Game of Thrones Author Admits Pressure to Finish Books Affect Him
- Thread starter Alex Co
- Start date
Honestly, it should not take this long. I have read many quality novels from many quality authors who get a book out once a year or once every 2 years.
Everybody who works a normal job has deadlines they need to meet. It's a requirement of working. I would call GRRM lazy if days or weeks went by without him writing a single word in his book. His occupation is author, his task includes writing. If he isn't writing 3-5 days a week then he isn't doing his job.
Everybody who works a normal job has deadlines they need to meet. It's a requirement of working. I would call GRRM lazy if days or weeks went by without him writing a single word in his book. His occupation is author, his task includes writing. If he isn't writing 3-5 days a week then he isn't doing his job.
I keep saying that fans is some of the worst kinds of people you can talk to online because a lot of them can be very harsh and inconsiderate.
That's HBO's own damn fault for making the show before the books were done. There were five years between ASOS and AFFC, and six years between AFFC and ADWD. They knew what they were getting into and did it anyway. It's on their heads.Sniper Team 4 said:
The conspiracy theory that I think has any traction, is that Martin doesn't know how to finish the story. He has given HBO the outline of how the series will finish, but he himself doesn't know how it will be done. Remember a while ago he stepped out of production on the Series 5? He is waiting to see what they do, so he can incorporate elements of the show in to the books.
Well, mr Sanderson is a high quality writter, Mistborn blows out of the water game of thrones as far as I'm concerned.gim73 said:
That would be correct if he wasn't choking on royalties right now because everybody and his mother wants to use the license, he literally gets filthy rich by sitting on a chair, so lets not make it sound like the poor bloke is currently a hardliving writer with a dream.Ranorak said:
The way that I see this is that if I started telling people a story, and then stopped part way through and made them wait years for the next installment I'd expect my audience to kind of pissed off, assuming that they were enjoying my story.
There are many people that seem to have become emotionally invested in the story that Martin is telling. This is a good thing, as it is exactly what I would have thought that a good story is supposed to do. There is a side effect to this, however. Rightly or wrongly, many of them are going to feel let down by the lengthy delays we are seeing here, regardless of how good the reasons for these delays are.
I can accept the argument that Martin doesn't actually have any obligation to his fans at all, but he still needs to live with the consequences of his actions. I'm not suggesting that he's deliberately dragging his feet, or that he isn't working on completing the story, but given the way people seem to have connected to it the reaction he is getting is the one that I would have expected.
Is this fair? No, but neither is it fair to expect your audience to ignore their emotional responses when that is exactly what you are trying to produce. 'Emotional responses' is probably not the right phrase, but I can't think of a better way of putting it.
There are many people that seem to have become emotionally invested in the story that Martin is telling. This is a good thing, as it is exactly what I would have thought that a good story is supposed to do. There is a side effect to this, however. Rightly or wrongly, many of them are going to feel let down by the lengthy delays we are seeing here, regardless of how good the reasons for these delays are.
I can accept the argument that Martin doesn't actually have any obligation to his fans at all, but he still needs to live with the consequences of his actions. I'm not suggesting that he's deliberately dragging his feet, or that he isn't working on completing the story, but given the way people seem to have connected to it the reaction he is getting is the one that I would have expected.
Is this fair? No, but neither is it fair to expect your audience to ignore their emotional responses when that is exactly what you are trying to produce. 'Emotional responses' is probably not the right phrase, but I can't think of a better way of putting it.
I've always been less worried about the impatience of fans on GRRM than I have that exerted by publishers and, perhaps most of all, HBO. Fans, ranging from those with wild conspiracy theories to legitimate excitement to follow the story to its conclusion, are much more mundane than publishing empires and media behemoths that have some degree of control thanks to a legal partnership in one manner or another.
While I enjoy the HBO series, I feel the books are more enjoyable and far more expansive; I enjoy all the minutia and world building as much as I do the main plot points. I want the remaining story in the ASOIAF saga to come onto the page purely, exactly, what and how GRRM wants to tell it, uncompromising. If this means there will be more than 2 books to come, so be it! If this means it will take a few more years each, fine. If it turns out it takes 4 more novels of 2500 pages each to complete the saga, I'll be buying them! I don't want the story abridged or truncated in any way, especially at the behest of external influences.
I worry that publishers for instance will exert pressure as they did before with Volume 4 and 5, which should have been a single book if it wasn't for claims it would have been too long and wouldn't make the bean-counters happy on the shelf. Likewise, if they pressure for him to finish up in a total of exactly 7 books, combined with a page-number restriction, this will mean a shorter story. I should hope that by now GRRM's publishers should know that he's going to produce profitable gold no matter what and when he arrives with it, but I've read about the industry's foibles and hope they aren't going to pressure GRRM and end up with a lesser vision of the saga's end because of it.
HBO however is by far my biggest worry. This mammoth media empire swings money around and exerts control over the property in many ways. For instance, merchandising. For instance, before the TV show, GRRM's website sold a limited amount of official Westeros gear, including tshirts printed with coats-of-arms of Westeros' most prominent nobility. These are rare today (and fetch a considerable ebay price), because after the partnership with HBO, all these shirts become completely unavailable! Now, there is certainly some argument about the art quality between the book-era and HBO-era Westeros merch, but the HBO items are hobbled with marketing-drivel text, such as "HBO's Game of Thrones" being printed visibly on the shirts, and the house name being printed prominently nearby (ie Grayjoy, Stark etc..) which isn't done on the old versions. Now personally, I hate "geek culture merchandise" that combines an "in-universe" element with some external 'advertising talk", as clearly done with the HBO GoT gear. With this much control over merchandise for instance, I can figure they could put some pressure on GRRM regarding the books in a variety of ways. From "Hurry up and finish, we have a couple more seasons on TV and that's it. We want your final books to be on shelves around or before we end our show's run to maximize buzz", to "We don't want you coming up with a significantly different ending for the books or anything", there are many reasons HBO's desires could clash with GRRM writing exactly the story he wants.
Resisting the cries of fans who breach rudeness is one thing, and I'm glad GRRM will be doing so, but I hope he also has balls of Valyrian steel to resist the attempts of publishers or HBO to limit his vision, the time frame of his work, or anything else that would compromise the quality of the story's remainder. I and many other fans will continue to hope that when ASOIAF finally comes to a close, it will be without any limit and perfectly what the author intended.
While I enjoy the HBO series, I feel the books are more enjoyable and far more expansive; I enjoy all the minutia and world building as much as I do the main plot points. I want the remaining story in the ASOIAF saga to come onto the page purely, exactly, what and how GRRM wants to tell it, uncompromising. If this means there will be more than 2 books to come, so be it! If this means it will take a few more years each, fine. If it turns out it takes 4 more novels of 2500 pages each to complete the saga, I'll be buying them! I don't want the story abridged or truncated in any way, especially at the behest of external influences.
I worry that publishers for instance will exert pressure as they did before with Volume 4 and 5, which should have been a single book if it wasn't for claims it would have been too long and wouldn't make the bean-counters happy on the shelf. Likewise, if they pressure for him to finish up in a total of exactly 7 books, combined with a page-number restriction, this will mean a shorter story. I should hope that by now GRRM's publishers should know that he's going to produce profitable gold no matter what and when he arrives with it, but I've read about the industry's foibles and hope they aren't going to pressure GRRM and end up with a lesser vision of the saga's end because of it.
HBO however is by far my biggest worry. This mammoth media empire swings money around and exerts control over the property in many ways. For instance, merchandising. For instance, before the TV show, GRRM's website sold a limited amount of official Westeros gear, including tshirts printed with coats-of-arms of Westeros' most prominent nobility. These are rare today (and fetch a considerable ebay price), because after the partnership with HBO, all these shirts become completely unavailable! Now, there is certainly some argument about the art quality between the book-era and HBO-era Westeros merch, but the HBO items are hobbled with marketing-drivel text, such as "HBO's Game of Thrones" being printed visibly on the shirts, and the house name being printed prominently nearby (ie Grayjoy, Stark etc..) which isn't done on the old versions. Now personally, I hate "geek culture merchandise" that combines an "in-universe" element with some external 'advertising talk", as clearly done with the HBO GoT gear. With this much control over merchandise for instance, I can figure they could put some pressure on GRRM regarding the books in a variety of ways. From "Hurry up and finish, we have a couple more seasons on TV and that's it. We want your final books to be on shelves around or before we end our show's run to maximize buzz", to "We don't want you coming up with a significantly different ending for the books or anything", there are many reasons HBO's desires could clash with GRRM writing exactly the story he wants.
Resisting the cries of fans who breach rudeness is one thing, and I'm glad GRRM will be doing so, but I hope he also has balls of Valyrian steel to resist the attempts of publishers or HBO to limit his vision, the time frame of his work, or anything else that would compromise the quality of the story's remainder. I and many other fans will continue to hope that when ASOIAF finally comes to a close, it will be without any limit and perfectly what the author intended.
Were it me, and I can be a cynical asshole when pushed by people who think I owe them anything, I would toss out some absolutely nerd-rage inducing crap whose writing style is a piss-poor emulation of the Twilight series, effectively killing off the entire book series followed by a hasty retirement and hermit life. In essence, the final "character" being killed would be the series itself... Actually that may happen anyway if people keep pestering GRRM.
I think Martin came up with Song of Ice and Fire (It isn't Game of Thrones) for himself as much as fans. I also almost wish that the books hadn't become famous before he finished them because fans have gone through those books with a fine tooth comb many times over and every little bit of foreshadowing that Martin has set up to pay off later (Particularly one really big one involving the north) has been discovered by snoops. Than there is the aspect of impossible expectations that fans. Plus there is the fact that martin has never been very consistant in publishing unlike say Rowling or Stephen King who are writing fiends and as famous as him in the public eye. I can understand why both people are frustrated but I don't accept the argument that Martin has no obligation to fans to get his books out. Beyond HBO itself I think Martin would be unjustifiable if he said tomorrow that he was done with the series. Once fandom reaches a certain critical mass where there are many other careers being made or destroyed by if Martin continues to gets his books out as well as the amount of hours people have poured into the books themselves it becomes a moral obligation to end the series fulfill his unspoken promise that every author makes when they start a book series. I mean movies don't just end in the 2nd act because the director couldn't work it out how to continue it and since no single book of GoT is a complete story that's the equivalent.
What Indomitable Sam said. If you have a publishing contract, it has deadlines. Lesser authors can and have been sued over missed deadlines, particularly where they've been paid an advance. Do you think he's the only one who matters here? The publishing house has to jiggle its budget based on what it expects to bring to market-- marketing/advertising aren't free and they can only recoup those costs if there's a book coming out of the printers at the proper time. HBO has a series that costs more to produce than the GDP of a small country on the line-- if they decide to cut bait and go forward with their own plot resolution and then GRRM starts churning out books, that's a problem. If they wait based on his overestimations of his own deliverables and he doesn't start producing, that's an even bigger problem. This trickles down, too. HBO takes a chance on very original, high-concept shows that networks won't touch because they've got big-hit moneymakers that allow them to finance it. Bestselling novels allow publishing houses to take more chances on might-be new authors. If "GoT" suddenly slips because of this, that means other shows that aren't greenlit because the budget isn't there. If the publishing house allocates $amt for marketing ASIOAF and ASIOAF doesn't come out, that's money they could have spent on other books whose authors would have made their deadlines and which might have made some money.Ranorak said:
I didn't say he had an obligation to me, or to fans. But he does have an obligation to his publisher and to HBO, he didn't have to agree to sell his rights to the HBO series-- he agreed knowing that if it was a hit he'd be expected to speed it up, he said yes, and now he's whining about pressure. He's being massively unprofessional and I have no sympathy for him.
So I am a big fan of Song of Ice and Fire. And yet when I see supposed "fans" telling 65-year old person to do his job, while implicitly implying he is not allowed to croak until he does (after which, who cares), I feel so sick of these people that I actually hope that the series will cut of short for whatever reason. Just so they get their bloody comeuppance, I'd be ready to bear with not seeing the end.
I know that in the U.S. slavery is still very much alive, but in most civilized countries 65 is already the age of retirement. Sure, some people stay sprinkly well into their 70's, but static desktop work, with all the implications to the health of the worker? Yeah unless you exercise routinely, and a lot, that's about the limit for most people. And Martin isn't really picture of health to begin with.
I know that in the U.S. slavery is still very much alive, but in most civilized countries 65 is already the age of retirement. Sure, some people stay sprinkly well into their 70's, but static desktop work, with all the implications to the health of the worker? Yeah unless you exercise routinely, and a lot, that's about the limit for most people. And Martin isn't really picture of health to begin with.
Look, I'll be honest in saying I have at times bitched about the series not coming out quickly and do hope Martin doesn't die before it's finished. Is it selfish? Yeah, it is but I think any fan of any series they enjoy immensely would think the same thing. Besides, whole reason people are so scared is because of what happened with Robert Jordan and the Wheel of Time series which suffered from a slow release and the authors death before said series was done.kuolonen said:
And trust me, I'm a Berserk fan...I know what it's like to suffer through a very slow release schedule and being left wandering what the hell the author is doing. Which is why I do sort of like Martin because, hey, at-least he tells us that shit comes up and that the book is still a ways off: If I get updated with what the hell is happening on the authors end, I tend to be more patient. Again, this is why Berserk is so frustrating as we have next to no idea what's with the delays with it.
People do have every right to be concerned, but last I checked martin didn't have any major health problems and given the release gap between books is only getting bigger the fear is a justified one. That said...given he has given HBO the ending and an outline of the series, i don't think we should be too worried about the series dying with him or anything.
Still, it is a bit spiteful to wish the series to come to a sudden close just because of people getting fearful of it not ending when the ending is so close and wanting to see more because they love it. (Unless you're talking about the guys that mail Martin with Death threats and the like and threaten him to hurry up...seriously, fuck those guys. They're giving us a bad name.)
I admit I can see both sides of this issue: It's definitely not an unfounded fear and given it's a quality series, I can understand the impatient desire to see more of it especially seeing as the release gap has increased between books. HOWEVER, given Martin has sort of kept us updated on stuff and he has also given HBO the ending i do think people should lay off him at-least a bit with asking for the next books release date and progress. Plus, as I mentioned before, fuck those guys that outright threaten him to finish it because they're assholes. As long as he tells me when "A cookbook of Ice and Fire" is released, I'll be a happy man xD
Also, on the subject of Martin's health, can someone give me a definitive answer: One party says he's doing fine and has no problems, now you mention he isn't quite in a good bill of health as we all thought. Which is it? I am confused about this.
Well, I remember a blog post of his from long ago (well before the TV-show began airing) where talked about how he feels some of his fans only want him to worked on Dance and nothing else. Hell, there was even a blog from two disgruntled fans dedicated to complaining about how long it took (it was called "Finish the Book, George" I think)8bitOwl said:
Yeah, fellow Berserk fan here. I just forget about the whole series for a whole year and have an automated reminder to check it annually to read the 2-3 new chapters...Infernai said:
Yes, that sentiment is directed at the people you mentioned, the entitled brats that they are.
As for the health thing, just looking at two factors should be sufficient: He is bit on the heavy side and he has been doing a desk job since he was 21. I could be wrong, but he does not seem to be the type to go on morning jogs and such. All of this will factor into problems as you age. I am not saying I that he will keel over tomorrow, but I do think that by now he is in the state that means he can no longer work as much as people less than 65 years old. Disclaimer: This is speculation on my part. He could be just lazy, but I do know people over 65, and the ones who had been doing a job that doesn't involve sitting in front of a desk 8 hours a day always seem to be more energetic, mind & body.
Is it his fault for letting himself get to that point? Kind of yes. Will trying to whip him into work help? Definitely no. Most likely opposite. If he dies from stress I am blaming all of you.