If you consider Naruto to be over the top, you may want to avoid Gurenn Lagann or Bobobobobo-Iforgethowtospellit.Caliostro said:
Force Unleashed 2 Is Too Much
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
I understand what Yahtzee is getting at. I mean, think about it. What makes these scenes in The Lost Crusade and the like more impressive than anything we've seen in recent media? The answer is just like Yahtzee said: it's classic one-upmanship. It's like some one is proclaiming, "O Ya! Itz ubar-epic!!!!111! Leet haxxors!!! let me tries!" They don't really know why it's epic. They don't even try to understand; they just know it is and for that reason, they try make up the rough equivalent of their own digital penis and try measuring up.
We, on the other hand, are treating to a spectacle that is, in a metaphorical sense, the guy watching one man successfully perform an impressive feat along the lines of jumping five people on a bicycle without landing on any of them. He'll think he can do that, no problem! He has the intellect level of at least a fifth grader and the ability to ride a bicycle! So he'll try to jump seven people and of course, the whole event will leave his fragile male pride in a similar state as the broken bones of some of his poor hospitalized jumpees.
His failing point is that he didn't stop to think that maybe the reason WHY the first guy succeeded was because he practiced, and even then, no one likes a copycat. We'll sympathize with those hurt, but we feel nothing towards the idiot, if not some measure of scorn.
The main reason why these 'smaller' instances impress is because they deliver the kind of tension that drives us crazy. Yahtzee's hobo had him at an inch of his life, yet that God of War monster was already up against an even worse monster: Kratos. Even if they make these large monsters, unless you deliver some kind of tension, give us reason to perceive them as an overwhelming threat, the only response they merit is, "Okay. And?"
In Indiana Jones case, in relating to the tank, we feel tension because he's on the verge of suffering the same fate as a JRPG in Yahtzee's possession: to be flattened, tossed aside, and maybe shot full of holes, if Yahtzee and the Nazis have the time. It's why the whole event is remembered so clearly.
In the end, it's important not to try to show other people up, especially since other people's opinions are so subjective. If you want to produce something to impress people, try to forget everything you ever once thought of as epic and think of something you can do and focus on that. Don't be the guy who shattered four clavicles (yes, I know what a clavicle is) and two pelvic bones.
We, on the other hand, are treating to a spectacle that is, in a metaphorical sense, the guy watching one man successfully perform an impressive feat along the lines of jumping five people on a bicycle without landing on any of them. He'll think he can do that, no problem! He has the intellect level of at least a fifth grader and the ability to ride a bicycle! So he'll try to jump seven people and of course, the whole event will leave his fragile male pride in a similar state as the broken bones of some of his poor hospitalized jumpees.
His failing point is that he didn't stop to think that maybe the reason WHY the first guy succeeded was because he practiced, and even then, no one likes a copycat. We'll sympathize with those hurt, but we feel nothing towards the idiot, if not some measure of scorn.
The main reason why these 'smaller' instances impress is because they deliver the kind of tension that drives us crazy. Yahtzee's hobo had him at an inch of his life, yet that God of War monster was already up against an even worse monster: Kratos. Even if they make these large monsters, unless you deliver some kind of tension, give us reason to perceive them as an overwhelming threat, the only response they merit is, "Okay. And?"
In Indiana Jones case, in relating to the tank, we feel tension because he's on the verge of suffering the same fate as a JRPG in Yahtzee's possession: to be flattened, tossed aside, and maybe shot full of holes, if Yahtzee and the Nazis have the time. It's why the whole event is remembered so clearly.
In the end, it's important not to try to show other people up, especially since other people's opinions are so subjective. If you want to produce something to impress people, try to forget everything you ever once thought of as epic and think of something you can do and focus on that. Don't be the guy who shattered four clavicles (yes, I know what a clavicle is) and two pelvic bones.
My friend actually pointed something out akin to this last weekend. He said:Caliostro said:
"You know how Palpatine is constantly trying to replace Vader since Vader got all slow and cyborg-y?"
"Yeah."
"Why doesn't he just off the old fuck and clone a new Anakin?"
I was speechless for hours.
But yeah, I knew TFU2 was going to be shit as soon as I saw the commercials for it. This was one of the few times you could honestly judge the game by a cg-rendered commercial(s). The first I saw was the one where he does the big wave of death and disintegrates a good amount of stormtroopers, after he was force-choking them all with a simple gesture. It made me feel confused and irritated, but it has nothing on the second.
Of course, I am referring to the commercial where Vader is blown through, like, 5 foot-long, steel walls. He gets up, not a scratch on him, and shows to be no wear for worse. THIS WAS THE MOST HEINOUS BULLSHIT I'VE EVER SEEN. I actually hate it. Like, HATE it. Who thought this made any sense!? WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING!?
The fight at the end of RotJ was the best.
I'm as mad as you're pretending not to be, smartass.I forgot said:
And you're missing the point. A good struggle needs to be not only interesting, but understandable. You take down ships of unfathomable size in Force Unleashed 2, to the extent at which you just don't care anymore, and the kind of emotions you intended to evoke is missed completely as you take them down Star Destroyers like anything else. Where do you go from there? Lifting a star fighter out of a swamp looks pretty fuckin' wimpy in comparison. You just overshadowed an entire franchise's worth of scope just to impress someone for thirty seconds. It's called moderation, and that game doesn't have it. You don't need to pull a rabbit out of your ass to impress people. Jules from Pulp Fiction can do it with a gun and a random bible verse. He didn't kill a spaceship; he just showed complexity of character. There is a time and a place for everything. And that "everything" is not interchangeable with "Deus Ex Machina".
While I am of the opinion that people who think George Lucas 'hates his fans' and 'RUINED Star Wars' are joyless wankers, I did get what Yahtzee was saying about disconnect from the story. Disregarding any actual canon related to it, the Star Destroyer scene from TFU was bad because it was badly written and was a classic case of Gameplay and Story Segregation (ooh, TV Tropes reference, how awesome am I?)
This is absolutely true, and why the big action films aren't as endearing or endeared to people's hearts like older movies. I still remember wincing when watching Bruce Willis pulling glass out of his foot in Die Hard. It barely registered when he shot himself through a bullet hole he already had in Die Hard 4.0.
Things don't have to be realistic but they have be empathic. We need to "feel" some of what's going on in the game or up on the screen. Moving to bigger and bolder is all well and good but as Yahztee says if it goes beyond the mind's ability to empathise, it's wasted energy.
Another game that did multiple endings well was Alpha Protocol. I doubt many people saw more than one but I saw at least 4. None of them are good or bad, just different. Some had twists, others left you in the dark, but none of them broke continuity.
And if people hadn't noticed George Lucas lucked out. If you used the style of editing or script from Star Wars in any other context you would see how atrociious it is. He hit the magic formula once, hired a few brilliant people who made it something special and then he just wandered into the desert of his own imagination.
Things don't have to be realistic but they have be empathic. We need to "feel" some of what's going on in the game or up on the screen. Moving to bigger and bolder is all well and good but as Yahztee says if it goes beyond the mind's ability to empathise, it's wasted energy.
Another game that did multiple endings well was Alpha Protocol. I doubt many people saw more than one but I saw at least 4. None of them are good or bad, just different. Some had twists, others left you in the dark, but none of them broke continuity.
And if people hadn't noticed George Lucas lucked out. If you used the style of editing or script from Star Wars in any other context you would see how atrociious it is. He hit the magic formula once, hired a few brilliant people who made it something special and then he just wandered into the desert of his own imagination.
Ug. Just wow.Bobic said:
Couldn't agree more with this EP. I was surprised he never referenced DBZ, which, to my mind, really defines this particular problem. When sequences are so contrived, and actors are so impossibly lucky/strong, intelligent members of the audience just tune it all out. Spectacle only exists alongside the appropriately mundane. When everyone and everything is completely over-the-top, nothing matters.
I'm reminded of the many ingenious twists of a Metal Gear Solid game. When you've lost the trust of your audience in the first half hour, no future twists serve any real purpose. It's just masturbation.
Edit: read through the entire thread, and it's sad to see people missing the point so hard. It's not about objective realism with respect to our actual world. It's about adhering to the rules of the game or movie world as implied or defined by the author. If there's no internal logic, the action has no weight or merit. It's random bullshit for the sake of random bullshit - like Family Guy.
Dark Forces 2 was jedi Knight 1. But I agree it would be nice to have a mercinary style game set in the star wars universe.Sir John the Net Knight said:
On the subject of too awesome I'm reminded of one halloween when myself and a group of friends were watching the Thing. We'd barely batted an eyelid at the at the gory monstrous deaths all through the film. Then came one seen where they were taking blood samples to see who was human and who was a Thing. There was a close up shot of a scalpel running across a persons thumb and everyone in the room visibly cringed.
Lets face it, we've all had a paper cut on our thumb so we know how bad it feels but do we know what it feels like to be torn to pieces by a big alien monster thing?
This lack of relatability (is that a word? I'm just gonna go with it) is also my beef with the Saw franchise (aside from the overall lack of plot or credible acting) the deaths are just to elaborate to the point where I simply can't relate to the situation the characters are in.
Ahh Dark Forces, good memories. How awesome would it be if you had a new 'Dark Forces' style game, with no jedi powers, and no 'I'm-not-a-jedi-but-I'll-still-have-random-superpowers' either, where occasionally you have to take out Jedi as bosses. Either by outsmarting them (ala Atton Rand's list in KotOR 2 of the various ways he successfully killed Jedi when working as a non-jedi, hence undetectable, assassin), or by some truly badass fighting. Would be nice to see the tables turned on the player for the first time in a decade or so, and have the poor PC have to take out the Jedi/Sith lord.Sir John the Net Knight said:
Ohh, Carpenter's The Thing. Great film. Truly a great film. Superb exercise in how to do a film where the 'monster' isn't particularly powerful, could easily be killed if identified, but fear itself slowly causes everyone to crack and leave vulnerabilities in their plans (note how most of the characters in the film get killed by OTHER characters, or deliberately trapped by other characters to be killed, rather than killed by the 'thing's own machinations?).
Heck, even the 'hero' takes out one or two innocent characters.
Heck, even the 'hero' takes out one or two innocent characters.
Anyone remembers Darth Nihilius from Kotor 2?
That guy was said to be a able to destroy planets. This guy was practically a deathstar on legs with serious roid abuse related problems.
That's why I don't see much sense in the Starkiller is overpowered argument. He is not the worst example. Yet Yahtzee is right how this could evolve in such a way.
The modern additions to the Star Wars myth just undermines the consistency of the first trilogy.
That guy was said to be a able to destroy planets. This guy was practically a deathstar on legs with serious roid abuse related problems.
That's why I don't see much sense in the Starkiller is overpowered argument. He is not the worst example. Yet Yahtzee is right how this could evolve in such a way.
The modern additions to the Star Wars myth just undermines the consistency of the first trilogy.
I absolutely agree with this. It's a problem of popular media resorting to 'populism'.
While I have absolutely no problem with popular media and I'm really not an elitist who only plays the 'most original and complex games out there' or some such, I hate it when populism enters the fray.
It's the kind of thing you see with TFU: you have the force and people kind of liked it. Why? Because it showed how guys in the films used some mysterious and all-encompassing power that no one really understood.
So a couple of games were made on that concept and then you have TFU and the makers probably kind of though: ok the force lightning and the force pushing things around is liked by people; lets just throw a shitload of effects on it and make everything bigger and better.
But they forgot that what made the force awesome in the (first) films, was that while some could use it, it really wasn't an every day thing and that reconfirmed that mystery: it wasn't easy to use it.
That's what populism is: using a popular concept while losing all the volume, all the actual content of that concept.
Contrary to the makers ideas, people get tired of all this OP crap sooner or later. It's like a children's game: remember when you played with action figures? These were usually fun until they were 'able' to defeat every bad guy in the book within the blink of an eye, then it was usually time to move on to the next set of heroes.
While I have absolutely no problem with popular media and I'm really not an elitist who only plays the 'most original and complex games out there' or some such, I hate it when populism enters the fray.
It's the kind of thing you see with TFU: you have the force and people kind of liked it. Why? Because it showed how guys in the films used some mysterious and all-encompassing power that no one really understood.
So a couple of games were made on that concept and then you have TFU and the makers probably kind of though: ok the force lightning and the force pushing things around is liked by people; lets just throw a shitload of effects on it and make everything bigger and better.
But they forgot that what made the force awesome in the (first) films, was that while some could use it, it really wasn't an every day thing and that reconfirmed that mystery: it wasn't easy to use it.
That's what populism is: using a popular concept while losing all the volume, all the actual content of that concept.
Contrary to the makers ideas, people get tired of all this OP crap sooner or later. It's like a children's game: remember when you played with action figures? These were usually fun until they were 'able' to defeat every bad guy in the book within the blink of an eye, then it was usually time to move on to the next set of heroes.
the thing to remember about lucas, his "great success" was the first 3 movies. Back then he was a nobody and he had a good director assigned that severely modified the scripts to be less stupid. (the original scripts by lucas were retarded)... then he got big and famous and got full creative control to do whatever he wanted... guess where that got us?
I agree in principle with the idea that the stunt in Indy 4 broke from the established reality of the medium. Because Indy is an adventure story (heroic / mystic stuff happens), rather than a fantasy (stuff happens by magic), its pretty clear to see an issue with an unrealistic stunt.
But can the same be said for FU2, the force (which is basically magic), doesn't need to fit into our reality, because its magic.
Star Killer can be the mutts nutts when it comes to the force, thats fine - but where I do see the disconnect is the fact that Vader and Sideous are both rubbish compared to Star Killer - but thats the problem doing prequels, you always end up jumping the shark because you can - which I believe is the point that is being made.
In short, all things made later - seem more advanced than things made in the past - even if they are set before events that occurred. (Star Trek has similar problems)
But can the same be said for FU2, the force (which is basically magic), doesn't need to fit into our reality, because its magic.
Star Killer can be the mutts nutts when it comes to the force, thats fine - but where I do see the disconnect is the fact that Vader and Sideous are both rubbish compared to Star Killer - but thats the problem doing prequels, you always end up jumping the shark because you can - which I believe is the point that is being made.
In short, all things made later - seem more advanced than things made in the past - even if they are set before events that occurred. (Star Trek has similar problems)
But didn't Yahtzee make the point that the Colossi "feel" real, shaking the ground and pawing sleepily at the player clinging onto them?Bobic said:
Personally I thought that Crystal Skull's most "real" scene, and in fact the only genuinely affecting one in the movie, involved two elderly professors talking in a classroom. (Of course, it didn't hurt that the professors in question were played by Harrison Ford and Jim Broadbent.) The characters spent most of the movie dashing from place to place, but it was the moments when they stopped running about and took time with each other that really resonated for me. That's not a good quality for an action / adventure-themed movie to have.