Flat Earth Birth Control

Thaluikhain

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Burnouts3s3 said:
But, it comes down to, what I believe, personal responsibility. Yes, there are many, many exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, the parties in question should practice safe sex in order to avoid these types of situations. Yes, lots of individuals find it difficult to afford birth control methods, but maybe it brings up another question whether relationships should be based solely or heavily on sex. True love should go beyond sex and just spending time with one another should just be pleasant all by itself.
Only, we know this is not going to happen.

Various powerful groups have demanded that this be the approach that is tried, so it's been tried for many, many years, and it consistently has been a terrible failure.

DirgeNovak said:
Yep. And this isn't about religious freedom. It's about saving money. Period.
Heh, that pic again. I think it's gone beyond that, people are leaning towards "potential fetus" having rights that trump womens'.
 

DirgeNovak

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Westaway said:
DirgeNovak said:
Westaway said:
DirgeNovak said:
It's called health insurance, ever heard of it?
Yeah, I'm from Canada, it's sort of a big thing up here. I don't understand how having sex and getting pregnant is the same thing as getting into an accident and breaking your leg.
Plans cover birth control in Canada too, like any other prescriptions.
But what I'm asking is why. Why do plans cover birth control?
Why shouldn't they? It's prescription medicine.
 

Westaway

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Westaway said:
DirgeNovak said:
It's called health insurance, ever heard of it?
Yeah, I'm from Canada, it's sort of a big thing up here. I don't understand how having sex and getting pregnant is the same thing as getting into an accident and breaking your leg.
It isn't. But neither is getting the sniffles. So what?

They're all issues pertaining to health.

Why do they cover pain killers? You can get them in stores.
Because some people have chronic pain. Having sex carries risks, babies being the largest these days. If you're having sex, you need to realize you might have a baby because of it. It's like saying you love taking out the ol' Kalashnikov and shooting the ground between your legs. If there's an accident, it's purely your fault.
 

Eamar

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Westaway said:
Yeah, I'm from Canada, it's sort of a big thing up here. I don't understand how having sex and getting pregnant is the same thing as getting into an accident and breaking your leg.
Not all birth control = abortifacient. The copper coil and IUD, which this company is against for whatever reason, are pretty much the most effective contraceptives you can get (alongside the contraceptive implant) and they're something you have implanted for several years at a time, not as a one-off "morning after" type thing.
 

Vrach

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So, wait, you guys can write condoms off as a medical expense? If you have a job, the company buys you condoms, birth control pills etc.?
 

Something Amyss

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thaluikhain said:
Heh, that pic again. I think it's gone beyond that, people are leaning towards "potential fetus" having rights that trump womens'.
Well, as it pertains to this case, it's accurate.

Going outside the case, and even somewhat outside your statement, I find it vaguely disturbing that the pro-life movement as a whole is almost exclusively punitive. They want to criminalise abortion, investigate miscarriages and accidents as murder, reduce access to birth control, etc.

But more to my point, there's very little support for the fetus or the woman who would be by law the incubator. Opposition to funding not only for school lunches and child assistance, but also for prenatal care, and resistance to care for the mother around childbirth. I think I've mentioned it recently, but when Clinton signed a bill saying hospitals couldn't kick a woman out for 48-72 hours after childbirth, the "pro life" movement was outraged! How dare someone want to provide medical treatment to a woman who's just pushed a baby out of her vagina?

They're not just punitive to women, but to children and fetuses. Pretty much all the above programs are shot down by "your parents should have been more responsible." Even weirder when there's a rising chorus of people who think abortion shouldn't be legal even for instances of rape or incest because "why should the child pay for the actions of the parents?"

Which is a viable argument to defend rapists, but not poor people. Because really, that's all we do to children otherwise. "Why should we feed you when your parents were irresponsible?" or "we're sorry you don't have clothes, but your mommy should have kept her legs shut."

Pro life, indeed.
 

Something Amyss

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Westaway said:
Because some people have chronic pain.
So what? Buy pain relief OTC. Same argument you're making.

Having sex carries risks, babies being the largest these days.
Honey, most things carry risk. Many of the pain sufferers engaged in risky behaviour. Why are you for covering it? Hell, your original broken leg example is quite possibly the result of risky behaviour. Why is it "fuck you" when one person undertakes risk and not another?
 

Thaluikhain

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Well, as it pertains to this case, it's accurate.

Going outside the case, and even somewhat outside your statement, I find it vaguely disturbing that the pro-life movement as a whole is almost exclusively punitive. They want to criminalise abortion, investigate miscarriages and accidents as murder, reduce access to birth control, etc.

But more to my point, there's very little support for the fetus or the woman who would be by law the incubator. Opposition to funding not only for school lunches and child assistance, but also for prenatal care, and resistance to care for the mother around childbirth. I think I've mentioned it recently, but when Clinton signed a bill saying hospitals couldn't kick a woman out for 48-72 hours after childbirth, the "pro life" movement was outraged! How dare someone want to provide medical treatment to a woman who's just pushed a baby out of her vagina?

They're not just punitive to women, but to children and fetuses. Pretty much all the above programs are shot down by "your parents should have been more responsible." Even weirder when there's a rising chorus of people who think abortion shouldn't be legal even for instances of rape or incest because "why should the child pay for the actions of the parents?"

Which is a viable argument to defend rapists, but not poor people. Because really, that's all we do to children otherwise. "Why should we feed you when your parents were irresponsible?" or "we're sorry you don't have clothes, but your mommy should have kept her legs shut."

Pro life, indeed.
Oh, certainly, that's very much an issue.

I'd also add that they don't seem keen, as a rule, to provide decent contraception of sex education to stop people getting pregnant in the first place. One wonders how many would be happier if the problem was actually solved.
 

Eamar

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Burnouts3s3 said:
Out of curiosity, how much do the types of contraceptives not covered by Hobby Lobby cost?
I'm British, so obviously I'm not an expert, but apparently an IUD (which is described as the most "inexpensive" form of long-term contraception) plus all the necessary appointments, the procedure to have it fitted etc can range between $500-$900 without insurance. Now, that lasts for several years (unless you have major side effects, which aren't uncommon, and need it removed or supplemented with other drugs, all of which would cost more), but that's a lot of money for someone to find, especially one that can't afford insurance.
 

Something Amyss

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thaluikhain said:
Oh, certainly, that's very much an issue.

I'd also add that they don't seem keen, as a rule, to provide decent contraception of sex education to stop people getting pregnant in the first place. One wonders how many would be happier if the problem was actually solved.
Considering how lambasted Hillary Clinton got for saying the best way to combat abortions was just that, I'd imagine the number of people who want a solution are small.

This is also why it's really hard for me to believe it when they say they have moral concerns or the interest of the baby at heart.

Additionally, Earmar just pointed out, the birth control they object to isn't all abortifacents, which further makes this issue not about abortion but contraception.
 

Something Amyss

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Eamar said:
I'm British, so obviously I'm not an expert, but apparently an IUD (which is described as the most "inexpensive" form of long-term contraception) plus all the necessary appointments, the procedure to have it fitted etc can range between $500-$900 without insurance. Now, that lasts for several years (unless you have major side effects, which aren't uncommon, and need it removed or supplemented with other drugs, all of which would cost more), but that's a lot of money for someone to find, especially one that can't afford insurance.
Especially for someone working at a place like Hobby Lobby.
 

RA92

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To anyone who thinks birth control only pertains to sex and asking why it's covered in medical insurance, hormonal birth control is used to treat many medical conditions and the contraceptive purpose is just ancillary to a woman's primary use of it. It can reduce a woman's risk of ovarian cancer, it can alleviate painful periods, it treats PCOS, and myriad conditions you can find here.

Also, some women can conceive but have a history of miscarriages and rather than undergo invasive hysterectomies choose to take a monthly pill to avoid the physical and mental trauma of pregnancy.
 

Westaway

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Westaway said:
Because some people have chronic pain.
So what? Buy pain relief OTC. Same argument you're making.

Having sex carries risks, babies being the largest these days.
Honey, most things carry risk. Many of the pain sufferers engaged in risky behaviour. Why are you for covering it? Hell, your original broken leg example is quite possibly the result of risky behaviour. Why is it "fuck you" when one person undertakes risk and not another?
Honey, because there is a very clear distinction between actual accidents or actual illnesses and being risky mother fucker. I agree, if you broke the leg in an attempt to jump over three school buses on a BMX then you shouldn't be covered either.
 

renegade7

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wetfart said:
Hobby Lobby covers the following forms of contraception:
Male condoms
Female condoms
Diaphragms with spermicide
Sponges with spermicide
Cervical caps with spermicide
Spermicide alone
Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin (?Combined Pill)
Birth-control pills with progestin alone (?The Mini Pill)
Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
Contraceptive patches
Contraceptive rings
Progestin injections
Implantable rods
Vasectomies
Female sterilization surgeries
Female sterilization implants

The forms of contraception that were opposed were:
Plan B (morning after pill)
Ella (another emergency contraceptive)
Copper Intrauterine Device
IUD with progestin

The reason they were opposed was because these forms of birth control can cause or are akin to abortion.
Unlike Pfizer and Teva Pharmaceuticals, the companies Hobby Lobby invested $73 million in, which directly cause abortions.
 

Something Amyss

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Westaway said:
Honey, because there is a very clear distinction between actual accidents or actual illnesses and being risky mother fucker.
Not in the real world, honestly.

But again, why did you argue pain pills should be prescribed?
 

Westaway

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Westaway said:
Honey, because there is a very clear distinction between actual accidents or actual illnesses and being risky mother fucker.
Not in the real world, honestly.

But again, why did you argue pain pills should be prescribed?
I didn't really. The first post I made was expressing surprise and asking WHY they were payed for by employers. Now I know it's for no reason in particular.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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Westaway said:
DirgeNovak said:
It's called health insurance, ever heard of it?
Yeah, I'm from Canada, it's sort of a big thing up here. I don't understand how having sex and getting pregnant is the same thing as getting into an accident and breaking your leg.
You do know that birth control is used to help manage various health problems that aren't strictly sex-related, right?
 

Something Amyss

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RA92 said:
Hormonal birth control is used to treat many medical conditions and the contraceptive purpose is just ancillary to a woman's primary use of it. It can reduce a woman's risk of ovarian cancer, it can alleviate painful periods, it treats PCOS, and myriad conditions you can find here.

Also, some women can conceive but have a history of miscarriages and rather than undergo invasive hysterectomies choose to take a monthly pill to avoid the physical and mental trauma of pregnancy.
The issues here are with emergency contraceptive and two IUD style methods, not hormonal birth control in general.

It's not that I think Hobby Lobby is in the right here. It's just that this is kind of not relevant to the case at the moment.
 

Something Amyss

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Westaway said:
I didn't really.
Except when you used people having chronic pain as a reason to cover pain meds.

I also find it weird that the reason for not covering preventative measures is the risk you're trying to prevent. Tell me, do you oppose seat belts