Funny events in anti-woke world

Hawki

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Gordon_4

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I was all geared up to get on my soapbox about just how old “On Her Majesty’s Secret Service” was until I noticed the not inconsiderable detail of it being “His Majesty”, something I have a weird feeling is going to trip me up with British spy fiction.
 

tstorm823

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Yes, and yet you still referred to drinking bleach as a "perfect remembering" of what the media reported, which is irreconcilable with the acknowledgement above.

I don't give a shit about all these other facile excuses for why you still consider the reporting misleading and malicious. The reasons you've given so far have been frankly kind of pathetic-- "these two separate true statements could be misleading if blah-de-blah", "they shouldn't call a suggestion a suggestion", "they shouldn't warn people about genuine dangers if it could make the President look bad". All just so weak, circumstantial and speculatory partisan waffle, as you dance around the fact that nothing they said was actually wrong, and you described it in a way that was factually wrong.
If the news actively associates Trump's comments with drinking bleach, and you remember that association, it is remembering what you were told. This is not that complicated.

The media actively associates Trump's comments with drinking bleach -> People think Trump told people to drink bleach

Did the media make that association? Yes, and you are well aware of it. Did people think that? Yes, that's how all this started. You understand the cause, you understand the effect, you're not even actually disputing the cause and effect relationship, your only point is "they didn't literally say that, so you told a lie" even though I never say they literally said that.

I'm a little worried right now about your ability to process context. Not only can't you seem to see the implication putting a giant picture of bleach before talking about Trump's comments, you also don't seem to have understood at all why I said "perfect remembering". Agema attempted to say that people thought Trump said to drink bleach because they have "imperfect, human memories", suggesting someone just forgot what was said over time. My point about "perfect remembering" wasn't that people memorized the headlines perfectly, but that the idea of Trump telling people to drink bleach didn't happen after a long period to forget the details, it came out within days of that press conference. It's not a situation where people just forgot what was said over time, it's a situation where they accurately recalled what they believed when it happened. And I showed a multitude of things that would create that false narrative that were published within a week of his statement.
The weird irony is that Trump's stupidity probably helped reduce bleach poisonings in the medium-long term, because it drove a huge campaign to warn people to take more care. It doesn't, however, make Trump's stupidity any less stupid.
It's not a weird irony, it's a deliberate outcome on the part of the news. Put 2+2 together!

The media makes money through attracting people's attention. Tying accidental poisonings to Trump's comments makes it controversial, which attracts a lot of attention. They did it on purpose, it's literally what their business is. They aren't paid based on being honest, they aren't paid based on informing people of dangerous practices, they are paid based on audience size, so they did the thing they got them an audience. They don't care if people take away the wrong message, they did what made it as big of a headline as possible.
 

Thaluikhain

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I was all geared up to get on my soapbox about just how old “On Her Majesty’s Secret Service” was until I noticed the not inconsiderable detail of it being “His Majesty”, something I have a weird feeling is going to trip me up with British spy fiction.
Huh, yeah.

(The article is otherwise a bit weird, claiming Bond is now progressive by saying he's a centrist wanting to defend the establishment, especially the monarchy. That seems an odd thing for progressives to do.)
 

Gordon_4

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Huh, yeah.

(The article is otherwise a bit weird, claiming Bond is now progressive by saying he's a centrist wanting to defend the establishment, especially the monarchy. That seems an odd thing for progressives to do.)
Well the villain is a thinly veiled version (allegedly) of Nigel Farage, who I think is/was the found of UKIP. Although why their book counterparts would want to assassinate the king is a mystery since the monarchy is something they’re keen on.

Also the things about worrying about gut health making him soft, that’s just fucking weird. Assuming the Bond they’re using for the book is based on Daniel Craig - who incidentally for some stupid reason had some shade thrown at him for carrying his infant son around - hence the old promo shot from Casino Royale on the article, that makes his character history at the very least involve successfully passing selection for the Special Boat Service, successfully serving in the regiment for long enough to draw SIS’s attention and maintaining his physical fitness - occasional bing drinking not withstanding.

Why wouldn’t he look to his physical health? It’s literally what has kept him sharp enough to be the biggest swinging dick in England since Robin Hood.
 

Silvanus

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If the news actively associates Trump's comments with drinking bleach, and you remember that association, it is remembering what you were told. This is not that complicated.

The media actively associates Trump's comments with drinking bleach -> People think Trump told people to drink bleach

Did the media make that association? Yes, and you are well aware of it. Did people think that? Yes, that's how all this started. You understand the cause, you understand the effect, you're not even actually disputing the cause and effect relationship, your only point is "they didn't literally say that, so you told a lie" even though I never say they literally said that.
This is just as weak as all the rest. What exactly constitutes this "association" you're talking about? All we have is... the fact that a couple of articles talked about both phenomena: warning against drinking bleach, and also mentioning the President's suggestion to inject disinfectant. That's the entirety of the "association" here.

And... it's perfectly rational and reasonable to report those things together. They both relate to the broader phenomenon of people taking dangerous, potentially lethal non-cures.

I'm a little worried right now about your ability to process context. Not only can't you seem to see the implication putting a giant picture of bleach before talking about Trump's comments, you also don't seem to have understood at all why I said "perfect remembering". Agema attempted to say that people thought Trump said to drink bleach because they have "imperfect, human memories", suggesting someone just forgot what was said over time. My point about "perfect remembering" wasn't that people memorized the headlines perfectly, but that the idea of Trump telling people to drink bleach didn't happen after a long period to forget the details, it came out within days of that press conference. It's not a situation where people just forgot what was said over time, it's a situation where they accurately recalled what they believed when it happened. And I showed a multitude of things that would create that false narrative that were published within a week of his statement.
How shamelessly dishonest this is.

You've here (unsubtly) shifted "perfect remembering" to refer to the readers' own impression rather than the content itself. Which would mean you didn't make a factual claim about the media's reporting in that sentence, and leaves you free to continue blaming the media through accusations of insinuation and association rather than factual falsehood.

But that wasn't what you said originally. You said "perfect remembering of what they were told". That is categorically not just a claim that they remembered the impression they had. You claimed they perfectly remembered that the media told them Trump suggested drinking bleach.

Which is a categorical untruth.
 
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Ag3ma

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It's not a weird irony, it's a deliberate outcome on the part of the news. Put 2+2 together!
And this is where the conspiracy theory kicks in. President cack-handedly suggests misuse of bleach in public meeting; attention is drawn to misuse of bleach and warnings issued. This is the simplest and most boring of causes and effects.

But sprinkle some magic conspiracy dust, and completely reframe the issue to exculpate the president and attack the media. Woo-haa!

Tstorm's vision of the media said:
Dear BleachCo CEO

We understand that you may be very concerned about recent comments made by President Trump, and that you feel that it is important to let the public know about appropriate use of your product for their health. However we are unable to put out any articles publicising your advice because someone might think we could be implying the President wants people to drink bleach. I hope in turn that you can understand our position, and I'm sure you agree that a 121% increase in monthly bleach poisonings is a small price to pay to ensure no-one believes that President Trump thinks people should drink bleach.

Yours sincerely,

The Editor
 

Baffle

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I was all geared up to get on my soapbox about just how old “On Her Majesty’s Secret Service” was until I noticed the not inconsiderable detail of it being “His Majesty”, something I have a weird feeling is going to trip me up with British spy fiction.
Don't worry about it, despite all the shenanigans and spectacle of it all, and the wailing of 'it'll never be the same again' and people feeling like they've lost their grandma (who doesn't know they exist), most of us have forgotten she's dead.

Edit: We don't even really use cash any more to remind us.
 

Thaluikhain

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Don't worry about it, despite all the shenanigans and spectacle of it all, and the wailing of 'it'll never be the same again' and people feeling like they've lost their grandma (who doesn't know they exist), most of us have forgotten she's dead.
That would explain the news having to constantly tell people she was dead after she died. I thought it was in case they thought she was going to come back as some terrible undead monster and bring about the destruction of the UK, but they are managing that without her.
 

Silvanus

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That is how memory works. You remember things as you understood them.
🤦‍♂️

This is really what you're going with?

So, say someone read the sentence, "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit".

And six months later, when asked what the line was, they say the line was "In a hole in the wall there lived an Elf". Maybe they didn't just simply forget-- maybe they just weren't paying close attention, and that was the gist of what they took from it.

You would say it was fair and accurate to say that person "perfectly remembered the line". Would you? Not "perfectly remembered what they thought". That person "perfectly remembered the line".
 

tstorm823

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And this is where the conspiracy theory kicks in. President cack-handedly suggests misuse of bleach in public meeting; attention is drawn to misuse of bleach and warnings issued. This is the simplest and most boring of causes and effects.

But sprinkle some magic conspiracy dust, and completely reframe the issue to exculpate the president and attack the media. Woo-haa!
Again, people acting in their own self-interest independently is not a conspiracy.
Again, he didn't mention bleach.
Again, you understand perfectly well that media outlets feed people what they want to hear because it makes money.

You just refuse to admit that the media outlets you like did that.
So, say someone read the sentence, "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit".

And six months later, when asked what the line was, they say the line was "In a hole in the wall there lived an Elf". Maybe they didn't just simply forget-- maybe they just weren't paying close attention, and that was the gist of what they took from it.

You would say it was fair and accurate to say that person "perfectly remembered the line". Would you? Not "perfectly remembered what they thought". That person "perfectly remembered the line".
Let's make this analogy fully parallel:

Trump: "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit."
Media the next day: "Trump suggests hobbits live underground. It's important to remember that hobbits and elf-like creatures have a variety of living conditions."
Media the third day: "Elves do not live underground." With a giant picture of Trump's face underneath.

A casual observer reading the headlines: "Huh, guess Trump thinks elves live underground."
The same observer 3 years later: "Remember that time Trump thought elves lived underground?"

It's not an issue of memory. The message that was received was perfectly remembered.
 

Ag3ma

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Again, people acting in their own self-interest independently is not a conspiracy.
A conspiracy is a secret plan to harm someone or something. This is what you have accusing the media of, don't try to back out now.

Again, he didn't mention bleach.
Remember that whole pedantry thing? Who cares? Bleach, disinfectant, who the fuck cares? (Except a pedant, obviously.)

Again, you understand perfectly well that media outlets feed people what they want to hear because it makes money.

You just refuse to admit that the media outlets you like did that.
I think the media outlets I like do it all the time. I could point you to many examples.

I also think your claims are absurdly overblown and exist as nothing more than a feeble attempt to distract everyone from President Trump humiliating himself with grade A raw stupidity.
 

tstorm823

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A conspiracy is a secret plan to harm someone or something. This is what you have accusing the media of, don't try to back out now.
You cut the "by a group" out of your definition. Like, you wrote out almost the exact definition that pops up in google, but cut out the part I was telling you is important here.

Regardless, at no point in this conversation did I accuse the media of planning to harm someone. My complaint is that truth became collateral damage in the path of the media's own self-interest. They did what drew traffic even if it misled people. If the opposite were my argument, if I were to say their goal was misleading people, you might be able to land this accusation, but that was the means, not the ends.
Remember that whole pedantry thing? Who cares? Bleach, disinfectant, who the fuck cares? (Except a pedant, obviously.)
Apparently you care. You've already confirmed that you know how didn't say bleach, so going back to it now seems to indicate that distinction is important to you.
I think the media outlets I like do it all the time. I could point you to many examples.

I also think your claims are absurdly overblown and exist as nothing more than a feeble attempt to distract everyone from President Trump humiliating himself with grade A raw stupidity.
A) That doesn't explain you trying to act like other outlets haven't been sued for defamation in the other thread.
B) "I know media outlets do exactly what you're saying, but I can't accept that criticism if Trump is involved" is a pretty good illustration of how warped your views get when Trump is involved.
 

Absent

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The boring one
This forum is so trollable.
 

Silvanus

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Let's make this analogy fully parallel:

Trump: "In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit."
Media the next day: "Trump suggests hobbits live underground. It's important to remember that hobbits and elf-like creatures have a variety of living conditions."
Media the third day: "Elves do not live underground." With a giant picture of Trump's face underneath.

A casual observer reading the headlines: "Huh, guess Trump thinks elves live underground."
The same observer 3 years later: "Remember that time Trump thought elves lived underground?"

It's not an issue of memory. The message that was received was perfectly remembered.
In your analogy, it would be completely dishonest to say that person "perfectly remembered the report". You could say they remembered what they thought. You could not say they remembered the report perfectly-- that would be a lie.

You cannot say someone "perfectly remembered" something if they literally got it wrong. To pretend otherwise to avoid acknowledging an error is borderline embarrassing.

((I also notice you've made the analogy completely inapplicable by having your hypothetical Trump say something innocuous and true, whereas in reality he said something equally dangerous and wrong)).
 
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tstorm823

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You cannot say someone "perfectly remembered" something if they literally got it wrong. To pretend otherwise is utterly laughable, and it's borderline embarrassing for you to be taking that approach.
You can properly remember wrong information.
((I also notice you've made the analogy completely inapplicable by having your hypothetical Trump say something innocuous and true, whereas in reality he said something equally dangerous and wrong)).
I used the exact quote you did.
 

Adam Jensen

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And this is where the conspiracy theory kicks in. President cack-handedly suggests misuse of bleach in public meeting; attention is drawn to misuse of bleach and warnings issued. This is the simplest and most boring of causes and effects.

But sprinkle some magic conspiracy dust, and completely reframe the issue to exculpate the president and attack the media. Woo-haa!
This dude seems to be suggesting that the media shouldn't have warned people against doing what Trump had suggested. What kind of fucked up media would not warn people that drinking disinfectants could kill them? Especially since people literally started drinking disinfectants: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...bleach-as-a-coronavirus-cure/?sh=2fac13766748
 
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Ag3ma

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You cut the "by a group" out of your definition.
You are talking about media companies. These are organisations with lots of staff, so their activities necessarily involve groups of people.

Regardless, at no point in this conversation did I accuse the media of planning to harm someone. My complaint is that truth became collateral damage in the path of the media's own self-interest.
So your argument is that it was harming truth. I notice you cut the "or something" out of the definition of conspiracy. Even worse, your argument doesn't work anyway, because you're arguing an attack on Trump's reputation, and thus Trump, who is a someone.

Apparently you care. You've already confirmed that you know how didn't say bleach, so going back to it now seems to indicate that distinction is important to you.
Bleach is quicker to type/say, and if the distinction is unimportant...

A) That doesn't explain you trying to act like other outlets haven't been sued for defamation in the other thread.
That was addressed in that thread. Rehashing your feeble argument here doesn't make it any better.