Game of Thrones - I give up

[axlryder]

So many works of fiction create new and exciting worlds that work to the same morality that we live by but Westeros has it's own morality that only two characters completely get (Cersei and Little Finger) and two others are learning it fast (Arya and Daenerys). The morality of pragmatism; to do whatever is required to fulfil ones goals.

You're not wrong. pragmatism is everything in the GOT universe, it's why guys like Tywin (who is basically pragmatism incarnate) climb so high. Arya's learning it, but Dany, not so much. She had her army, and the city she was seizing offered her free money and ships just to leave them alone. The pragmatic choice was to take their offer, since it was the quickest route to her goal (I.E. westeros) with the smallest sacrifice of manpower. The fact that she's so hellbent on her abolition crusade shows that she's rather committed to traditional morality. to the point that she lacks focus, and becomes a bit boring to follow, for me.

I kind of understand. GRRM warns not to get too attached to characters, but it's the characters that move the story, and there are some good ones. Never much cared for the Starks, too straightforward. I like more nuanced and complex characters. Still, the red wedding was a stomach ache. if the starks were what you were reading the story for, and Sansa or Arya aren't enough to keep you going, it's understandable you'd want to stop.

Me, I know Tyrion and Jaime are both doomed, but until they die, I'll be here watching/reading.

I agree that pragmatism is a strong theme, but I think another strong theme is how people who have unrealistic expectations of the world around them are quick to get killed or abused. You can take the honorable or altruistic road, but if you're expecting others to do the same when you have no good reason to, or are making unrealistic sacrifices, or are oblivious to danger, you'll likely end up dead.

Also, does anyone really LIKE Sansa at this point in the show? I mean, I look forward to watching her blossom as a character, but right now her entire character arc has been her gradual disillusionment and the erosion of her innocence.

 

[Uszi]

I don't understand how folks take Ned's truncation in stride, and want to continue, but then get want to quit over Rob. Ned was a better character, and died only because he was so good. His death is far more shocking and appalling. Rob, on the other hand, sowed the seeds of his own defeat. He, himself, destroyed the relationships with the Freys, failed to maintain discipline in his army, and put idealism before politics in the execution of Rickard Karstark. Rob died for doing the wrong things, unlike Ned who died for doing the right ones. The people who've been on since book one or season one and want to leave now confuse me.

I guess if you just couldn't handle the imagery and want to bail, then fine, I get that. I have a friend who refuses to watch because the incest (Cersei/Jaime, Viserys/Dani) made her so uncomfortable that she refuses to give the show a second chance. Okay! I can't argue with that. And I could understand how pregnant women getting stabbed and women getting their throats slit might just be too much for someone to continue on with the show. Okay!

Regardless: The rest of book three delivers enough catharsis to make you eventually get over the Red Wedding. It's worth going back. Tyrion has some real badass moments, there's some good fights, big battles.

And no more boring Rob or shitty Caitlyn digging their own graves.

 

[LAGG]

Also, does anyone really LIKE Sansa at this point in the show? I mean, I look forward to watching her blossom as a character, but right now her entire character arc has been her gradual disillusionment and the erosion of her innocence.

Yes, Sansa and everything around her is very boring. Or it's King Landing that's all about little intrigues and gossip and she just happens to be in there.

 

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Also, does anyone really LIKE Sansa at this point in the show? I mean, I look forward to watching her blossom as a character, but right now her entire character arc has been her gradual disillusionment and the erosion of her innocence.

Yes, Sansa and everything around her is very boring. Or it's King Landing that's all about little intrigues and gossip and she just happens to be in there.

Well in many ways the character arcs of the younger Stark children is about the erosion of their innocence. You look at Sansa at the very beginning of the story, she was a prissy, kind of obnoxious girl who was a little too into the idea of being swept off her feet by the beautiful knight (or in her case prince) and living a living a dream life with him. But then her father is arrested and everything falls a part from there. Truthfully I've found her more interesting in both the series and the novels after she begun to suffer abuse at Joffrey's hands. She does get more interesting in latest books.

And despite the loss of Robb there is still Jon, Bran and Arya who have their own stories they're still going through. Personally I found those three and Ned to be the most interesting of the Stark family.

Plus as others have point out while the Starks have taken another grievous blow it is not the end of them and soon the Lannisters will start to get their punishments. So to those that are thinking of leaving Game of Thrones over the Red Wedding, don't. Yes there isn't much in the way of big 'YES!' for the good guys in the next episode or the next season but it will start to get better. It is a slow burning story after all.

Besides we still have a Purple Wedding to get to. It will be next season but it will be worth it. And just as I cheered when I read I will cheer when I see it.

 

[LAGG]

Also, does anyone really LIKE Sansa at this point in the show? I mean, I look forward to watching her blossom as a character, but right now her entire character arc has been her gradual disillusionment and the erosion of her innocence.

Yes, Sansa and everything around her is very boring. Or it's King Landing that's all about little intrigues and gossip and she just happens to be in there.

Well in many ways the character arcs of the younger Stark children is about the erosion of their innocence. You look at Sansa at the very beginning of the story, she was a prissy, kind of obnoxious girl who was a little too into the idea of being swept off her feet by the beautiful knight (or in her case prince) and living a living a dream life with him. But then her father is arrested and everything falls a part from there. Truthfully I've found her more interesting in both the series and the novels after she begun to suffer abuse at Joffrey's hands. She does get more interesting in latest books.

And despite the loss of Robb there is still Jon, Bran and Arya who have their own stories they're still going through. Personally I found those three and Ned to be the most interesting of the Stark family.

Plus as others have point out while the Starks have taken another grievous blow it is not the end of them and soon the Lannisters will start to get their punishments. So to those that are thinking of leaving Game of Thrones over the Red Wedding, don't. Yes there isn't much in the way of big 'YES!' for the good guys in the next episode or the next season but it will start to get better. It is a slow burning story after all.

Besides we still have a Purple Wedding to get to. It will be next season but it will be worth it. And just as I cheered when I read I will cheer when I see it.

Yes, Arya and Tyrion are the only characters I liked through the whole first season, and in the first two episodes I hated the series because it was just a lot of people doing a lot of idiotic stuff for the sake of creating drama. But Arya was always true to herself and smart. And Tyrion because he actually uses his brain and see's things from a logical standpoint while almost everybody else was crying over their first world problems up until Ned gets imprisoned.

 

[AkatsukiLeader13]

If you like Arya you should see her in the latest books, if you haven't read it of course. She gets involved into something... interesting. It almost makes me wish the Purple Wedding didn't happen, almost. Still what's happening to her in those books does have me craving to see what happens next to her.

 

[Eggsnham]

I have yet to actually see any of the season 3 episodes, but thanks to the power of the internet and my burning curiosity, I now know what the issue is.

Granted, I can't help but feel that OP is overreacting just a little bit. I mean, did you really expect something like GoT to just suddenly be all fairytale happily-ever-after?

Spoiler: After they...

Killed off Ed Stark in season 1's conclusion, I could tell that this was not a show in which one should expect everything to be fully pleasant... or fully unpleasant for that matter. It's incredibly satisfying to see a horrible, ass-bag of a character *cough*Viserys*cough* get killed off >

 

[AkatsukiLeader13]

Well to be fair compared to other characters he was more stupid and oblivious than anything else.

Spoiler: After all...

But if you think his dead was pleasing, just wait until season 4. You won't be disappointed.

 

[Mr Companion]

Fair enough,
But you cannot have joy without sorrow just as a coin must have two faces.
Maybe im just cynical like that having gone through plenty of real physical and emotional suffering, but I find a story without lots of darkness and fear becomes kind of empty and meaningless. I haven't read the books but in Game of Thrones there is still a chance for things to get better considering the following characters are still alive.
Bran: Who could use his mental abilities to do... something or other.
Aria: Who could take up lessons in being a faceless killer and cherry pick all the bastards from the kingdoms.
Denaris: Who could could burn the seven kingdoms to the ground for all I care, f**ked up place that it is.
Tyrion: Who could scheme his way to the top, we know he could be a good ruler.
Varys: Is one of the most powerful men in kings landing and serves the good of the realm.
Jon Snow: Who could be very stoic at everybody.
Sam: ???
Hodor: Could turn out to be the true heir to the throne and become ruler of the seven kingdoms.
White Walkers: Could shank Joffery then leave his corpse because even they hate him too much to resurrect him.
Onion Knight: Could be Stannis's good conscience and lead him to a better tomorrow.
The Hound: Seems to have the best intentions at heart.

In any case in real life good doesn't always win, in fact it often fails. Thus we become thankful for the times good succeeds and learn to accept sorrow, or even to thrive off it. If you stay down when you are knocked down you wont spend much time standing up.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Someone's probably already posted this but I'm too lazy to search:
It's okay though. Not everyone can handle having main characters being killed off, especially if they are their favourites.
This video may make you happier. It put a smile on my face. Arya trolling.
VIDEO CONTAINS SPOILERS FROM THE EPISODE:
If that didn't help, good luck in your future viewing/reading of other things.

 

[Dwarfman]

Snip

I have little sympathy for Rob Stark. If Rob wanted to turn his back on the deal he made with The Freys then that's his problem. When playing the Game of Thrones one should always be wary of the consequenses of ones actions.

 

[Altorin]

Robb Stark was a guppy who spat on the honor of the Frey house, a man his mother had warned him of on many occasions. He stole the title of queen of the north from a family who earned it in good faith.

The truth is, death is never pretty. Robb Stark should have known better then to have ever shown his face at the Twins ever again.

When the hammer dropped I was glad that it finished. I only wish they made a better Catelyn Stark mannequin.

 

[Vrach]

I get you OP. Watching it last night (even though I saw it coming a MILE away the second the episode started), I actually felt sick and scared as shit watching the scene. I still feel it this morning, it was a really "oh shit" moment. But you know what? I admire the author. This isn't your Harry Potter "good guys can die too". This is an actual story and it feels so much more real because of it. It's why it evoked such a strong emotional reaction from me and that's nothing short of a good thing, even though the reaction was fear and sickness.

That said, on the "bright" side, things aren't over yet. Daenerys is still alive and kicking and while I feel she has a bit of a "I was born to be a goddess among men" syndrome, she's very much a good guy (or rather, gal). I admire the way she approaches things (she's real, but still striving for the greater good) and I look forward to the day she starts sacking Lannister lands (mind you, no spoilers, I haven't read the book, just a guess on what's coming). She also has that "immunity to death" thing going on, at least for a while longer, considering a whole storyline depends on her and her alone (very much unlike the Starks, who have plenty of characters in their family).

Spoiler: Spoilers, no further than where the GoT show got so far though, nothing from the books ahead

There's also a number of Starks left, which leaves options for their storyline. Bran could turn out to be very interesting with the Warg (Worg?) thing and I'm hoping Arya becomes one of the Faceless Men and kicks some arse (there's certainly a lot hinting that way). Rickon is also alive, so he might have a part, though I haven't much interest so far for him and Sansa (I'm sure there'll be something interesting about them, but for now, he's just a kid with nothing special about him and she's just a Stark at King's Landing being the Lannister whipping girl).

 

[80sboy]

Meh...felt that way about lost after the end of season 2. Of course in Lost they killed off characters just for the sake of getting an emotional reaction and not serving any meaning to the overall story. GoT doesn't do that.

 

[DasDestroyer]

I was expecting something bad from the start of the episode, but I wasn't expecting anything close to what happened. But even if all of the Starks had died, I would still continue watching it because of how interesting the world is. The real question then would be how much of a series could they make out of Daenerys' campaign for the Iron Throne. And there's still a ton of Starks left - Jon, Theon, Sansa, Arya, Brendon and what's-his-face, the youngest kid who's with the wildling chick now.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

A lot of the people I see saying they love Game of Thrones because of how edgy and grim-dark it is are the same people I often see complaining about how much they dislike modern games, super-hero films, etc because those things are edgy and grim-dark.

Game of Thrones isn't what I would describe as "grimdark" or nihilistic. Nor would I describe it as "edgy", which seems to be a popular slam term aimed at darker fare that is perceived as pretentious. Martin very deliberately modeled Westeros after medieval Europe, knitting historical realism with high fantasy. He's taken liberally from real events, most particularly the War of the Roses. The Red Wedding itself was modeled after the infamous "Black Dinner" in 1440. He strives for shade of grey characters, but there are clear noble rooting interests. This is no black/grey world like you'd get with Abercrombie or Lynch, it's just shaded a bit more ambiguously than traditional high fantasy. Most of the "villains" have clear motives that are human and...if not always relatable, at least understandable. The series gained most of its notoriety through Martin's famed (or at least perceived) indifference when it comes to the lives of his main characters, but through 5 massive volumes only three POV characters have died...one has returned (albeit in greatly altered fashion), and one's "death" remains highly speculative. There is a high body count amongst "named" characters in the series, but given the series is set during a massive civil war and a pending supernatural invasion a high death count should not be considered unnecessarily grim or even particularly unusual.

That's not to say people can't find it too dark for their tastes. Often an accumulation of real life stress and/or tragedy can make it very difficult to suffer through dramatic fiction that is fraught with stress and tragedy of its own. I don't begrudge anyone that.

 

[Sexy Devil]

Yeah, that scene was brutal. I knew it was coming and it was still hard to watch. I'm far too obsessed with the show to stop here though!

I wonder how many animals were skinned alive to provide for the fur used in that show. Entertainment > Life

I really can't resist adding insult to injury so I'm just going to leave this here:


That's an actual stag he's skinning.

 

[Vigormortis]

Game of Thrones isn't what I would describe as "grimdark" or nihilistic. Nor would I describe it as "edgy", which seems to be a popular slam term aimed at darker fare that is perceived as pretentious. Martin very deliberately modeled Westeros after medieval Europe, knitting historical realism with high fantasy. He's taken liberally from real events, most particularly the War of the Roses. The Red Wedding itself was modeled after the infamous "Black Dinner" in 1440. He strives for shade of grey characters, but there are clear noble rooting interests. This is no black/grey world like you'd get with Abercrombie or Lynch, it's just shaded a bit more ambiguously than traditional high fantasy. Most of the "villains" have clear motives that are human and...if not always relatable, at least understandable. The series gained most of its notoriety through Martin's famed (or at least perceived) indifference when it comes to the lives of his main characters, but through 5 massive volumes only three POV characters have died...one has returned (albeit in greatly altered fashion), and one's "death" remains highly speculative. There is a high body count amongst "named" characters in the series, but given the series is set during a massive civil war and a pending supernatural invasion a high death count should not be considered unnecessarily grim or even particularly unusual.

That's not to say people can't find it too dark for their tastes. Often an accumulation of real life stress and/or tragedy can make it very difficult to suffer through dramatic fiction that is fraught with stress and tragedy of its own. I don't begrudge anyone that.

Well, it may not fit into your definition of grim-dark, but it's a major selling point of the franchise.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I over heard a coworker the other day going on and on about how much he loved "The Avengers" because it was light and colorful. He lamented how sick he was of all the grim-dark "crap" we see today. In superhero films, in video games, etc.

Not five minutes later, he was gushing about how "amazing" the last few episodes of "Game of Thrones" was. He made a point of saying how much he loves the show for it's dark and gritty tone.

That's the kind of hypocrisy I hear all the time from people everywhere in regards to show.

Not all of the fans act that way, of course, but damned if a lot of those I've met don't. Especially around this site.

 

[rcs619]

How could you not expect the show to turn out differently without significantly altering the material? And as far as happy endings go, there are still some Starks in need of our support. Would you really give up on them?

Exactly. Winter is coming, the night is coming, and it is dark and full of terrors.

I actually really liked the Red Wedding. Not because I enjoyed it, really, but because of what it reinforced about the setting. The bad guys in A Song of Ice and Fire are wealthy, they are powerful, and they are ruthless. You can't just go "I'm always going to do the right thing" and beat them. They are going to play the game more ruthlessly, and they are going to win. Ned Stark tried to do the right thing, tried to be merciful... and he got stabbed in the back and beheaded. Robb followed his heart instead of getting into a marriage of political convenience... and when he legitimately tried to do the right thing and make amends, he and his men got butchered. Not to mention the fact that he was totally "right" to execute Karstark for killing those imprisoned Lannister kids. You can't just do the right thing and hope for the best. You either play the game, or you get killed by people who are.

That's why I think people like Tyrion and Arya are probably the ones who are going to wind up surviving all of this (only read up through the 4th book). At their cores, they're generally decent people. They want to do the right thing most of the time. But they aren't afraid to do what's *needed*, even if it isn't necessarily what is *right*.

That is also why I am extremely worried about Daenerys and Jon. They aren't quite as lawful-good as Ned or Robb, but they are easily two of the most decent and upright people in the series right now... and people who hold that title tend to get brutally murdered.

But yeah, things like the Red Wedding are why A Song of Ice and Fire is such a great series. No one is safe, and even the good guys can die. There's really no way to know who is actually going to survive the shuffle as the next books come out, and that makes it all the more dramatic. When a character is in serious danger, you don't know if they're going to be alright, or if they're going to die. It makes every confrontation and twist so much more impactful. You can't go "Well Jon is totally going to pull this one out" because that's exactly the same thing you were thinking about Ned, and Robb right before they got killed.

Main character death is a good thing in a series It keeps the readers honest.

 

[lapan]

I actually approve of the scene, in both book and tv series. Martin has a major problem. TOO MANY CHARACTERS. So I approve of cutting down the batch a bit, even if he does introduce two more for each he bumps off.

He seems to kill of the most interesting characters though and keep the uninteresting characters around for ages.

snip

Spoiler: Story spoilers

I'd have liked if he didn't resurrect Catelyn though. She and Sansa always were my least favorite Starks.