Florida Bill Passes House, Allows Genital Inspection for Schools

happyninja42

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HRT stands for Hormone Replacement Therapy, and generally involves introducing hormones rather than just blocking. It'd be a subtype of hormone therapies.
Yes I am aware of what the R stands for, my point was that simply preventing one type of hormone from flooding a system, can have significant effects in itself for the patient. And that it still might be considered HRT when you are talking about legality and medical terminology. And seeing as puberty, is a LOT of different types of hormones, not just a single one, blocking it, would allow the others more actual impact on the biology. Yes, replacing it with an equivalent amount of the opposite hormone would be ideal, but the human body produces all of them (estrogen and testosterone, in every human) to varying degrees. So stopping one from acting like a tsunami through your system, thus allowing the others more....I guess room to move if you will, would still help.

That was really my only point, in response to the other poster.
 
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BrawlMan

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I really wish that I was exaggerating with the thread title, but I'm not. If this bill gets signed into law, schools in Florida will be able to ban transgender female students from participating in sports. How will they determine who is or isn't transgender? Well, that's simple. If a female student's gender is disputed, time to drop your pants/shorts/skirt and show off what you're packing!

OK, that is a bit of an exaggeration, I'll admit. To quote from the article: " The bill, which is modeled after an Idaho law that was temporarily struck down by a federal judge last year, allows a school or competitor to lodge a complaint about an athlete competing in a girls’ or woman’s sport. If the party complaining suspects the athlete was not assigned the female gender at birth, the athlete in question will have to prove their birth gender — via a genetic test, a test of their testosterone levels or an examination of their reproductive anatomy by a medical professional — in order to compete."

This is called the "Fairness in Women's Sports Act", and male sports will not be affected (funny, that). Supposedly, it's to make sure female sports players are all on even ground, and not being crushed by that one guy pretending to a be a woman.
Whoever started this bill can get kicked in the dick or vagina. With a steel toed boot wrapped in barbed wire.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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There are recreational sports at all ages that are entirely co-ed. The only controversy is specifically women's competitive sports, a designation that exists specifically to allow athletically talented women to not be overshadowed by often less-talented men who were born with a physical advantage. Letting people with that in-born advantage, regardless of gender, participate in specifically competitive women's and girls' sports defeats the purpose.
High schools are not sports training camps, kids on blockers do not have an "in-born advantage", and maybe one trans kid a year playing a sport in a high school isn't going to "overshadow" girl's sports. Literally zero high school boys are going to pretend to be transgender just to be good at girls sports and if you think otherwise you need to get your head checked for a concussion.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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But a lot of people do take it seriously.
And that is not really a bad thing because all this attention does help motivate children to actually do sports.

As for how relevant that later is, does not have the US a lot of sports based college stipendium stuff going on ? Do not most athletic careers start during puperty ? I mean, when I was young, we had regular tests for everyone and any promising children got taken from normal schools to special internats for special training under supervision from sport scientists from the age of 9 to produce athletes showing the superiority of communism.
Haha, no, our school system isn't nearly that organized. Colleges will occasionally send recruiters out to watch some high school events but having a school actually provide material support to kids outside of "we will pay for some/all of your university-specific bills if you choose to got to our university" is specifically prohibited.

Players in university have gotten in trouble for accepting a steak dinner paid for by private citizens with no school connections because Student Athletes aren't allowed to personally profit off of sports in the name of Amateurism.
 

Thaluikhain

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Literally zero high school boys are going to pretend to be transgender just to be good at girls sports and if you think otherwise you need to get your head checked for a concussion.
You're likely to get a fair few claiming they are pretending to be transgender and claiming that's the motive, though.
 

tstorm823

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High schools are not sports training camps, kids on blockers do not have an "in-born advantage", and maybe one trans kid a year playing a sport in a high school isn't going to "overshadow" girl's sports. Literally zero high school boys are going to pretend to be transgender just to be good at girls sports and if you think otherwise you need to get your head checked for a concussion.
Well now you're just double wrong.
a) Yes, there's an advantage. The increasing number of women's sports having records set by trans women in evidence enough.
b) If the blockers do put a trans-girl in the typical testosterone range for a girl of her age, and a doctor signs a note as such, that qualifies in this bill.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Well now you're just double wrong.
a) Yes, there's an advantage. The increasing number of women's sports having records set by trans women in evidence enough.
b) If the blockers do put a trans-girl in the typical testosterone range for a girl of her age, and a doctor signs a note as such, that qualifies in this bill.
Going from 0 to 3 isn't a cause for alarm, it's just what happens when people are allowed to participate. And again: it's high school. Nobody gives a shit unless you *had* the record, and then it's merely a neat factoid that has nothing to do with anything later in life.

Shit, I don't brag that my middle school football team won state. Who gives a shit?
 

happyninja42

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You're likely to get a fair few claiming they are pretending to be transgender and claiming that's the motive, though.
....so, you honestly think that a group of non-trans dudes, are going to decide to pretend to be trans, and suffer all the other stigma, discrimination, abuse, ostracization from friends and family, AND potential loss of basic human rights and services......just to get a chance at a spot on the female high school volleyball team or similar?

That's just insane.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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....so, you honestly think that a group of non-trans dudes, are going to decide to pretend to be trans, and suffer all the other stigma, discrimination, abuse, ostracization from friends and family, AND potential loss of basic human rights and services......just to get a chance at a spot on the female high school volleyball team or similar?

That's just insane.
I think the idea was that some trans girls would rather pretend to be dudes taking advantage of the system that risk actually coming out of the closet.

And if they have the kind of parents that would go along with their supposed son taking advantage like that, I wouldn't blame them
 

Agema

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....so, you honestly think that a group of non-trans dudes, are going to decide to pretend to be trans, and suffer all the other stigma, discrimination, abuse, ostracization from friends and family, AND potential loss of basic human rights and services......just to get a chance at a spot on the female high school volleyball team or similar?

That's just insane.
You're right. It would be insane to do that just for a shot of sports glory. Unfortunately, some people are insane.

It will be so rare that it's not worth this sort of invasive and stigmatising law that seems mostly designed to humiliate. But in the vast panoply of human nature and extreme psychology, I will bet you someone will eventually have such a huge fixation on winning at sports that they'd change gender to achieve it.
 

Satinavian

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Don't think it that likely for school sports. But if it were an option for more professional sports, well, we already know how many people are willing to ruin their body and health via doping just for some slightly better chance at winning. There is little reason to doubt those same people would do other questionable and quite insane things to do so.
 

Buyetyen

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"Juwanna Mann" was not a documentary. It was a shitty comedy from almost twenty years ago. Those of you who need to be reminded of this should be ashamed.
 
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happyninja42

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You're right. It would be insane to do that just for a shot of sports glory. Unfortunately, some people are insane.

It will be so rare that it's not worth this sort of invasive and stigmatising law that seems mostly designed to humiliate. But in the vast panoply of human nature and extreme psychology, I will bet you someone will eventually have such a huge fixation on winning at sports that they'd change gender to achieve it.
I mean the entire argument against trans students is basically the trans version of the plot of Soul Man.

 

tstorm823

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It will be so rare that it's not worth this sort of invasive and stigmatising law that seems mostly designed to humiliate.
Reminder #1,000,000: nobody is inspecting genitals as a result of this law. It just asks your doctor based on your physical if you qualify.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Don't think it that likely for school sports. But if it were an option for more professional sports, well, we already know how many people are willing to ruin their body and health via doping just for some slightly better chance at winning. There is little reason to doubt those same people would do other questionable and quite insane things to do so.
Yeah, but then they'd be competing for the fame and glory involved in *women's sports*

I mean, I love women's sports, but even a bad team in the NBA gets more respect than the entirety of the WNBA. That's probably why that's *never happened* in the WNBA, despite them allowing trans players for years now.

The difference in pay and airtime between the US men's and women's soccar teams is why I don't buy the argument that mediocre men are gonna pretend to be trans women to be top dog at women's sport.
 
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Agema

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I mean the entire argument against trans students is basically the trans version of the plot of Soul Man.
I agree. This is really a law about making a hostile environment for trans people for the glee of prejudicial voters who find trans people disgusting. They can't ban trans people from existing or having rights, so this is as close as they can get to have their revenge.

The relevant sports bodies should be able to deal with this. The Florida legislature of course don't think the sports bodies will be sufficiently punitive, so they're stepping into make sure someone is.
 

Terminal Blue

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That is known. That is also why you typically do sex segregation only from 14-15 onward or start even later. There is no reason to do so until boys and girls on average give significantly different result.
If girls at 12-13 are, on average, bigger and stronger than boys due to earlier puberty, then why is it fair for them to compete with boys? Is that not terribly unfair on the boys?

As easy as it is to retroactively concoct reasons why children's sports are segregated, in reality it has very little, if anything to do with physical ability, at least not until the kids are basically adults. Most of the time, boys and girls will be encouraged to play completely different sports because of weird ideas about the relative manliness or otherwise of particular kinds of sport. Other times, they are segregated because of the fear that they might accidentally touch each other and develop unchristian thoughts.

And ultimately, that's the motivation here too. That's why you have this law that is not worded to be based on any kind of judgement or disctintion that would actually make sense. Like, I know we didn't touch on puberty blockers but let's do it now, an AMAB transwoman on puberty blockers is, on average, going to be smaller and weaker than a cis woman of the same age because puberty blockers (prepare to have your mind blown) suppress the symptoms of puberty. Do you believe that the mere act of possessing a dick will give her a physical advantage over cis women despite being quantifiably less physically developed than them?

It does not actually matter what your assigned sex was at birth, the only thing that could arguably matter is what is going on in your body in the present. The assholes could have written a law based on that (and it would have been a hilarious mess) but they didn't, because they don't actually care. That's not the point.

But no, you have girl teams and girl competitions precisely because you don't want girls to lose any interest in the sport because they now they could never compete with the boys anyway.
Isn't that what happens anyway?

Your entire argument for segregation is that girls could never compete with the boys (ironically at the one point in their lives when they actually could). In a world where men's sports receives overwhelmingly better funding, better representation and better societal interest, is it really surprising that girls lose interest in sports? Segregated competitions are essentially confining girls to a secondary role in athletics where their achievements will be continuously overlooked and devalued relative to those of boys.

b) If the blockers do put a trans-girl in the typical testosterone range for a girl of her age, and a doctor signs a note as such, that qualifies in this bill.
a) The bill specifically states that an athlete must prove they were assigned female at birth.
b) The "typical testosterone range" for a healthy teenage girl can be higher than that of many boys of the same age. Again, the bodies of adolescents are different from those of adults.
c) A significant number of women, for various reasons will not fall into the "typical testosterone range". There are very common medical conditions which can affect the hormone balance in the body of a woman or girl who was nonetheless assigned female at birth.

Again, this is just more evidence that the bill was written and supported by people who either lacked even the most basic, 5 seconds on wikipedia understanding of endocrinology, or more likely just didn't care, because it seems to be written on the assumption that you can determine someone's assigned sex at birth from a single hormone test, and (particularly with children) you can't.
 
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Thaluikhain

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....so, you honestly think that a group of non-trans dudes, are going to decide to pretend to be trans, and suffer all the other stigma, discrimination, abuse, ostracization from friends and family, AND potential loss of basic human rights and services......just to get a chance at a spot on the female high school volleyball team or similar?

That's just insane.
No, I think that a number of cis males are going to declare they are trans (at least briefly) and that they are doing so to compete in female sports because they are terrible people and want to make things difficult for trans people. The sort that would claim their gender is attack helicopter and think it's hilarious.
 

Satinavian

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If girls at 12-13 are, on average, bigger and stronger than boys due to earlier puberty, then why is it fair for them to compete with boys? Is that not terribly unfair on the boys?
It is not by much and it is only for a short span. That is why it gets tolerated. But yes, one could argue to to a similar thing here.
As easy as it is to retroactively concoct reasons why children's sports are segregated, in reality it has very little, if anything to do with physical ability, at least not until the kids are basically adults. Most of the time, boys and girls will be encouraged to play completely different sports because of weird ideas about the relative manliness or otherwise of particular kinds of sport. Other times, they are segregated because of the fear that they might accidentally touch each other and develop unchristian thoughts.
If boys and girls are encouraged to do different sports than that is an American thing. Here there are no noticable differences for sports as hobby and in school children have to do the same sports anyway. The idea of manly or womenly sports is ridiculous. That is also why i don't have any understanding for the need to choose a sport to express a gender.

As for how puberty blocker change that, isn't the effectiveness pretty pretty much depending on the individual like most of the other methods to mess with growth as well ? And also depending on when you start ? If they would consistently make transgirls weaker than cisgirls that would indeed remove the need for that kind of regulation.

Isn't that what happens anyway?

Your entire argument for segregation is that girls could never compete with the boys (ironically at the one point in their lives when they actually could). In a world where men's sports receives overwhelmingly better funding, better representation and better societal interest, is it really surprising that girls lose interest in sports? Segregated competitions are essentially confining girls to a secondary role in athletics where their achievements will be continuously overlooked and devalued relative to those of boys.
What is better, having a perspective to win even if it gets less attention than the other competition or having no perspective. Atm there is little preventing female athletes to enter male competitions. But it rarely happens and when it does, they don't win. So without segregation, you would change little media interest to none at all.
All the sports where women can compete reasonably don't have sex segregation anyway.

Also it is not true thet women sports don't get much interest. While that is true for team sports like soccer where most of the money sits, for many other sports women competitions can get as much attention as mens. Every Olympics, screentime, commentary and even ads seem more dependend on which country has the favourites and less about their sex. And there are lots of sports where people are far more likely to know their national female athletes than their male ones.
 
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Agema

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Reminder #1,000,000: nobody is inspecting genitals as a result of this law. It just asks your doctor based on your physical if you qualify.
I think you need to consider that there are other ways of being invasive and shaming than demanding someone has their genitals examined.