Funny events in anti-woke world

Ag3ma

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You know what the point is. You know the media deliberately spreads falsehoods.
That's like saying "authors write crime fiction". True in a sense, but also deeply misleading when we consider many authors do not write crime fiction.

Media varies in quality. You're arguing this off a discussion point where you are either failing to demonstrate media reporting was false, or where you have identified error that it was deliberate.

And now you are shrugging off the desire for honest reporting in exactly the way you described. You have tasted one-sided journalism, and you prefer it.
I'm shrugging off your attempt to deflect criticism of Donald Trump with a dishonest attack on the media.
 
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Silvanus

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I did none of that.
Condemning the media for describing a suggestion as a suggestion is that. Saying that drinking bleach is a "perfect remembering" of what the media reported is that. You inarguably did these things and anyone can just go back a page or two to see.

I never said that. I'm tracking the proliferation of falsehoods, starting at the news media. It would counter my claims if Biden had maliciously invented that.
It's quite obvious that isn't your motive, though. You leap into action to take the media to account-- even to the point of misrepresenting what they reported-- only when they criticise Trump or the Republicans. Your intent isn't to hold the media to account in any nonpartisan way. Its simply to deflect and defuse criticisms of the Republicans, whether those reports are true and fair criticisms or not.

If you weren't always saying something markedly worse than the truth, I wouldn't be taking a softer position. You are a victim of only your own extremism.
I've described what Trump actually, demonstrably suggested. That is the truth. He suggested it, and I (and the media) pointed to it and described it accurately. You are the only one here to invent a worse scenario-- one in which the media said he suggested to drink bleach. They didn't do that-- you invented it as a smear.
 
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tstorm823

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You are the only one here to invent a worse scenario-- one in which the media said he suggested to drink bleach. They didn't do that-- you invented it as a smear.
Did you forget the Atlantic titled their article on it "Why It’s Important Not to Drink Bleach"?

Would you prefer the Inside Edition coverage: Should You Drink Bleach or Lysol to Cure Coronavirus?

Would you really not say those titles "suggest" he said that?
Media varies in quality. You're arguing this off a discussion point where you are either failing to demonstrate media reporting was false, or where you have identified error that it was deliberate.
Are you willing to claim that Time article was not deliberately misleading? I'm pretty sure we thoroughly identified that article as false and then tracked their source data down to prove they had the correct information.
 

Silvanus

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Did you forget the Atlantic titled their article on it "Why It’s Important Not to Drink Bleach"?
They didn't claim Trump told people to. They just warned not to-- at a time when people were drinking bleach.

You're effectively arguing that the media should not warn people against genuine dangers if there's a risk it makes the President look bad.

The fact remains: I didn't invent a worse scenario, and only ever described what he said accurately. Whereas you've consistently been misrepresenting what was reported-- complaining that a suggestion was described as a suggestion, for instance.
 
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Thaluikhain

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While this is going nowhere, would it not be worse to inject bleach than to drink the same amount, anyway?

You can add a tiny amount of bleach (as in a drop or two) to a given amount of water to sterilise it, but injecting it...don't do that.
 

Ag3ma

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Are you willing to claim that Time article was not deliberately misleading? I'm pretty sure we thoroughly identified that article as false and then tracked their source data down to prove they had the correct information.
No, what you've shown is that daily data could be accessed, but you have not demonstrated that the daily data is what the Time journalist accessed. Thus no firm conclusion can be drawn whether it was deliberate or not.
 

tstorm823

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No, what you've shown is that daily data could be accessed, but you have not demonstrated that the daily data is what the Time journalist accessed. Thus no firm conclusion can be drawn whether it was deliberate or not.
He named the document he used, and then I showed you the document. You're effectively speculating that he could only see the left third of a page.
They didn't claim Trump told people to. They just warned not to-- at a time when people were drinking bleach.

You're effectively arguing that the media should not warn people against genuine dangers if there's a risk it makes the President look bad.
They warned not to with articles almost entirely about Trump, sometimes with a big picture of his face slapped across it. Maybe you could take a generous reading that they were using Trump to draw attention to genuine dangers, but that's still manipulative.
 

Ag3ma

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He named the document he used, and then I showed you the document. You're effectively speculating that he could only see the left third of a page.
He named where the data came from - that's not necessarily the same thing as the document he used.
 
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tstorm823

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He named where the data came from - that's not necessarily the same thing as the document he used.
You know what? Fine. I will prove it. Beyond a shadow of doubt, I will prove it. And if you will be so kind as to admit I was correct on this specific instance, it's not going to crush your arguments overall, and I promise I won't gloat about it.

The article:

" President Trump’s April 23 musing that injections of disinfectant could help defeat the coronavirus did not do much for his reputation as a reliable arbiter of public health. What’s harder to determine is how many people—if any—took his advice and in some way ingested the toxic chemicals. The most recent bulletin from the American Association of Poison Control Centers (AAPCC), which aggregates data from its state counterparts, does offer some clues, however. "

He calls out the bulletin in a hyperlink, which unfortunately is a dead link that takes you here:
1693592725485.png

But we are on the internet where nothing ever dies, so I went to the wayback machine for the page from May 11th, 2020, the day before he posted the article, and the first day any content was listed on that url.


This time the page looks like this:
1693593104028.png
This is the source of the data that he hyperlinked to. You cannot deny he was on this page, he linked to it in the article. Note: there is no data on this page directly. In order to get his numbers from here, he had to click those 3 links to see the bulletins. And when you click those links, it opens these 3 bulletins:

Those have year over year data that exactly matches the data that Time used:
1693593656241.png 1693593672488.png

He linked to his source. I followed the link the minimum possible amount to find the numbers he used, there is no lesser summary at the website he linked to with his numbers, and directly next to it was the exact graph used by Ars Technica:
1693593811693.png

Are you satisfied?
 

Silvanus

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They warned not to with articles almost entirely about Trump, sometimes with a big picture of his face slapped across it. Maybe you could take a generous reading that they were using Trump to draw attention to genuine dangers, but that's still manipulative.
OK...? I'm sorry they put some pictures in a misleading place. This makes it about 10% as misleading as you were, when you entirely misrepresented what they said.
 

Trunkage

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He literally says "and some, I assume, are good people" in that comment. You don't have to assume he meant that, he literally said it out loud. But I also don't defend what he said there, as even with the qualifier it's a terrible thing to say. I'm pretty sure you're misremembering this one.
Men bring crime. Men are rapist. And some, I assume, are good people

Therefore, we should remove all men from society, perhaps some sort of giant wall to protect all innocent people
 

Trunkage

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Oh god. Someone please persuade him to retire ASAP.
Unfortunately, we probably don't want him to retire. All Dems have been othered by MAGA/Trump/Q/other far-right groups and no GOP member will ever listen to them. They MIGHT, and it's a very low percentage, listen to McConnell. But they are already well on their way to othering most of the GOP too

It's why the debate was just identity politics and with little actual policies and Nikki Haley won't win
 

Terminal Blue

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Not at all, it is my position that they shouldn't lie.
Where is the lie?

Instead we got stories that implied he was recommending people try to disinfect themselves, followed closely by other stories pretending there was a subsequent spike in people trying to do so.
Again. Context.

The head of state of a country with a third of a billion people living in it calls a press conference at the start of a global viral pandemic. In this press conference, he reports the recent scientific finding that disinfectant and sunlight are effective at destroying virons on surfaces. Rather than leaving that be, however, he then proceeds to ramble incoherently about how scientists should investigate the possibility of using disinfectant and UV radiation internally, with the clear implication being that this might lead to a potential treatment that has been overlooked.

Again, this is not a random old man in a nursing home. It is someone in a position of extreme authority. It is the highest political authority in the country, if not the planet. Someone who is specifically able to call media conferences and whose words will be reported worldwide. In that context, the fact that he chose to use this platform to speculate about unproven and dangerous treatments is likely to be interpreted as an endorsement because why else is the most powerful individual on the planet using his authority to tell you about this?

On one hand, we are supposed to believe that Trump and the people who voted for him are serious people with serious concerns and not to infantilize them as politically naive, but as soon as Trump becomes inconvenient we are meant to dismiss him as a funny clown who noone would ever take seriously. Choose one. This man was elected to what is arguably the most powerful position on the planet, what he says absolutely matters, unfortunately.
 
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Ag3ma

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You know what? Fine. I will prove it. Beyond a shadow of doubt, I will prove it.
...
Are you satisfied?
No. Let me explain why.

I've marked a lot of student essays. And I have seen a lot of citations where I can tell that the student never read the sources they cited. Usually, they've read a secondary source (probably a review article), but used the citations that secondary source supplied because it looks better for the bibliography.

Secondly, I can absolutely believe someone really did just look at the nice, simple numbers from the table and didn't bother trying to interpret the graph right next to it. That also (and even more tragically) is something I know from marking science students' work.

These are of course really variations on the old dictum "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
 
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Trunkage

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They didn't claim Trump told people to. They just warned not to-- at a time when people were drinking bleach.

You're effectively arguing that the media should not warn people against genuine dangers if there's a risk it makes the President look bad.

The fact remains: I didn't invent a worse scenario, and only ever described what he said accurately. Whereas you've consistently been misrepresenting what was reported-- complaining that a suggestion was described as a suggestion, for instance.
This is a classic case of two separate news items coming out within a month of each other that are now mushed into one narrative

The CDC had a survey saying that 4% of Americans had drunk disinfectant or bleach

This is separate from Trump's statements
 

crimson5pheonix

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If you remember "Rich men north of Richmond" from a couple weeks ago, there's a proper musical response to it now that works far better than the culture war handwringing about the singer.

 

tstorm823

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Secondly, I can absolutely believe someone really did just look at the nice, simple numbers from the table and didn't bother trying to interpret the graph right next to it. That also (and even more tragically) is something I know from marking science students' work.
Turning year over year numbers into percentages and comparing increases by month and then attempting to dissect them across the day Trump made his comment is infinitely more effort than looking at the graph and seeing the peak before he said anything. The graph is big and simple. The numbers are small and more complicated. Your analysis doesn't make sense even if we try to rationalize it that way, which we shouldn't, because this isn't an undergrad doing the bare minimum on a mandatory assignment, this is a senior science writer authoring a voluntary piece for one of the world's most prominent magazines.

If this was a court case, the jury would convict on this evidence. Your defense isn't fooling anyone.