Free Radicals

[Farther than stars]

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

Fine, but that still leaves it being gender specific and 'sire' is usually used to denote male dogs.

 

[The Material Sheep]

The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

 

[Vegosiux]

Well, "radical" isn't a good word apparently, so how about "tubular" or "gnarly" then?

I could also settle for "quirky". Then I'm out of ideas.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually[footnote]Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?[/footnote]. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

 

[Miroluck]

But seriously, Erin identifies as a Feminist, now, too?

I thought she always did.

God...so politically correct...so...uptight...

Careful now. You wouldn't want people to swoop in saying "Political corectness is just basic human f***ing decency! Everyone who complains about it are just a bully! And probably a republican as well. All republicans are only watching Fox News, right? I mean, everyone knows that." /strawman over.

 

[Odoylerules360]

Grey and Cory:

1. I don't really think you know what you're talking about, and
2. disagreeing with feminism is a great way to get banned, so thanks for the comic, I, erm... 'loved' it.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I honestly can't even tell what the joke in this comic is. That radical can also mean "cool"? Ha? I don't know, maybe I'm just too numb to anything involving the word feminism.

As to my definition. A radical feminist is someone that can listen to the song 'All I Want For Christmas Is You' and say it is enforcing sexist beliefs of women.

 

[iniudan]

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

Fine, but that still leaves it being gender specific and 'sire' is usually used to denote male dogs.

It's normal to have gender specific term when speaking of sexual reproduction, so where the problem ?

Second what your saying is mostly used when speaking of dog lineage where using husbandry term is usually the norm, no one use sire in general conversation or writing to denote that a dog is male, outside of been a synonyms for father, generally only used in higher linguistic register or to prevent repetition, at least in this part of Canada.

 

[Headsprouter]

But seriously, Erin identifies as a Feminist, now, too?

I thought she always did.

I'm speaking as somebody relatively new to these comics, I'm slowly learning more about Erin as I go along, is what I'm trying to say. I have no issue, really with her being a feminist, but it's adding slowly to the impression of excessive political-correctness I'm getting from her. I find it boring.

Then again, I might be a bit of a heathen. I find the offensive habits of the 4chan community quite intriguing in a morbid sort of way.

 

[IceForce]

disagreeing with feminism is a great way to get banned, so thanks for the comic, I, erm... 'loved' it.

Really?

Kindly point out to me the specific rule in the code of conduct, that states that disagreeing with feminism is a bannable offense.

 

[Mr F.]

You know, I cannot from any real perspective see how this comic will create an argument. It is quite simply pointing out that "Radical" in this particular context does not mean what many attribute it to mean. I see no issue.

... then you haven't been on this website for long enough, or you haven't been paying attention.

I'll give you a couple of recent examples.

Jimquisition about how internet death threats are bad:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.825793-Jimquisition-Im-Going-To-Murder-Your-Children
This shoud've been simple. Internet death threats are bad. There's no disputing it.
But somehow, it spiralled into 16 pages of arguments.

ZP, where Yahtzee makes a hamless and throwaway transgender joke:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.825922-Zero-Punctuation-Papers-Please-and-Brothers-A-Tale-of-Two-Sons
Once again, something that should've been pretty tame, spiralled into a massive flamewar that completely took over the thread.

There are many, many other countless examples.
People here will find anything to argue about.

I know I was sorta trying to argue that in a sane universe there is NOTHING to argue about here. With regards to Yahtzees shit joke, it was a pretty problematic joke. I mean, I found the edit to be far more amusing than the original. So I can understand some of the argument that went on there. Well, I can understand people saying "I found this joke really quite offensive", not really the people going "ITS A JOKE AND I DONT UNDERSTAND LANGUAGE OR HUMAN COMMUNICATION.". Thats life though, different strokes.

I have been around here long enough to go that if you were to get ten Escapists into a room and go "Should I turn on the light?" 4 of them will say yes and the other four will form factions, one arguing that the turning on of a light is a horrific act that should never be committed due to reasons and the others calling them ignorant fuckwits for wanting to sit in the dark, with the last two going "LOL THE FIGHT IS FUNNY LOL LOL FUNNY LOL" and watching.

EDIT:

disagreeing with feminism is a great way to get banned, so thanks for the comic, I, erm... 'loved' it.

Really?

Kindly point out to me the specific rule in the code of conduct, that states that disagreeing with feminism is a bannable offense.

Heh, I love that argument. That this site is super liberal and all the detractors get banned. You get banned for insulting people. Thats all. I mean, I have been in my fair share of feminism threads and I have never seen someone banned for simply disagreeing. Plenty banned on both sides for insulting each other, but nobody banned for simply disagreeing.

If disagreeing with feminism got you banned, about 10% of the population here would get banned.

 

[Spambot 3000]

Oh man I haven't heard that 'Get what you give' song in AGES. Still sounds so cool, too.

 

[Bruce]

Okay, I am curious. Enlighten me what a radical feminist is. I'll admit I do tend to associate them as females who associate their exploitation with men, with the declaration that it's something built into men to do. This is in contrast to liberal feminists and Marxist feminists. I don't tend to associate the "radical" part with extreme or edgy, just the full label to what I've learnt about them. Things like political lesbianism. If you want a comparison to what I tend to associate radical feminism with, this quote by Ann Oakley is a good representation: "Men are the enemies of women. Promising sublime intimacy, unequalled passion, amazing security and grace, they nevertheless exploit and injure in a myriad subtle ways. Without men the world would be a better place: softer, kinder, more loving; calmer, quieter, more humane. "

Radical feminism holds that when it comes right down to it the differences between male and female are at best highly exaggerated by modern culture, resulting in misery as everyone invariably falls outside what is considered 'normal'.

This is what makes it radical, it questions the very basis of a lot what we mean by gender and how gender roles are formulated.

Take aggression as an example, a trait that is seen as male. A woman will get called a '*****' mostly for doing the same things that get a man called 'dynamic' and a 'natural leader'. Meanwhile because we culturally assume men to be more aggressive, we are automatically seen as a threat - which means longer prison sentences and that little bit more of a presumption of guilt in cases involving violence.

Another example is nurturing, which is seen as a female trait. You get women who just don't fit the nurturing mould, and men who do but because women are seen as the nurturing sex they are forced into it while the men who would actually be good at it are often looked down upon.

From a radical feminist perspective, homophobia and transphobia are symptoms of how this system plays out - because in both cases you have people who fall outside of their boxes, and society trying to shove them back in.

 

[Frankster]

There was a time i made an effort to learn about feminism and its varieties.

Now i just judge on a case to case basis based on what is being said. So this joke kinda flew over my head i'm afraid :/

 

[Ragsnstitches]

The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

Footnote: Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?

What does slut mean then? My common understanding of Slut is a derogatory term for "promiscuous women". Whenever I hear the term used against women, it's because they have had multiple sexual partners or refuse stable relationships in favour of casual sex. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of transient relationships. However society (here at least, in Ireland and I suspect with their Virgin Complex the States too) has a very negative view on women who are sexually active and in a casual way.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in your footnote, but the Feminist movement didn't redefine the word slut. My understanding is that some tried to break down "slut shaming" by pointing out the hypocrisy (Promiscuous Men are Studs yada yada), some tried to level it out and make it a gender neutral term (so men can be labelled sluts too) and some have tried to remove the negative connotations of the term (which is where Slutwalking comes in).

The Former is a more general Feminist viewpoint (de-constructing the notion that women are sexual objects for men), while the latter seems to be far more specific... focusing on the stigma attached to certain associated appearances. Reading the wiki article (cause I'm not in the mood for scholarly reading) it apparently originated from women been told to "avoid dressing like sluts" to avoid getting raped, which understandably drew out the ire of many women, not just feminists. The "Slutwalk" is a form of protest that attempts to attack notions that, somehow, certain women are responsible for their rapes because of what they wear.

This is often seen as guilt transference or victim blaming. The argument of "well if you leave a window open when you go away, you shouldn't be surprised if stuff gets stolen" seems to brought up in contrast to it. Personally I don't think comparing a woman's dress sense to an inanimate object is helping ease tensions at all, but big the problem is what is considered "Slutty", superficially, is highly subjective. The common image is skimpy clothing, fishnets and bountiful cleavage. But what represents a "Slut" is highly dependant on personal values, for instance, in certain Islamic cultures revealing your lips in public is enough... with or without makeup. A hundred years ago a bare ankle/calf would have a woman labelled as being lude and indecent. In certain areas here simply wearing makeup (if in poor taste) is enough to get you called slutty looking.

Basically, a not too small group of women took offence to being told they should shape their lives around rape avoidance (massive exaggeration, but it's essentially what happened). From where I'm standing the Slutwalks have good intentions behind it.

That said, you mentioned it's become more of an Outrage Engine then a legitimate movement. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by that?

 

[Blaster395]

There's a term for the definition you gave that doesn't conflict with the Radical Feminism movement, which is what the comic was talking about. That term is Tumblr Feminist, and the internet (but especially Tumblr) is full of them. I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Tumblr yet, because the place is to internet faux outrage what Reddit is to image macros. And also to image macros what reddit is to image macros, along with 4chan.

Tumblr is the hosting website of the Oppression Olympics right now.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

Footnote: Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?

What does slut mean then? My common understanding of Slut is a derogatory term for "promiscuous women". Whenever I hear the term used against women, it's because they have had multiple sexual partners or refuse stable relationships in favour of casual sex. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of transient relationships. However society (here at least, in Ireland and I suspect with their Virgin Complex the States too) has a very negative view on women who are sexually active and in a casual way.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in your footnote, but the Feminist movement didn't redefine the word slut. My understanding is that some tried to break down "slut shaming" by pointing out the hypocrisy (Promiscuous Men are Studs yada yada), some tried to level it out and make it a gender neutral term (so men can be labelled sluts too) and some have tried to remove the negative connotations of the term (which is where Slutwalking comes in).

The Former is a more general Feminist viewpoint (de-constructing the notion that women are sexual objects for men), while the latter seems to be far more specific... focusing on the stigma attached to certain associated appearances. Reading the wiki article (cause I'm not in the mood for scholarly reading) it apparently originated from women been told to "avoid dressing like sluts" to avoid getting raped, which understandably drew out the ire of many women, not just feminists. The "Slutwalk" is a form of protest that attempts to attack notions that, somehow, certain women are responsible for their rapes because of what they wear.

This is often seen as guilt transference or victim blaming. The argument of "well if you leave a window open when you go away, you shouldn't be surprised if stuff gets stolen" seems to brought up in contrast to it. Personally I don't think comparing a woman's dress sense to an inanimate object is helping ease tensions at all, but big the problem is what is considered "Slutty", superficially, is highly subjective. The common image is skimpy clothing, fishnets and bountiful cleavage. But what represents a "Slut" is highly dependant on personal values, for instance, in certain Islamic cultures revealing your lips in public is enough... with or without makeup. A hundred years ago a bare ankle/calf would have a woman labelled as being lude and indecent. In certain areas here simply wearing makeup (if in poor taste) is enough to get you called slutty looking.

Basically, a not too small group of women took offence to being told they should shape their lives around rape avoidance (massive exaggeration, but it's essentially what happened). From where I'm standing the Slutwalks have good intentions behind it.

That said, you mentioned it's become more of an Outrage Engine then a legitimate movement. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by that?

Basically a slut is a woman who has casual sex with so many partners that she lost count a long time ago, especially if she uses that sex as a weapon to get other things she wants. It's not simply a woman who "enjoys sex." Further, men do not get high fives for that kind of promiscuity either, not once they're out of high school, anyway. Have you ever heard the term "man-whore" used in a derogatory manner? Because I sure as hell have. The idea that only women get made fun of for promiscuity and only men get high fives for it is, at best, a Hollywood myth. What the slutwalk did was remove all nuance from the discussion surrounding the word. [edit]A slut is also not particularly choosy in her partners. A promiscuous woman has a lot of sex. A slut has a lot of indiscriminate sex. Note that I'm not saying I actually use this word, I'm just giving the definition as I understand it and have seen it used, because it differs significantly from the way modern feminists use it.[/edit]

It's also not "victim blaming" to suggest there are things the victim could have done differently to protect themselves, otherwise it's "victim blaming" to tell people to lock their doors at night. If the locked door thing is too far off to be a good analogy for you, then here's this: a man dressed in a nice suit should not walk alone in a bad part of town, otherwise he risks getting mugged. That's not victim blaming, it's sound advice. Of course in a perfect world crime wouldn't happen, but we do not and never will live in that world. "Telling men not to rape" is going to do nothing but alienate the men who already know it's a bad thing.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I honestly can't even tell what the joke in this comic is. That radical can also mean "cool"? Ha? I don't know, maybe I'm just too numb to anything involving the word feminism.

As to my definition. A radical feminist is someone that can listen to the song 'All I Want For Christmas Is You' and say it is enforcing sexist beliefs of women.

Well radical, as well as meaning extreme by the third or fourth definition given by any dictionary, also means of, relating to, or proceeding from a root. So in this case talking about radical feminists would mean original feminists. The whole comic is just muddled though, a point I have made on page 4 of this thread.