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Thaluikhain

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Only a little less than for all the other Democratic and Republican Presidential candidates in recent memory; his major departure is that he's gauche.
Well, while it is true that the bar is set distressingly low, that doesn't mean he's not worse by quite some margin. But ok, being gauche is a large part of what makes him obvious.
 

Seanchaidh

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Well, while it is true that the bar is set distressingly low, that doesn't mean he's not worse by quite some margin. But ok, being gauche is a large part of what makes him obvious.
What makes the American electorate not have so much agency in this situation is that a national election is not a referendum on one particular candidate, nor a series of referendums on all the candidates. In either case, we'd tend to see lots of positions unfilled (indeed, if "no one" were a possible result, it would probably cause voters to raise their standards). Instead, we have media and private party political structures that do their utmost to make sure all the candidates regarded as 'real choices' are bad in the particular ways which are profitable to or protective of the capitalist ruling class, and "no one" is not allowed as an option; majority support is not required to fill any political office. So we end up with the absurd idea that the American electorate should have "learned its lesson" and voted for continued complicity in genocide and various other crimes in order to avoid the truly awful choice; the logic was already unsound, but 'israel' has made it obviously so. And so many of the people who think something along the lines of "the American electorate didn't learn its lesson about Donald Trump" actually think that the lesson was to vote for the arguably lesser genocide as well as browbeat anyone who dares to suggest that the "top two" choices were bad. That isn't how you build a durable coalition, it's how you maintain a pendulum swinging between two awful parties.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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While that is true, that Trump is a deeply terrible person and unfit to be in charge or anything isn't something that requires much analysis to recognise.
No, it's that he's a deeply terrible person and unfit to be in charge... according to our standards and morals. Not according to theirs.
 

Hades

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Yes and no.

What everyone believes is to some degree hostage to what they know. If we want high quality outputs in electoral decision-making, there needs to be high quality information provided to the electorate.

A large proportion of the electorate clearly have little interest in seeking out good quality information. That is undoubtedly an issue with voters themselves.

On the other hand, nor can we pretend that a lot of information available to them isn't poor quality. There is a staggering quantity of total garbage out there, and even the more reputable organisations can have serious shortcomings. I think a reputable major media outlet tends to be broadly accurate on some specifics it reports on, and yet at the same time rarely will it effectively explain any sort of complex wider picture. An example of this is the way they will send two talking heads from opposing sides to debate against each other without meaningful intervention: this often serves ostensible neutrality more than it serves greater public comprehension.
But this only works to a point and that point has been crossed ages ago. With the likes of Le Pen there might be some ambiguety but with Trump its always been clear as day. Even those that live under a rock must have watched the news at least ones, heard Trump speak at least once. And January 6 strikes me as outright impossible to miss.

Same with the freaks in his orbit. Kennedy wanting to destroy American health is essentially the only thing the layman would know of him.

Only a little less than for all the other Democratic and Republican Presidential candidates in recent memory; his major departure is that he's gauche.
I can't recall any Democratic candidate having done a coup against the US or loudly shouting they want to steal land from their allies.
 
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Hades

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So we end up with the absurd idea that the American electorate should have "learned its lesson" and voted for continued complicity in genocide and various other crimes in order to avoid the truly awful choice
And so many of the people who think something along the lines of "the American electorate didn't learn its lesson about Donald Trump" actually think that the lesson was to vote for the arguably lesser genocide as well as browbeat anyone who dares to suggest that the "top two" choices were bad
Because it objectively was. Voting for Trump merely to give the competition a bad time backfired on the electorate last time. You got an extremely corrupt president who maliciously abandoned the public to a pandemic and did a coup. It all wouldn't have happened had the alternative won.

What if there's a new pandemic? The public knew Trump would be less than useless if that happened under his watch again. And they....found that a point in his favor? Its nonsense. Given Jan 6 the public also knowingly takes the risk democracy will fall next time the Republicans lose and are able to go do a coup to fix it. This all just isn't a risk with the alternative

Yeah okay. Saving Gaza wasn't on the ballot. But saving everything else was. Where the people of Michigan helped by unleashing Trump and Ice on them? Was giving Bibi his prefered president really so important as to abandon Michigan? And of the people starving because Trump had Musk take away their aid? Is their starvation more bearable just because Bibi's opponents....gave him everything he wanted and more and pretended they were making a principled stance? Is the filth trying to steal Greenland somehow justified because the one NOT wanting to betray us didn't have the proper views on Gaza?
 
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Agema

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While that is true, that Trump is a deeply terrible person and unfit to be in charge or anything isn't something that requires much analysis to recognise.
To us, maybe. But as the sort of people who debate in Current Affairs internet boards, we are above averagely tuned in to current affairs. Millions of people are accessing no meaningful news at all, or are completely reliant on very limited and very low quality news sources. Trump et al can complain about CNN all they like, but I'm confident Fox is worse.

For instance, there is plentiful evidence Trump is using the presidency to enrich himself. But I am willing to bet you that whole swathes of right-wing media aren't even mentioning his dubious get rich schemes, never mind querying whether they're ethical. And where things are unavoidable, they spread a lot of interference. Convicted felon? Not really, it was just a biased New York court. Set a mob of rioters on Congress? Congressional Republicans put a lot of effort into clearing him of any blame.
 
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Hades

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Seems the rich are doing their favorite act of national sabotage again. When the left gets too big, or merely stops being too small the upper class starts widely sabotaging the country by delivering it into fascism just to ''save'' it from the left. Happened in Germany, in the US and now Britain.

Because guess who's getting the big donations this campaign season. Its the far right. And just in time since the UK now (theoretically) has a left wing government and a rising Green party.

Its like the rich never learn. Its so stupid. At least with the Nazi's they had the excuse of the Soviets literally going to rob blind or murder them all if their puppets took over. But liberal democracies are a success story even by their own demented standards. Its the system that got them so obscenely wealthy in the first place. And now they want to tear it all down just to protect themselves from a downright minuscule amount of taxes?
 

Trunkage

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To us, maybe. But as the sort of people who debate in Current Affairs internet boards, we are above averagely tuned in to current affairs. Millions of people are accessing no meaningful news at all, or are completely reliant on very limited and very low quality news sources. Trump et al can complain about CNN all they like, but I'm confident Fox is worse.

For instance, there is plentiful evidence Trump is using the presidency to enrich himself. But I am willing to bet you that whole swathes of right-wing media aren't even mentioning his dubious get rich schemes, never mind querying whether they're ethical. And where things are unavoidable, they spread a lot of interference. Convicted felon? Not really, it was just a biased New York court. Set a mob of rioters on Congress? Congressional Republicans put a lot of effort into clearing him of any blame.
It's not just that. There are a bunch of people on this forum that say every politician is as bad as Trump. If they are all as bad, then there is no problem voting for Trump. It's the black and white morality that Trump can exploit. I think I've been mistaken in an assumption I've had over the years about how the Nazis were voted in. I always assumed they won because right-wingers want hierarchy and Nazis are great at hierarchy. But it's more than that. The Weimar Republic was a truly terrible government. I could imagine that a bunch of lefties called them just as evil as Hitler which Hitler could explot to get power.

As to Trump, you gotta understand... Trump thinks that the US Treasury is his - all of the money is his money. He just fired Noem for getting her beak wet, and that is truly offensive to Trump. And I don't think he is the only one thinking that. This is not him embezzling money. He just claimed it
 
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Hades

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So it seems Orban is escalating conflict with Ukraine to stat in power, not helped by Zelensky foolishly threatening Orban and playing right in his hand. It culminated to the extend Hungary has kidnapped Ukranian bank employees.

Its probably going to earn that traitor another win but I'm confused as to why such an extremely pro Russian course would be rewarded. Russia occupied and terrorized Hungary for decades so you'd think the public would be against Russia on principle alone.

So I'll guess America and Russia will keep being able to use that traitor to try and subjugate Europe.
 

Satinavian

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Its probably going to earn that traitor another win
Not sure.

But this thing is a hot topic. Cheap Russian oil and gas is the only benefit Hungary gets from being Russia-friendly. If that is not a thing anymore, all the opportunists start asking for ditching Russia. If the gas goes away, the greatest achievement Orbans for Hungary also goes away.

Edit : Just read about the current escalation. Hungary issueing a transit embary and capturing some interbank money transfer while Ukraine calles that hostage taking and highway robbery.

Unexpected, i must say.
 
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Agema

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It's not just that. There are a bunch of people on this forum that say every politician is as bad as Trump.
Ah yes, the scorched earth strategy of politics: if our side can't win the praise, no-one can.

The "but both sides..." drivel is a form of this. It's a type of nihilism, which merely leads to the conclusion that nothing happens [and we may as well all give up]. Sure some of these losers will talk about third choices and independents and shit to pretend they're not just wasting everyone's time, but it's funny how none of them will ever get off their arses to make any of them happen. They just want to posture like they're clever.
 

Hades

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Vote for the lesser genocide is nihilism.
Is it? A vote against Trump likely stems from a belief that the worst of the worst can still be prevented, while moral posturing about the dems secretly being just as bad likely stems from the belief that all is already lost and that the worst of the worst will come to pass anyway.
 

Seanchaidh

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Is it? A vote against Trump likely stems from a belief that the worst of the worst can still be prevented, while moral posturing about the dems secretly being just as bad likely stems from the belief that all is already lost and that the worst of the worst will come to pass anyway.
Vote Blue No Matter Who is obviously nihilism. Vote for the lesser genocide, though this is more of a synthetic judgment than an analytical truth, is also nihilism. The judgment part is thinking genocide is wrong.
 
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Silvanus

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Oh noes meanwhile...
Your broad point about the prohibitive cost of academic material is valid, but google's 'AI overview' is worth fuck all and people should stop paying it a moment's attention.
 
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Hades

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