For Want Of A Horse, The Game Was Lost
- Thread starter Rachel Verkade
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Well, she had a pretty cool theme song [http://coryjohnson.bandcamp.com/track/eponas-interlude-2].gigastrike said:
I haven't played any of the more recent Zelda games, but Epona was treated fairly respectfully as a character in OOT, insofar as much as dynamic animal behaviour programming would allow at the time of its development, so I'm willing to give her a pass.
But yeah, Agro all the way!
This kind of attention to detail reminds me of an article I read recently on the mechanics of archers in movies. The guy was an instructor and spent time pointing out how certain movies (Avengers) get it wrong and others (Brave, Hunger Games) get it right.
And that kind of attention to detail matters. Time and time again, I see instances where when people need to get it right, the do so and it shows in the entire experience. Not that Avengers was a bad film--but archery wasn't a focus.
If horses are critical to your game, then you'd best do the horses right.
And that kind of attention to detail matters. Time and time again, I see instances where when people need to get it right, the do so and it shows in the entire experience. Not that Avengers was a bad film--but archery wasn't a focus.
If horses are critical to your game, then you'd best do the horses right.
AGROOOO!
Seriously, Agro was awesome. My favorite bit was the super-pointless trick riding you could do, which only existed to cement the relationship between the horse and rider.
Seriously, Agro was awesome. My favorite bit was the super-pointless trick riding you could do, which only existed to cement the relationship between the horse and rider.
Ooh, where was this article, I'd love to read it. Loved archery since I was a kidSmokescreen said:
I am pleased to help: http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/02/new-brave-trailer-gets-it-right/8-Bit_Jack said:
I once read somewhere that the Team Ico members responsible for Agro took a few riding lessons beforehand to understand it better. I say it really payed off.
I have nothing to comment on about the article, but the bit about games where one horse may spook easily and another won't got me to thinking: Are there any games where your mount, of whatever species, can gain XP and level up along with you? Like maybe it starts out kinda useless but over time you can put points into it being less timid, having more endurance, that sort of thing.
It's not being generous at all. That's how I pronounced it in my head when reading it, and how I've always pronounced it. "Snes" is an incredibly awkward thing to try to pronounce, and I'd never even considered pronouncing it that way until your earlier comment.Fasckira said:Thats being pretty generous. If I ever heard anyone ever refer to it like that though I'd cringe even more than if you asked me to ride a horse in a game.Azuaron said:
Good article about the way expertise can make us lose immersion. I've been learning to ride for the last year, and the more I know about horses, the more I notice that most videogames (if they have a mount at all) use the "Automaton Horse" trope. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AutomatonHorses
Videogames aren't the only ones who do this, of course. How many times have you seen a movie with a non-rider character spot a likely looking beast, leap onto it and tear off at full gallop? Bonus points if he does it bareback.
So, yeah, videogames aren't realistic, and we don't flinch at the tireless Skyrim horses anymore than we flinch at the unrealistic swordsmanship. BUT. Taking the combat as an example, we do want it to be fun and engaging. Having a no personality horse that just functions as a car (at best) misses a lot of possibilities, especially when horses were such a huge part of medieval combat and legends, especially for knights. And the more realistic the basic gaits and other movement, the more likely we'll believe it when our beastie does more fantastic things.
Videogames aren't the only ones who do this, of course. How many times have you seen a movie with a non-rider character spot a likely looking beast, leap onto it and tear off at full gallop? Bonus points if he does it bareback.
So, yeah, videogames aren't realistic, and we don't flinch at the tireless Skyrim horses anymore than we flinch at the unrealistic swordsmanship. BUT. Taking the combat as an example, we do want it to be fun and engaging. Having a no personality horse that just functions as a car (at best) misses a lot of possibilities, especially when horses were such a huge part of medieval combat and legends, especially for knights. And the more realistic the basic gaits and other movement, the more likely we'll believe it when our beastie does more fantastic things.
I'll tell you what bothers me more than anything: When actors are playing instruments or conducting ensembles, and they're not even remotely doing it right. Seriously, give me 10 minutes with these people, and I'll give you a pro-quality "faker" that's fit for the big screen. It's not that hard.Smokescreen said:
Horses could, and should, be implemented in games like dogs have been in the best scenarios.
Dogmeat in Fallout 3, and the freely-named Mabari in Dragon Age: Origins. I cared for those creatures more than other characters. Although I'm a dog person, and as it tends to stand for many people; the death of a dog, or another animal for that matter, in a movie for example, can be a lot sadder, than the death of a human character.
But still, horses could very well be utilized. And they are practical in the way of transportation, as dogs tend to help you with the fighting, in video games.
In Red Dead Redemption, for the little I played it, I didn't care for the character's horse at all. It was just a tool. The same thing, with even lengthier extent, is true with Skyrim. They weren't even good tools there.
I've ridden horses as a kid and a teenager. My sister owned half of a horse for a good while and another one was often on a field just a stone's throw from my home when I was a young kid. I've carried water for a horse for a couple of Finnish winters. Even still, I've basically never had any kind of connection with horses.
I think the affection for horses is largely different with women and men. I used to work for a couple of summers with two 50-something men. They were kinda rugged, but one time they began talking on horses they, or their families had when they were young, and horses were still used for actual work and they were like family members. They almost got emotional talking about them. How strong, useful they were and what characteristics they had. Whereas all the female relatives, friends and girlfriends I've known, seem to have a very different aspect when it comes to horses.
So, video games still being somewhat dominated by males, and the ones developing them are subjectively young, from urban backgrounds, and designing the games for male audiences... It's not that difficult to see why horses aren't what they really are in video games. There should be a change though.
Dogmeat in Fallout 3, and the freely-named Mabari in Dragon Age: Origins. I cared for those creatures more than other characters. Although I'm a dog person, and as it tends to stand for many people; the death of a dog, or another animal for that matter, in a movie for example, can be a lot sadder, than the death of a human character.
But still, horses could very well be utilized. And they are practical in the way of transportation, as dogs tend to help you with the fighting, in video games.
In Red Dead Redemption, for the little I played it, I didn't care for the character's horse at all. It was just a tool. The same thing, with even lengthier extent, is true with Skyrim. They weren't even good tools there.
I've ridden horses as a kid and a teenager. My sister owned half of a horse for a good while and another one was often on a field just a stone's throw from my home when I was a young kid. I've carried water for a horse for a couple of Finnish winters. Even still, I've basically never had any kind of connection with horses.
I think the affection for horses is largely different with women and men. I used to work for a couple of summers with two 50-something men. They were kinda rugged, but one time they began talking on horses they, or their families had when they were young, and horses were still used for actual work and they were like family members. They almost got emotional talking about them. How strong, useful they were and what characteristics they had. Whereas all the female relatives, friends and girlfriends I've known, seem to have a very different aspect when it comes to horses.
So, video games still being somewhat dominated by males, and the ones developing them are subjectively young, from urban backgrounds, and designing the games for male audiences... It's not that difficult to see why horses aren't what they really are in video games. There should be a change though.
I used to ride horses too, and I also tend to mutter about how mechanical some horses are in gaming. More than other animals, horses have very subtle, almost sophisticated body language. Never played any Elder Scrolls games or RDR, but I have played Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, and SOTC. Seen many articles that compare Epona to Agro, often they end with Epona "winning" mostly from a control standpoint. Perhaps Epona does control better, but Agro is just so unique and alive. Epona handles like a robot. She spins around on an axis, moves stiffly, doesn't react to anything, she to me feels like a dead-eyed NPC or a car. Epona was one of the things I got really excited for back as a kid in the 90s, and although she was still neat to have around (and had a dash more personality than most disposable horses), Agro stole my heart. He was more than transportation. He was your companion and partner into battle. He had feelings like fear, grief, anger (have you ever plowed Agro through lizards or doves? It's not anger exactly, but it's still hilarious to see everything that touches him drop dead lol), excitement, as well as a genuine connection to Wander. All told through actions and body language. 3 of those colossi would be impossible without Agro, while Epona (OOT) I don't believe to be necessary unless you're going for 100% or want the side-plot.
And I will end in saying I've never ever had problems with Agro's controls :3. None that I didn't have already with other horses at least.
And I will end in saying I've never ever had problems with Agro's controls :3. None that I didn't have already with other horses at least.
This has definitely put a lot of things in perspective for me as a player. I usually never bothered too much with the aspect of NPCs and player interaction with more than just the story and the world, it really started to become more of an issue for me when I began playing the "Mass Effect" series. That was the first time (whether by my perception or the game causing me notice) that I felt the desire to spend even more time communicating with the NPCs around me than actually "playing the game" Honestly I spent more time in loading screens going between the Normandy's decks than going between action sequences.
Anyways, I digress.
All in all, I am grateful for your honesty and this article for being able to bring what most would see as a base game mechanic into the light of a potential point of characterization and interaction as a player that many would overlook.
Anyways, I digress.
All in all, I am grateful for your honesty and this article for being able to bring what most would see as a base game mechanic into the light of a potential point of characterization and interaction as a player that many would overlook.
I've heard of people saying Agro is female for a while now, but I NEVER see any sources...EVER. Even on Google I've been looking for anything that confirms Agro's sex and found nothing. Wikipedia does not count. People say it says in the manual, but I have it for PS2 and PS3 and Agro is always put in a gender neutral way as "Agro" or "your horse" (I heard the the Japanese don't have female/male pronouns like we do, so that might be it. It might've led to Ammy's sex-swap in Okamiden). Any interviews? Exact quotes from official material? Show it to me and from now on I'll call Agro a mare. All I've been given is rumors, things that just aren't true, and Wikipedia. Agro sounds like a very masculine name, which is why so many people consider Agro to be male("agro" as in "aggression", or if you switch the letters to Argo it sounds like Jason's ship in Greek mythology that carried the Argonauts, his mostly male team).Solo-Wing said:
Nice Article. Pointing out the best examples with Agro and the Mounts in RDR.
I think Agro's independent behaviour and Character even got me to enjoy RDR in a much more immersive way, because it's the only Game that came close to characterise Horses almost as well as with Agro.
I played through the entire Game just with the Mount you get from Bonnie (pretty much at the Beginning)!
In a way forcing a similar emotional bond with it like in Shadow of the Colossus into the Game.
(named her Xtina,because of blond mane with dark hair-ends ;-P)
Easily made the Game about 5hours longer,because of Missions I restarted when she died (naturally I was quite paranoid of cougars).
After her first death (mission in a canyon with a house - after shooting bout dozens of enemies - whistle for xtina,which i didn't know got out of the canyon in the meantime - suddenly she falls within 5feet in front of me from the sky, because she apparently took the direct route towards my whistle off the cliff - in "shock" i pressed a button just to do something - ended up skinning her by accident -looking at my dead,skinned trusty steed :-0) I played on for a short while,but my immersion having another horse(even same breed)just wasn't the same and it collided with the story I kinda wanted to be told within this Game by that point- so i loaded and replayed the mission.
At last I even ended up doing the last mission with Jack Marston riding with her (after the cut-scene when you play Jack there's a different horse, but I safed and next morning i whistled and suddenly Xtina came galloping towards him- oddly enough that made me sooo happy)- trusty steed from father to son.
Conclusion: It's amazing how well-made NPC's can enlighten a gaming-experience (and i don't even care much about horses in real life)
I think Agro's independent behaviour and Character even got me to enjoy RDR in a much more immersive way, because it's the only Game that came close to characterise Horses almost as well as with Agro.
I played through the entire Game just with the Mount you get from Bonnie (pretty much at the Beginning)!
In a way forcing a similar emotional bond with it like in Shadow of the Colossus into the Game.
(named her Xtina,because of blond mane with dark hair-ends ;-P)
Easily made the Game about 5hours longer,because of Missions I restarted when she died (naturally I was quite paranoid of cougars).
After her first death (mission in a canyon with a house - after shooting bout dozens of enemies - whistle for xtina,which i didn't know got out of the canyon in the meantime - suddenly she falls within 5feet in front of me from the sky, because she apparently took the direct route towards my whistle off the cliff - in "shock" i pressed a button just to do something - ended up skinning her by accident -looking at my dead,skinned trusty steed :-0) I played on for a short while,but my immersion having another horse(even same breed)just wasn't the same and it collided with the story I kinda wanted to be told within this Game by that point- so i loaded and replayed the mission.
At last I even ended up doing the last mission with Jack Marston riding with her (after the cut-scene when you play Jack there's a different horse, but I safed and next morning i whistled and suddenly Xtina came galloping towards him- oddly enough that made me sooo happy)- trusty steed from father to son.
Conclusion: It's amazing how well-made NPC's can enlighten a gaming-experience (and i don't even care much about horses in real life)