parries, camera janks without any smooth transition, No real sound of player's shield actually striking skeleton( sounds a lot closer to a recording of a door being slammed), then player's sword passes through skeleton without actually hitting it, another just blindly jumps through player.

 

[Athennesi]

Honestly, Dark Souls combat is a bit clunky but... it's kind of part of the charm. To me, at least. It responds well how you need it to, and overall works universally. Most creatures can be parried, falling off of stuff kills enemies too, you can be backstabbed as well as the enemies. This, to me, makes it stand out so much more then other games, where not everyone plays by the same rules.

Though... I can't think of many people who praise dark souls purely from it's combat. And if you're gonna approach it and just look at the problems it has without anything else, well. I can't help you. Maybe it's not just your jam?

How is that a positive? It looks a bit silly( especially given how DS is more "grounded" than typical Japanese action game) when the same parry animation is applied to a creature of your and the one twice your size. Or blocking a massive, heavy attack of something that would realistically turn you into a pancake...no amount of "skill" would help you there, when there is a too high strength differential.
Dissonance between gameplay mechanics and it's world design ( aimed on some level toward realism) is not really a design "feature".

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Honestly, Dark Souls combat is a bit clunky but... it's kind of part of the charm. To me, at least. It responds well how you need it to, and overall works universally. Most creatures can be parried, falling off of stuff kills enemies too, you can be backstabbed as well as the enemies. This, to me, makes it stand out so much more then other games, where not everyone plays by the same rules.

Though... I can't think of many people who praise dark souls purely from it's combat. And if you're gonna approach it and just look at the problems it has without anything else, well. I can't help you. Maybe it's not just your jam?

How is that a positive? It looks a bit silly( especially given how DS is more "grounded" than typical Japanese action game) when the same parry animation is applied to a creature of your and the one twice your size. Or blocking a massive, heavy attack of something that would realistically turn you into a pancake...no amount of "skill" would help you there, when there is a too high strength differential.
Dissonance between gameplay mechanics and it's world design ( aimed on some level toward realism) is not really a design "feature".

Are you really trying to make an appeal to realism in a game where you play as an immortal zombie that's reconstituted from ash upon every 'death,' that features dragons, gods, physically harvested souls and 'humanity,' and in which you can do things like swing hammers that weigh, at the very least, 300 pounds, and wear solid stone armor.

Not exactly the best play, I have to say.

 

[Athennesi]

I get why people are discussing real weapon weight since someone mentioned Souls having "weight" to and a realistic "feel" to its combat, but it's not meant to be a "realistic" representation. The game world is dark fantasy, meaning who knows how much a Demon Great Machete or Tower Shield would weigh. Probably quite a bit more than the heaviest known real world broadsword or shield, which is why the game treats it that way.

The Demon Great Machete weighs 18, which is funny, as the average weight of a barn swallow (Hirundo rustica) is 18g.

I think the Demon Great Machete weighs about 1'000 swallows. That's 1,000 swallows for our metrically impaired friends.

Then again, looking at the size of the Demon Great Machete, it seems as if the events of Dark Souls take place in a galaxy far far away, where gravity is just as curious a thing as it is over here, just different.

I was always under the impression the units were never defined, and were applied arbitrarily given it's a fantasy-based game world.

Honestly, Dark Souls combat is a bit clunky but... it's kind of part of the charm. To me, at least. It responds well how you need it to, and overall works universally. Most creatures can be parried, falling off of stuff kills enemies too, you can be backstabbed as well as the enemies. This, to me, makes it stand out so much more then other games, where not everyone plays by the same rules.

Though... I can't think of many people who praise dark souls purely from it's combat. And if you're gonna approach it and just look at the problems it has without anything else, well. I can't help you. Maybe it's not just your jam?

How is that a positive? It looks a bit silly( especially given how DS is more "grounded" than typical Japanese action game) when the same parry animation is applied to a creature of your and the one twice your size. Or blocking a massive, heavy attack of something that would realistically turn you into a pancake...no amount of "skill" would help you there, when there is a too high strength differential.
Dissonance between gameplay mechanics and it's world design ( aimed on some level toward realism) is not really a design "feature".

Again, (dark) fantasy. There are many attacks that can't be parried, and different stats can skew things one way or the other. The game only applies a layer of realism (which is mostly physics) into a world full of wtf. It's simply a paradoxical concept which requires its own suspension of disbelief before being able to surrender to its charms.

It seems like the further this thread goes along the deeper people look for things to pick apart. If as much subjective criticism was leveled at the vast majority of other games, they'd probably fall apart much sooner given how paper-thin most of them are.

 

[Athennesi]

[/quote]
Again, (dark) fantasy. There are many attacks that can't be parried, and different stats can skew things one way or the other. The game only applies a layer of realism (which is mostly physics) into a world full of wtf. It's simply a paradoxical concept which requires its own suspension of disbelief before being able to surrender to its charms.
[/quote]

There are different kinds of "fantasy". Compare the shift between Origins and Dragon Age II...one was more consistent, cohesive and weapon animation were more reflective of their actual weight.
Another...had player teleport-charging into battle, delivering lightning fast cuts using a giant hammer size of a small house on enemies falling down from the sky and exploding like baloons upon dying. At the same time while trying to present, perhaps even more immersive and realistic setting than it's predecessor.
If this was the case with something like Final Fantasy/Kingdoms of Amalur, then it wouldn't be a problem: the art, the tone, the lore, animations, physics: all says, to hell with realism.
DS on the other hand "feels" a lot more heavy and realistic, even within confines of fantasy... from weapon animations to enemies like Iron Golem or Asylum Demon simply shaking the ground when walking. And that can make a combat feel counter-intuitive at times.

 

[Athennesi]

My biggest problem with Dark Souls combat is that one tactic seems to work against 90 % of enemies. And that's patience. I never finished the game because I got bored 15 hours in with it so keep that in mind, maybe enemies later on would change this. It never felt that difficult. You just wait for enemies to attack and block/dodge and riposte.

This x 1000. You're right. That is quintessentially the same tactic for every fucking enemy in the game.

I like combat where you have more than 1 way to skin the cat and get rewarded for trying things differently/innovating.

You can use the same tactic for every enemy in the game, right. But you don't have to.
Try going below 25% load and play a quick character. Try dual daggers or sorcer/pyro. There is more than one way to skin the cat. You'll find a way if you search for it. Just like everything in Dark Souls, really.

Right. It's true that patience is a big part of it, and how similar tactics can be used on quite a few enemies, but that doesn't mean that options don't exist. The game does leave it up to the player instead of forcing their hand into a certain tactic. There are some enemies where you can party/riposte, but it won't work as well or take nearly as much damage as others. Maybe a different weapon type/coating would take them down quicker, or perhaps they're very weak to a certain type of magic or wearing a certain ring would help more.

The combat is similar to the story, in that it often takes an active approach and sense of exploration to ripen and yield the freshest fruit. There can be several viable strategies with widely varying degrees of success vs a lot of games where one YouTube clip says it all. Another interesting twist is that some boss fights aren't even required, like the Gaping Dragon. Need the key to Blighttown but don't want to bother with that nasty? Do some exploring and maybe you'll discover you don't even need a key.