Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[SL33TBL1ND]

I could care less either way, but why censor the flash creator? Shes thrusted herself into the public eye so shes fair game to whatever people want to do or say or create about her.

It hasn't been "censored", it's just been voted to be a shit game, and due to NG's rules, it get's removed.

As said before, NG has far worse games, both in quality & content, this game was blammed because of the subject matter.

Even then, NG's rules for submission covers this sort of thing (i.e. Hateful submissions), so we can't single it out there either.

 

[BNguyen]

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

About the only thing I would have to agree on with Lara Croft is that she is adventurous and independent, but to me, in every game I've seen her in, she kind of acts like a prick. I'd have to go with Yahtzee's opinion of how she acts in games towards other archeologists. Every treasure she seems to go after she acts like she's entitled to have it just because one of her relatives found it and died trying to get it back home. So in that case, I cannot recommend her as a good example of good women. Though that is to say there aren't many games I've played that has a good woman character.

 

[LHZA]

they do not do so in Mass Effect 3 (or 2 for that matter). Their is nothing that dissaudes us from assuming running in heels isn't as cumbersome as it is in real life (I nearly broke my foot just walking in those things). I personally would also prefer that at least during battle scenes, where a character like Ashely has come prepared to fight, she not be in heels. It is a small, but in my mind effective way of not over sexualizing a character (not that a little sex isn't a good thing, but time and place people). Fighting in heels is not plausable.

It's Mass Effect. The answer is "Mass Effect Field". Her high heels are generating a mass effect field that assists with her balance so she's not actually hampered at all.

Cool. Put that down as a sci fi technology I wish existed FOR REAL! Like jet packs, laser guns and talking monkey best friends.

 

[LHZA]

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

About the only thing I would have to agree on with Lara Croft is that she is adventurous and independent, but to me, in every game I've seen her in, she kind of acts like a prick. I'd have to go with Yahtzee's opinion of how she acts in games towards other archeologists. Every treasure she seems to go after she acts like she's entitled to have it just because one of her relatives found it and died trying to get it back home. So in that case, I cannot recommend her as a good example of good women. Though that is to say there aren't many games I've played that has a good woman character.

Kay. I always thought she was doing no worse than Indiana Jones. In real life she would be a horrible archeologists, and you're right, a horrible person but very few people want to play a game in which you spend hours in the dirt gently scrubbing a vase with a tooth brush.

 

[BNguyen]

I've been reading some of your posts and there's an argument I'm surprised you haven't used, which is a lack of characterization in female video game characters is at least partially to do with a lack of great characterization period. You can point to the white short brown haired male archtype so prevalent in video games, and characters like Marcus Phenix, which I would say are more characature than character. In my opinion, however, the industry is getting better at this, and it's not like it's a problem unique to video games. That's not to say I don't think there isn't a problem inherent to the way women are protrayed in video games, and from what I can gather, so do you. You're right to say that sexual =/= sexist, and I have enjoyed you're defence of Lara Croft. People always point to her breasts and clothing when claiming she's a sexist character while obscuring the fact she's independent, adventurous, scholarly, athletic, and generally a recommendable female character who unfortunatly stars in a string of rather mediocre games. I just wish overall, there was less of an emphasis on appearence for female characters, which I beleive is more overt than with male characters. You can look like a human tank ala Marcuc Pheonnix, or kinda wirery like Nathan Drake, you can be short and fat like Mario, but with woman, you are inexplicably in heels during battle, ala Ashley Williams in Mass Effect 3. Kaidan got real armour, Ashley got that get up, and though it would have been fine to have her look like that say when she's trying to get Shepard in the sack, or hey, just walking around the Normandy, why did she have to look like that during gun fights? Any ways, there's other points I want to make, and I disagree with you opinion on woman only subway cars in Japan, and I'll be willing to debate all that later, but right now I have delicious food waiting for me, so I'm out.

About the only thing I would have to agree on with Lara Croft is that she is adventurous and independent, but to me, in every game I've seen her in, she kind of acts like a prick. I'd have to go with Yahtzee's opinion of how she acts in games towards other archeologists. Every treasure she seems to go after she acts like she's entitled to have it just because one of her relatives found it and died trying to get it back home. So in that case, I cannot recommend her as a good example of good women. Though that is to say there aren't many games I've played that has a good woman character.

Kay. I always thought she was doing no worse than Indiana Jones. In real life she would be a horrible archeologists, and you're right, a horrible person but very few people want to play a game in which you spend hours in the dirt gently scrubbing a vase with a tooth brush.

I'm not saying that the games have to be boring but to me, there has to be some reason for her to act like she does, and to date, I've seen no reason for her to act like a prick. Indiana Jones at least (from a point of view of having not seen the movies but reviews) was dragged into his situations by groups who saw him as valuable and talented at his work, Lara has no reasons as far as I've seen to act in a similar manner. She's basically Bruce Wayne minus parents being murdered. Maybe if it had been the opposing groups having gone against her after she was already there or some family member, then I could get behind her character (no pun intended).
To me, the same application goes with the new game, if the intended rape scene goes to develop her character and give her reason to act like she does then it makes her a much better character.

 

[Patathatapon]

Can't wait for the news line: "This game was financed by Sarkeesian with the money , she gained from kick-starter campaign. It appears that she did so in order to give herself a more solid position in the world of gaming".
What? You don't believe even in possibility of such thing? Here is a little secret I'll share with you: Humans are bastards and will do anything to achieve their goal.

Well look's like I was beaten to the punch. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

-

Damn it, Ryan. Stop changing your avatar. It confuses me.

OT: I don't know if I'm hyper wise or super weird, but this whole thing seems like a non-issue to me. I think the woman's a dropkick and the sooner she inevitably crashes and burns into obscurity, the better. But I didn't imagine there would be this much conversation about it all. This flavour of the month topic is stretching on painfully long. Not as long as the "video games cause violence" bullshit, but at least that fallacy was obvious to almost everyone from the start.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

The "why do women wear heels" question discussion got me giggling. We wear them because it makes us look different than when we are not wearing them in the following ways: arching our back for balance which pushes the chest out, a leaner look to the legs because of the extension of being on tip-toes, and a more prominent buttock jut (again from the back arch and needed balanced position). They make us change where we're distributing our weight to balance and that redistribution results in an exaggeration of the female form in our standing shape - also, because one foot must be placed in front of the other to maintain moving balance (like walking a tight-rope) the swaying of hips to accomplish this adds to a generally more sexy look.

They aren't something any sane person would wear into battle, or to a marathon, or during the zombie apocalypse - hell, go to a wedding reception some time and half the women on the dance floor will be in stocking feet because they've left their heels under the table and the time for wearing them and being prettier than they'd normally be has passed into a time for more active fun. Or because their feet are too sore to walk in them, let alone bloody dance.

Do games need to have that "realism"? No... but they also don't need anything to accentuate the already exaggerated female forms their female characters are sporting either, since they could 'draw' them the same as if they had heels on in the looks department and just put some boots on their feet. Everyone's happy with the illusion then I guess? /shrug.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I'm almost certain women wear heels for their own enjoyment. I don't know any men who get anything out of whether a woman is in high heels or not but I can understand the appeal, it's like walking around on miniature stilts. Kinda fun. Impractical but fun.

I'm not coming down on heels in an office setting, for a night out, etc. Ask any female soldier if she wears heels in the heat of battle or would want to and I can't imagine any would say yes because of the whole lack of mobility therefore incresed likelihood of death thing. I could easily believe Ashley Williams likes to wear heels in certain circumstances, but why the hell is she wearing them in the middle of a battle? There's no point to it other than to make the character more sexually appealing and in that particular context it's out of place and therefore gratuitous. They're nto as bad as say Miranda Lawson's, but still.

Call me weird, but a woman in heels or not is completely trivial to her sexuality. I don't see what part of male heterosexual attraction men are drawn to with a woman having miniature stilts under her heels?

It's a "style" thing, not a sex thing.

Marcus Fenix by all rights should wear a ballistic helmet considering it is the only part of his body that he sticks out of cover, but he doesn't. Then you can see his wonderfully chiselled features. That's style.

 

[Treblaine]

Let's be fair here, it's hard to see anything past Lara's breasts. They take up a lot of the viewing range

I have never played any of the Tomb Raider games. Not because I care what lara wears, but because the game itself never interested me. I only used her as an example of a well known female character that has some contraversy for her overdeveloped... character design. I was trying to use her and show that games should be judged on the context of the character, but since you keep delving into specifics with her, lets go with purely theoretical examples.

Honestly though I think we are arguing the same thing. We both want characters to reflect what makes sense for the story, setting, and mood of the game.

To some of your other points. Seducing and seeking approval are two different things. I didn't say women dressed a certain way to get laid (because let's be honest, most girls could show up to a bar in a burlap sack and find a guy pretty quick). I said their dress is tied to their worth. Being desired and complemented. And this is a societal issue caused by both genders. Same with sex. Men are suppose to boast about the number of their partners (which is typically inflated) while women are suppose to avoid sex and have fewer partners. The funny thing is that when talking about heterosexual sex the total number of partners on average have to equal for both men and women. If some guy says we slept with 100 women, then either no other guy is having sex, or there are women with higher numbers of partners then they let on. I always laugh when I see headlines of studys that show men have 50% more partners than women. Someone has to tell these people that their hand doesn't count. Anyway I digress. The point is this is all about societies views and that these views need to change, as that will change the media as well, but this kind of change is very slow.

As for attacking Ms Sarkeesian, some of your posts seemed to me at least to be attacking her character and her mental capabilities. If I have misunderstood then my apologies. I don't have the energy to dig through your posts. If you are confident then that's good. If others point out how your comments come across then maybe you should look at your writing. It is hard to convey tone in words obviously.

Some women can be only window dressing, and I can even conciede some of your points on this, but I can see I didn't explain myself well. I mean that my biggest concern is how female characters who are not the lead but still important to the story have no real personality, and usually only act as a foil for the main character to overcome. Yes the damsel in distress is an old story, but just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it right.

But that leads back to the view society has. Movies, TV, games, they all make what sells. THe least amount of work for the most amount of profit. Until we stop buying games or going to see movies where the women done make sense then nothing will change.

"Let's be fair here, it's hard to see anything past Lara's breasts. They take up a lot of the viewing range "

Now that is a sexist comment.

And Yeah, it is REALLY OBVIOUS you have never played any Tomb Raider games with your obsession over her breasts and ignoring all her characteristics.

Judging character design completely out of context is wrong as it is the CONTEXT where you see their character. The context of the cutscenes and the very fact that they are fighting lions and mercenaries and traversing lethal environments.

Let's NOT go with purely hypothetical examples as we are talking about a REAL video games industry that has actually depicted such characters...

Have you never played ANY video game with a female protagonist?

First of all: Female protagonists in games who never hitch up with any male protagonist has NOTHING to do with why men are perceived to need to have had sex with many different women and often. Nothing. Lara Croft, Claire Redfield and so on never hitch up with a guy, they are completely focused on the story, finding the treasure or escaping the zombies.

"attacking her character and her mental capabilities"

Pointing out her lack of competence on this issue is NOT saying she has a low IQ or is stupid.

Pointing out the prejudices on THIS ISSUE is not a general attack on her character. Not like saying "well this person dodged the draft for vietnam, so she can't comment on this issue".

"my biggest concern is how female characters who are not the lead but still important to the story have no real personality"

This is a product of video games where you can't afford to have 4-hours of cutscenes, you need to be straight to the point. Characterisation takes time. Sorry but the "Q" type characters (you know, the guy who gives James Bond his gadgets) there isn't time to flesh him out. This happens with ALL supporting character, not just females.

The thing is the damsel in distress is as often as not a male character, like an nerdy (male) weapons scientists, the (male) president of united states, a computer hacker, a child, or your "buddy from nam". It's not always a damsel and is very rarely so now.

 

[Treblaine]

heh...sexism and or "demeaning" depictions of women in video games are not all or nothing. Each depiction/action is judged on a case by case basis...like in the real world.

"why did snake leave Foxhound".....this is contrived... the writer contrived it...if it is well written then it will not seem "out of character". However well written or not this is still the writer making snake do something....back to the clothing issue the designer still puts the character in whatever outfit and their reasons for this action are subject to scrutiny ...how is this unclear?

Contrived... you don't seem to understand how that word is used in literary criticism. It does not mean "everything the writer writes".

con·trived/kənˈtrīvd/
Adjective:

Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously.
Giving a sense of artificiality.

I am not offering a "literary criticism". I am opposing your opinion that a character placed in an outfit in a videogame can be equated to a woman in the real world deciding what to wear....

But what if the CHARACTER would naturally do that from what is established about the character and the world which itself is not contrived to suit a purpose. Then it would not be contrived.

Yes, every story might have to start with some unavoidable contrivance such as establishing Snake's anti-authoritarian ideals, but what naturally comes from that would be him leaving Foxhound.

You ARE offering literary criticism, you are criticising works that have been written, they had a script and written story by objecting to my criticism.

Realise if you say that everything a writer has any character do is contrived because the writer wrote it, then it doesn't matter what they write, they could never be criticised for being excessively contrived.

You CAN equate decisions fictional characters make to real world logic, like a real world woman applying logic to her tastes and prejudices.

This seems to have gone off the rails somewhat...

"But what if the CHARACTER would naturally do that from what is established about the character"
...yes and how is this first established? The writer writes it. The writer makes all the decisions. Just because the writer/designer has established reasons in their "world" for whatever action does not mean those actions cannot be scrutinized....

"You ARE offering literary criticism, you are criticizing works that have been written"

Really?
literary criticism
noun
1. a written evaluation of a work of literature [syn: criticism]
2. the informed analysis and evaluation of literature

I do not see how I was doing this......

"Realize if you say that everything a writer has any character do is contrived because the writer wrote it, then it doesn't matter what they write"
That is not what I've said at all. My position is that what matters (when judging what a character is doing) is what the writer has written.

"You CAN equate decisions fictional characters make to real world logic, like a real world woman applying logic to her tastes and prejudices
If a character is written to apply any logic to what they do then I guess..yes...

All of this is an aside to the original discussion "The writer/developer/designer is responsible (accountable) for the actions their creations take and for the clothes they are placed in." Objecting to how Lara Croft is depicted (clothing or body type) =/= telling a real world woman to coverup.

Yeah, you are offering criticism.

You said everything a writer writes is contrived. You say you can always break out of the natural order in the fictional world and just start making assumptions of why the author did this rather than try to understand the fictional character's motivations.

You are DELIBERATELY trying to break the illusion which is the only way stories work. You are pointing out the strings in a puppet show.

The point is to be without prejudice, why WOULD you have a problem with a woman showing her arms and legs whether she was a fictional character or a real woman you see. Are you actually secretly seething with fury every time you see a woman not wearing a burka but force yourself to stay silent only because they chose to dress that way. This is equivalent, as why would you want Lara to cover up? Why is acceptable because she is fictional?

What is you problem with women? What is no inconceivable and objectionable about a fictional character showing her arms as legs when it's acceptable for a real person to do so.

If the writer "forced the fictional character to wear that" isn't he also guilty of slavery, he is forcing Solid Snake to fight. No. The storyteller creates characters with purpose and their own intents and he imagines what they would want and do.

You need to accept that.

For example, why did Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi, why did her aggressively strike down Darth Vader only to throw down his weapon when challenged by the Emperor? Just because Lucas said so? Lucas could have written him to do ANYTHING and it would be equally valid because he's the writer?

According to your approach, just as Lara only dresses a way or does anything because the writer has it so, So Luke had no reason for doing what he did. The writer just said "ahh, this shit is going to happen, and It isn't just going to be to look cool, there is no reason or internal logic to this".

You know what it is amazing what a double standard you can have. In the fictional world women can't dress themselves but male characters can have their own logical motivations. Stop and think about what you are saying.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It the fact that the characters aren't people makes Kite Tale's point null, then the entire issue of "sexism is games" is null. After all, they're not people so it shouldn't matter how positively or negatively they are portrayed.

Don't get mad at me. It's your logic that is saying this.

/facepalm

The point (that went flying over your head at the speed of light) is that women in videogames aren't making their own choices. The devs are. So saying that it's okay that Ivy wears what she does because she chooses too is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Sexism in video games has no effect on the non existent female characters but it does have an effect on REAL PEOPLE ie. Female gamers.

Imagine a world wear the majority of guys in games looked and acted like male strippers. Would you be comfortable with that? (I'm assuming you are straight of course)

 

[Neonit]

I could care less either way, but why censor the flash creator? Shes thrusted herself into the public eye so shes fair game to whatever people want to do or say or create about her.

It hasn't been "censored", it's just been voted to be a shit game, and due to NG's rules, it get's removed.

As said before, NG has far worse games, both in quality & content, this game was blammed because of the subject matter.

Even then, NG's rules for submission covers this sort of thing (i.e. Hateful submissions), so we can't single it out there either.

And yet, right now on Newgrounds, you can play a game called "Election Madness" where you "Beat your political opponent to pieces by using kicks, punches, combos, TV's, pianos, and more! Choose between Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain in this hilarious knockout!"

yeah, i have to say, i dont see a difference. it is, pretty much - politics. i dont see nobody complain about the political beat ups, because, you know, they are common. and we are used to them.

thing is, i agree that it is stupid, and in no way helps create the idea that gamers "have grown up" but wth should we grow up, when society stayed the same? how is it any different from "political beat ups"?

you have became a "well" known person, get used to this shit because EVERY celebrity had to go through this.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I don't mind Lara's outfit at all. Just stop her posing like she's in playboy in every picture.

Oh and the fact that female characters never hook up? It's because the devs want guys to feel like they belong to them...I actually heard that in an interview back in the 90's.

Ivy's outfit is ridiculously inappropriate for being in a fighting tournie. It would fall off in the first 5 minutes of the fight. That's why I have a problem with it no self respecting female fighter would ever wear that. She's only dressed in that to be a sex object.

Funny Story that might not relate to anything: I was playing the secret world and my character wears a hoodie and jeggings and a long top underneath the hoodie and sneakers. (Pretty much my everyday clothes irl)

Saw a female character with just a bra top, little shorts and platform shoes walk by. That was literally all she was wearing.

First stop New England fishing village in autumn. Man did I feel bad for that girl

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

[Oh and the fact that female characters never hook up? It's because the devs want guys to feel like they belong to them...I actually heard that in an interview back in the 90's.

And we all know nothing has changed in the last 20 years. of course, if female characters DO hook up, then it's just pandering to fans of lesbians. So it's not like you can win.

Ivy's outfit is ridiculously inappropriate for being in a fighting tournie. It would fall off in the first 5 minutes of the fight. That's why I have a problem with it no self respecting female fighter would ever wear that. She's only dressed in that to be a sex object.

Her and Voldo.

Wait what? Lesbians? I meant with a male character. Yeah it is sad that nothing has changed in the last 20 years isn't it.

Funny thing. They made a poster with Voldo's crotch on it and a sexy message ins response to the complaints about the Ivy one. All the male fans complained and it was withdrawn in a about a day.

Double standards ahoy.