Funny events in anti-woke world

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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I did mean in the former sense because so often the argument seems to be framed around changing room situations (for example). I mean, what real threat is there to the identity of cis women from the extremely small numbers of trans women?
If I can argue this by example... from some women I know, there was sympathy with Rowling when she criticised the term "people who menstruate" used instead of "women". Menstruation is a fundamental experience of nearly all women, which has historically been heavily stigmatised and to an extent still is, and has been heavily under-considered in terms of health and hygeine. It feels to them like the experiences and reality of the vast majority of women, that they have fought for for a long time to be improved upon, are being set aside or stripped from them. A feeling that for women's organisations to discuss menstruation as a women's issue could be attacked as exclusionary: leaving them again feeling unable to discuss it freely or think of it as a woman's experience. I think for many this is a challenge and a frustration; for older ones particularly because it intrudes on closely-held beliefs they spent a long time struggling over, and like anyone, letting go of such beliefs is not easy.

And to be fair, in terms of more explicit threat, I don't think a lot of these women are so much worried by trans women in their gender-specific spaces as they are worried about men pretending to be trans women in their gender-specific spaces.
 

Baffle

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If I can argue this by example... from some women I know, there was sympathy with Rowling when she criticised the term "people who menstruate" used instead of "women". Menstruation is a fundamental experience of nearly all women, which has historically been heavily stigmatised and to an extent still is, and has been heavily under-considered in terms of health and hygeine. It feels to them like the experiences and reality of the vast majority of women, that they have fought for for a long time to be improved upon, are being set aside or stripped from them. A feeling that for women's organisations to discuss menstruation as a women's issue could be attacked as exclusionary: leaving them again feeling unable to discuss it freely or think of it as a woman's experience. I think for many this is a challenge and a frustration; for older ones particularly because it intrudes on closely-held beliefs they spent a long time struggling over, and like anyone, letting go of such beliefs is not easy.
I can see the argument, I just think it's unnecessarily exclusionary for no real gain. I appreciate that's probably my male privilege talking, but that's the way I see it. I see Rowling as like a less shitty Linehan - she got called out on something, didn't like that, and has progressively doubled down and gotten more and more obsessed by the issue (not as far an Linehan, who has quite successfully wrecked his own life).

And to be fair, in terms of more explicit threat, I don't think a lot of these women are so much worried by trans women in their gender-specific spaces as they are worried about men pretending to be trans women in their gender-specific spaces.
Which is horrendously unfair on trans people - they're being punished for someone else's crime.
 

Dalisclock

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A Barrel In the Marketplace
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A year and change?

This pandemic is like 3 months away from being 2 years old. If it was a toddler it would be walking around and answering all questions with "no."
It feels like a hell of a lot longer, to be honest. Like keeping proper track of time in all of this has become a lot harder.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Getting kinda weird

Are we really getting to a point where people should require a license for consuming information?! Because Jesus H. Christ!

The Mist is becoming quite the relevant movie in these Covid times.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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I see Rowling as like a less shitty Linehan - she got called out on something, didn't like that, and has progressively doubled down and gotten more and more obsessed by the issue (not as far an Linehan, who has quite successfully wrecked his own life).
I think there's a huge difference between Rowling and Linehan. Linehan is a flat out anti-trans activist and extraordinarily unpleasant about it. Rowling however both accepts transgenderism and broadly extends a great deal of compassion to trans people. Whatever the underlying rationale, at a practical level it seems to me to summarise as official recognition of gender change should occur with medical transition, and anywhere along the scale trans people should receive due help, protection, dignity and respect. The very understandable huge problem, particularly for trans people, is that dignity and respect should include recognising their gender before they medically transition, so we can see why Rowling's view is deeply unsatisfactory.

As for why she's got a hang-up on this, she has told us herself and it should be easy to empathise with even for those who disagree with her.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Something in the water? TV really does rot your brain?
Something in the private Facebook groups and telegram channels more like. The water is just gay chemicals while TV is Soros-funded subliminal control: easily countered by weekly bleach enemas and horse medication.

Are we really getting to a point where people should require a license for consuming information?! Because Jesus H. Christ!

The Mist is becoming quite the relevant movie in these Covid times.
It's a mess. Their brains are a bunch of scrambled nonsense. Also don't look into the guy mentioned there, William Henry, if you value sanity. I've no idea how he got so popular, even has a show on prime called Gaia or some shit, to do with, oh I can't even muster the energy to summarise anymore.
 

tstorm823

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As for why she's got a hang-up on this, she has told us herself and it should be easy to empathise with even for those who disagree with her.
She has money. I'm pretty sure that means it's illegal to empathize with her in 2021.
 

Terminal Blue

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I love Laverne, She was in that movie Jolt I just saw and loved. But with all due respect, she's pretty obviously trans imo.
Ah yes, I see you are the kind of cis person who can always tell when someone is trans. Truly you have a unique and special gif which no other cis person likes to pretend they have.

I mean, I can't clock Laverne so I don't know how you think you can. Is it because she's tall? Do you assume any tall woman you meet is trans? Or is it perhaps because, when you know someone is trans, you do what cis people do and dissect their appearance relentlessly to compare against the stereotype you carry around in your head.

Like, just for one moment consider the transparency of the glass house you are living in as a cishet man trying to judge other people's appearances.

So I feel like my statement stands, and additionally of all the trans debates I've seen whether on the BBC, or Austrailian news, or Jordan Peterson debates, I've never seen Laverne involved or even mentioned in any of that.
Thats your sample of trans rights discourse?

The fact you would honestly put Jordan Peterson in there. Just.. how on earth do you manage to type this shit without cringing yourself into a gravitational singularity.

But I have genuinely watched a lot of debates and even some extreme point of views like from Riley Dennis.
We get it, you watched some Blair White videos.

But if someone wants to blend in and be a part of society then society does care. And standing out in some ways makes people unfortunately think than transwomen are just crazy men.
Well that's fucking stupid.

Try to see this from my perspective. All I'm seeing here is "pay attention to me" "pay attention to my defective opinions and weird personal hangups" "please tell me I'm important".

You're not important. You don't speak for society, and if you did noone of any value would want to be part of that society. This unbelievable level of arrogance is not cute. It's not attractive. I will judge you for it, and I'm not alone in doing so. If you don't care about my judgement, ask yourself why I should care for one second about yours.
 

Silvanus

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Ok, good chat.

I look forward to seeing you cite any successful litigation in the Western world for the use of a term such as "harmful", which is used every day in countless national publications.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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I don't think it's possible to hate Candace Owens as much as she hates herself.
Everytime I hear her speak, it never sounds like she's particularly convinced of her own words. There's this wavering lack of energy behind the parroted word-for-word far right talking points she repeats, a distinct emotional disconnect like a half-assed performance. Basically she's in it for the PragerU/Talking Point USA cash, is my theory. It's easy big monies if you're morally dead flexible.
 
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Terminal Blue

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Rowling however both accepts transgenderism and broadly extends a great deal of compassion to trans people. Whatever the underlying rationale, at a practical level it seems to me to summarise as official recognition of gender change should occur with medical transition, and anywhere along the scale trans people should receive due help, protection, dignity and respect. The very understandable huge problem, particularly for trans people, is that dignity and respect should include recognising their gender before they medically transition, so we can see why Rowling's view is deeply unsatisfactory.
Personally I think that's what Rowling thinks she believes, and what she wants other people to think that she believes. In reality, I don't think she's lived up to those beliefs at all, even bearing in mind that they are unsatisfactory. Rowling and Linehan very literally use the same arguments and talking points. Linehan does not couch himself in disclaimers about having trans friends or having empathy for trans people, he is very open that he hates all trans people, but that in itself should probably tell you something. If a person who claims to love and have empathy for trans people and a person who makes no secret of outright hating them can literally use the same arguments, what does that actually say?

I have empathy for Rowling, just as I have empathy for people like Sheila Jeffreys who is ultimately responsible for a lot of the "gender critical" bullshit Rowling regurgitates. I remember reading Jeffreys in my masters and immediately seeing myself in her writing in a powerful way. She (like Rowling, and like a lot of people who get sucked into "gender critical" world) is someone who has been deeply, deeply harmed by men and has struggled to understand why, as any human being would in that situation, and I think anyone who is in that situation (myself included) will probably resonate with her perspective and insight. That empathy would never be reciprocated, but that's not how empathy works.

At the same time, I look at someone like Andrea Dworkin, someone who also struggled to understand the harm inflicted on her and was no less insightful in doing so, but who ultimately came away with a fierce determination never to replicate that harm, whose empathy for other marginalized people wasn't a disclaimer but an integral part of her life. Having empathy for someone does not preclude the responsibility on them to do better. Going after trans people because it's easier than going after the cis men who have actually harmed you isn't doing enough.
 
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tstorm823

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Are you suggesting that no one empathised with the footballers who received racist abuse, or are you suggesting they don't have any money?
No, I'm being flippant and exaggerated. But to take your counterexample seriously, I guarantee there are people who said "why should I care about them being abused, they're rich." A lot of people put empathy on a sliding scale, where some people apparently don't deserve it, particularly anyone with wealth, and that's just not how empathy works.
 

Baffle

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No, I'm being flippant and exaggerated. But to take your counterexample seriously, I guarantee there are people who said "why should I care about them being abused, they're rich." A lot of people put empathy on a sliding scale, where some people apparently don't deserve it, particularly anyone with wealth, and that's just not how empathy works.
I'm sure plenty of shitty people thought that. Certainly I find it harder to empathise with rich people, because their lives are so removed from ours, but it very much depends on the person and the nature of what's afflicting them. I think it's hilarious the Giles Coren's car keeps being stolen, but I'd feel bad if it happened to a good person.
 
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