Personally I've never really seen any of the Lannisters, much less Cersei as the big antagonists of the series. Yes they're enemies to the Starks but none of them really ever came across as the Big Bad. Cersei has shown that while she thinks of herself as this skilled and intelligent leader and master manipulator it's clear through her character arc that she isn't, not by a long shot. In fact I would argue that her downward spiral over the course of the story is another example of Martin subverting classic tropes, in this case the scheming, manipulative queen behind the throne. Cersei tries to be that and has a degree of success until Robert's death and Joffrey's ascension to the Iron Throne when her failures and blunders start. That should tell you something right there. If she was the stereotypical evil mastermind behind the throne than she wouldn't be so incompetent with the power and position her character archetype is supposed to be right at home at.
Tywin you can argue is an antagonist in the series but I find it hard to really hate him or label him a villain. I acknowledge that he's committed many cruel, ruthless and evil acts but as the story progressed and I learned more about him and his motivations I found I just couldn't hate him that much. It annoys the hell out of my friends who have gone on huge rants about why he's evil and I should hate him but it just doesn't stick.
Personally I've never really seen any of the Lannisters, much less Cersei as the big antagonists of the series. Yes they're enemies to the Starks but none of them really ever came across as the Big Bad. Cersei has shown that while she thinks of herself as this skilled and intelligent leader and master manipulator it's clear through her character arc that she isn't, not by a long shot. In fact I would argue that her downward spiral over the course of the story is another example of Martin subverting classic tropes, in this case the scheming, manipulative queen behind the throne. Cersei tries to be that and has a degree of success until Robert's death and Joffrey's ascension to the Iron Throne when her failures and blunders start. That should tell you something right there. If she was the stereotypical evil mastermind behind the throne than she wouldn't be so incompetent with the power and position her character archetype is supposed to be right at home at.
Tywin you can argue is an antagonist in the series but I find it hard to really hate him or label him a villain. I acknowledge that he's committed many cruel, ruthless and evil acts but as the story progressed and I learned more about him and his motivations I found I just couldn't hate him that much. It annoys the hell out of my friends who have gone on huge rants about why he's evil and I should hate him but it just doesn't stick.
Took me a few seconds to change gears while reading that post. I thought I was discussing something completely different with you.
Anyway, I never saw Tywin as an antagonist. Probably because it waited so long to introduce him, he always felt like little more than a side character/a mechanic for continuing Tyrion's character arc. He's intelligent and devious and a worthy foe, but something about him always left me thinking of him as little more than a plot device to advance the Lannister cause.
Meanwhile, I agree, Cersei certainly isn't the big bad. Her POV chapters make that very, very clear. She's a laughing stock. I can see that it looks like Martin is subverting a classic trope, but it seems like he's doing it for comedic effect which doesn't... quite fit the rest of the narrative. The problem is that by A Feast For Crows/A Dance With Dragons the only real antagonist left for anyone is their own incompetence. This just serves to remove all tension from the story. We're just left with the Others as the big threat, which is about as generic a fantasy villain as you can get. Martin is doing a lot that is novel and unique and subverts traditional tropes... but he's doing it in such a way that it robs his narrative of any cohesion, punch, or threat.
I call them dunces because in two books, I honestly can't think of a single major decision made by any character with any power that actually turned out well.
Individual plans and schemes often work out very well for certain characters...Tywin, Baelish and Varys being chief among those who seem very adroit at manipulating events in their favor. And you have smaller one-off coups by lesser intelligences, such as Frey or Manderley. You have Doran playing the long con in Dorne, Euron seemingly guiding the Ironborn to almost effortless victory against the south, Dany rolling over several city states, etc. What you don't get is any one character meeting with perpetual success. Which is, IMO, fairly refreshing. Typically intelligent characters receive their comeuppance at the hands of other intelligent characters, or are done in by their own flaws. Given the realm is collapsing due to a devasating succession crisis, not to mention facing numerous outside perils, it stands to reason that there would be many opportunities for failure.
Azahul said:
And a lot of them are obviously bad ideas. Look at Cersei giving power to the Church.
Martin gives Cersei a fairly unkind series of POV chapters, but it is an interesting exploration of a person of moderate intelligence suffering under extreme hubris and attempting to live a position she'd felt was long denied her due to her gender...and one she was under-equipped to deal with. She fancies herself Tywin's equal in statecraft but has none of her father's patience, political savvy, or long experience. And also unlike her father, she eschews wise council at every turn. I don't know that she's so much "stupid" as determined to demonstrate how smart she is, with disastrous results. I don't read her as "bumbling" so much as tragically arrogant and self-assured.
Azahul said:
As for Daenerys, you have a huge number of prophecies that clearly mark her out as a Chosen One, with an evil race of undead pouring down from the north that her dragons are perfectly suited for fighting. As a veteran of The Wheel of Time, the fact that she's mired in politics and possibly going insane doesn't really do much to set her apart from fellow classic Chosen Ones (in my eyes at least). Heck, "mired in politics" even applies to the characters of the Dragonlance books in the original trilogy. ASOIAF has an impressive scope and a similarly impressive attention to detail, and is a lot more willing to have characters (both good and bad) fail than many series, but it still plays out like a lot of what people criticise as generic fantasy. It is, of course, yet to be seen whether or not it'll end that way... up to GRRM I guess, but there's every indication so far that it will end in just the way I described. And it certainly doesn't stop Daenerys coming off like a plethora of fellow fantasy protagonists at about the mid-point in their story arc.
Both "The Prince who was promised" and "Azor Ahai" seem to be pointing directly at Jon, and the fact the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Jon is very evidently Lyanna Stark's son via Rhaegar Targaryen, that would appear to be him. Frankly, I see Daenerys as getting one of two possible edits. 1) She becomes Nissa Nissa to Jon's Azor Ahai, or 2) She falls victim to the dreaded Targaryen madness (which has been given PROMINENT attention through five volumes now, quite possibly as foreshadowing) and the Stark's ability to warg is necessary to bring her completely uncontrollable dragons to heel. I suppose it's always possible she continues her hero arc, but it seems increasingly unlikely to me after the events of ADWD.
Whatever the case, yes events north of the wall and the fact there are prophecies at all is more reminiscent of traditional epic fantasy, but as I said...ASOIAF was meant to be a marriage of epic fantasy with historical realism, not historical realism with a thin veneer of fantasy paint. I think he's done well at both, frankly, and I feel a charge of "generic fantasy" is unfair, especially given this series debuted in the early 90's, when "generic" was Terry fucking Goodkind and Forgotten Realms novels.
Remember Septon Meribald's speech about the War of the Ninepenny Kings from AFFC?
Back on the road, the septon said, "We would do well to keep a watch tonight, my friends. The villagers say they've seen three broken men skulking round the dunes, west of the old watchtower."
"Only three?" Ser Hyle smiled. "Three is honey to our swordswench. They're not like to trouble armed men."
"Unless they're starving," the septon said. "There is food in these marshes, but only for those with the eyes to find it, and these men are strangers here, survivors from some battle. If they should accost us, ser, I beg you, leave them to me."
"What will you do with them?"
"Feed them. Ask them to confess their sins, so that I might forgive them. Invite them to come with us to the Quiet Isle."
"That's as good as inviting them to slit our throats as we sleep," Hyle Hunt replied. "Lord Randyll has better ways to deal with broken men-steel and hempen rope."
"Ser? My lady?" said Podrick. "Is a broken man an outlaw?"
"More or less," Brienne answered.
Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know."
"Then they get a taste of battle."
"For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe."
"They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water."
"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world."
"And the man breaks."
"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them...but he should pity them as well."
When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"
"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."
"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.
"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."
I just don't see the "generic" in ASOIAF. Sometimes ponderous? Yes. Author loses himself in the details? Yes. Too many POV characters diluting the narrative? Yes. Occasional evidence the author is a pervy old man who over-focuses on the physical attributes of his female characters? Yes. But "generic" fantasy? Ser, I disagree. I've had a belly full of Elves and Dwarves and Wizards and magic quests. Maybe I'm a bit over-infatuated with newer fantasy that heavily subverts most of the worn old tropes. Perhaps in TIME subverting fantasy will become the new traditional fantasy. Until that day comes, I have a hard time viewing ASOIAF as "generic" in a genre that is still stuck aping Tolkien half a century after his death.
Azahul said:
Martin is doing a lot that is novel and unique and subverts traditional tropes... but he's doing it in such a way that it robs his narrative of any cohesion, punch, or threat.
1. RELIGIOUS. You have the Sparrow uprising in Kings Landing, Melisandre and her particular brand of zeal, and Stoneheart's Revenge Cult and the complete subversion of the Brotherhood.
2. POLITICAL. Dany's struggle to impose her values on an alien culture failing due to near endless insurgency in the city she's trying to hold, Dorne angling to topple what is left of Lannister power, Littlefinger scheming to a still unknown end, and at least two warring Kings still wrestling over the Iron Throne.
3. NATURAL. Both in the form of weather (the winter storm that freezes and devastates Stannis's army) and disease (Greyscale, the Pale Rider).
4. INDIVIDUAL. Often in the form of psychopaths. Joffrey is gone, and Gregor is...uh...mostly gone. Qyburn is still at large. Roose Bolton is still at large. The Freys are still at large. And the chapters involving Theon's eventual revolt against and escape from Ramsay are some of the most tense in the entire series. They OOZE threat.
5. SUPERNATURAL. The White Walkers, whose motives and ultimate purpose are still unclear. The prophecies, the meanings of which are still unclear. Some of the religious factions, whose motivations and ultimate allegiances are still unclear. And the Dragons, who are presently being anything but heroic.
6. MARTIAL. The Dothraki and the Ironborn are both still at large and represent rogue interests (as do the Wildlings, hypothetically, although they are moving towards a Good Faction).
However, in order to determine threat, you must first determine rooting interest. Who is your rooting interest? Bran? Daenerys? Jon? Tyrion? All of them are currently at the knife point of a dozen fairly prominent threats, and that's removing the White Walkers from the situation entirely.
I will admit, though, that based on what we know, the White Walkers do represent a pretty typical Chaotic Evil Horde of Doom with no real clear motivation beyond Kill Em All Because Mwahahahaha!
I would also contest that Cersei is an ENORMOUS threat. Look at the damage she's caused in a short period of time. She's a force of nature!
I call them dunces because in two books, I honestly can't think of a single major decision made by any character with any power that actually turned out well.
Individual plans and schemes often work out very well for certain characters...Tywin, Baelish and Varys being chief among those who seem very adroit at manipulating events in their favor. And you have smaller one-off coups by lesser intelligences, such as Frey or Manderley. You have Doran playing the long con in Dorne, Euron seemingly guiding the Ironborn to almost effortless victory against the south, Dany rolling over several city states, etc. What you don't get is any one character meeting with perpetual success. Which is, IMO, fairly refreshing. Typically intelligent characters receive their comeuppance at the hands of other intelligent characters, or are done in by their own flaws. Given the realm is collapsing due to a devasating succession crisis, not to mention facing numerous outside perils, it stands to reason that there would be many opportunities for failure.
Azahul said:
And a lot of them are obviously bad ideas. Look at Cersei giving power to the Church.
Martin gives Cersei a fairly unkind series of POV chapters, but it is an interesting exploration of a person of moderate intelligence suffering under extreme hubris and attempting to live a position she'd felt was long denied her due to her gender...and one she was under-equipped to deal with. She fancies herself Tywin's equal in statecraft but has none of her father's patience, political savvy, or long experience. And also unlike her father, she eschews wise council at every turn. I don't know that she's so much "stupid" as determined to demonstrate how smart she is, with disastrous results. I don't read her as "bumbling" so much as tragically arrogant and self-assured.
Azahul said:
As for Daenerys, you have a huge number of prophecies that clearly mark her out as a Chosen One, with an evil race of undead pouring down from the north that her dragons are perfectly suited for fighting. As a veteran of The Wheel of Time, the fact that she's mired in politics and possibly going insane doesn't really do much to set her apart from fellow classic Chosen Ones (in my eyes at least). Heck, "mired in politics" even applies to the characters of the Dragonlance books in the original trilogy. ASOIAF has an impressive scope and a similarly impressive attention to detail, and is a lot more willing to have characters (both good and bad) fail than many series, but it still plays out like a lot of what people criticise as generic fantasy. It is, of course, yet to be seen whether or not it'll end that way... up to GRRM I guess, but there's every indication so far that it will end in just the way I described. And it certainly doesn't stop Daenerys coming off like a plethora of fellow fantasy protagonists at about the mid-point in their story arc.
Both "The Prince who was promised" and "Azor Ahai" seem to be pointing directly at Jon, and the fact the series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Jon is very evidently Lyanna Stark's son via Rhaegar Targaryen, that would appear to be him. Frankly, I see Daenerys as getting one of two possible edits. 1) She becomes Nissa Nissa to Jon's Azor Ahai, or 2) She falls victim to the dreaded Targaryen madness (which has been given PROMINENT attention through five volumes now, quite possibly as foreshadowing) and the Stark's ability to warg is necessary to bring her completely uncontrollable dragons to heel. I suppose it's always possible she continues her hero arc, but it seems increasingly unlikely to me after the events of ADWD.
Whatever the case, yes events north of the wall and the fact there are prophecies at all is more reminiscent of traditional epic fantasy, but as I said...ASOIAF was meant to be a marriage of epic fantasy with historical realism, not historical realism with a thin veneer of fantasy paint. I think he's done well at both, frankly, and I feel a charge of "generic fantasy" is unfair, especially given this series debuted in the early 90's, when "generic" was Terry fucking Goodkind and Forgotten Realms novels.
Remember Septon Meribald's speech about the War of the Ninepenny Kings from AFFC?
Back on the road, the septon said, "We would do well to keep a watch tonight, my friends. The villagers say they've seen three broken men skulking round the dunes, west of the old watchtower."
"Only three?" Ser Hyle smiled. "Three is honey to our swordswench. They're not like to trouble armed men."
"Unless they're starving," the septon said. "There is food in these marshes, but only for those with the eyes to find it, and these men are strangers here, survivors from some battle. If they should accost us, ser, I beg you, leave them to me."
"What will you do with them?"
"Feed them. Ask them to confess their sins, so that I might forgive them. Invite them to come with us to the Quiet Isle."
"That's as good as inviting them to slit our throats as we sleep," Hyle Hunt replied. "Lord Randyll has better ways to deal with broken men-steel and hempen rope."
"Ser? My lady?" said Podrick. "Is a broken man an outlaw?"
"More or less," Brienne answered.
Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know."
"Then they get a taste of battle."
"For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe."
"They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water."
"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world."
"And the man breaks."
"He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them...but he should pity them as well."
When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"
"Why, no older than your boy," Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."
"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.
"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."
I just don't see the "generic" in ASOIAF. Sometimes ponderous? Yes. Author loses himself in the details? Yes. Too many POV characters diluting the narrative? Yes. Occasional evidence the author is a pervy old man who over-focuses on the physical attributes of his female characters? Yes. But "generic" fantasy? Ser, I disagree. I've had a belly full of Elves and Dwarves and Wizards and magic quests. Maybe I'm a bit over-infatuated with newer fantasy that heavily subverts most of the worn old tropes. Perhaps in TIME subverting fantasy will become the new traditional fantasy. Until that day comes, I have a hard time viewing ASOIAF as "generic" in a genre that is still stuck aping Tolkien half a century after his death.
Azahul said:
Martin is doing a lot that is novel and unique and subverts traditional tropes... but he's doing it in such a way that it robs his narrative of any cohesion, punch, or threat.
1. RELIGIOUS. You have the Sparrow uprising in Kings Landing, Melisandre and her particular brand of zeal, and Stoneheart's Revenge Cult and the complete subversion of the Brotherhood.
2. POLITICAL. Dany's struggle to impose her values on an alien culture failing due to near endless insurgency in the city she's trying to hold, Dorne angling to topple what is left of Lannister power, Littlefinger scheming to a still unknown end, and at least two warring Kings still wrestling over the Iron Throne.
3. NATURAL. Both in the form of weather (the winter storm that freezes and devastates Stannis's army) and disease (Greyscale, the Pale Rider).
4. INDIVIDUAL. Often in the form of psychopaths. Joffrey is gone, and Gregor is...uh...mostly gone. Qyburn is still at large. Roose Bolton is still at large. The Freys are still at large. And the chapters involving Theon's eventual revolt against and escape from Ramsay are some of the most tense in the entire series. They OOZE threat.
5. SUPERNATURAL. The White Walkers, whose motives and ultimate purpose are still unclear. The prophecies, the meanings of which are still unclear. Some of the religious factions, whose motivations and ultimate allegiances are still unclear. And the Dragons, who are presently being anything but heroic.
6. MARTIAL. The Dothraki and the Ironborn are both still at large and represent rogue interests (as do the Wildlings, hypothetically, although they are moving towards a Good Faction).
However, in order to determine threat, you must first determine rooting interest. Who is your rooting interest? Bran? Daenerys? Jon? Tyrion? All of them are currently at the knife point of a dozen fairly prominent threats, and that's removing the White Walkers from the situation entirely.
I will admit, though, that based on what we know, the White Walkers do represent a pretty typical Chaotic Evil Horde of Doom with no real clear motivation beyond Kill Em All Because Mwahahahaha!
I would also contest that Cersei is an ENORMOUS threat. Look at the damage she's caused in a short period of time. She's a force of nature!
First of all, you're absolutely right. I had entirely forgotten about Euron and the Ironborn. They are actually a group that seems to be reasonably well-led with characters that come off as legitimately competent. It's a shame that they've been so disconnected from the rest of the story that they're rather easy to forget about (hopefully that's soon to change in the next book).
It's entirely possible that my view of what constitutes "generic" is informed by what I normally read, because I don't have "elves and dwarfs and wizards and magic quests" as prerequisites. Well, "magic quests" maybe. The trappings of a series, like the presence of non-human species and the kind of magic at play, are usually fairly irrelevant to me. Within the context of the Fantasy genre at large though, the word "mediocre" would probably fit better. I stress that I do like ASOIAF, I just feel that everything in it has already been done, and better, by series like the aforementioned Empire books, The Wheel of Time, Tolkein's various works, and so on. He certainly is better than Terry Goodkind or most of Feist's turgid stuff (again, with the very, very important exception of Empire).
Regarding the prophecy, I was actually thinking a lot more of Cersei's personal prophecy that one day a prettier queen would show up and displace her. Jon's involvement as Azor Ahai and so on does indeed seem pretty obvious, although honestly that's just another on the "common fantasy tropes" that some of the more rabid fans of the series I know insist GRRM avoids completely.
For the threats, so many of them either are or feel like threats of the characters' own making, which only serves to reinforce my impression of those same characters as inept. The threat of the Sparrows is notable as basically Cersei's biggest blunder. Something similar applies for the trials faced by Dany in her invasion of... I dunno, that always struck me as GRRM basically writing a fantasy analogue of American interventionism into the Middle East. Made it a bit hard to take seriously (I was always constantly expecting rumours of more dragon eggs to be used as justification for an invasion, only for them to turn out to not exist). The natural threats boil down to plot devices. I mean, yeah, they add to the realism of the world, but they're not something the characters have any control over so they hardly feel like a threat the characters need to confront. The supernatural, as outlined, have all been playing out like stock-fantasy tropes. And the Dothraki and the Ironborn have only the most tangential connection to the story up until the end of A Dance With Dragons. But the big problem that every single one of these threats have is that it's hard to identify how much danger they actually put the characters in. Well, except for the Others, that both seems pretty clear and pretty stock-standard for fantasy.
Meanwhile, Cersei still stands as the only threat to, well, Westeros as a whole that can be identified as a single figure, which is why I tend to latch onto her so much and find her presentation as incompetent annoying. She's the only threat, out of all the many, many threats you can list, that can be easily nailed down in terms of what level of danger she actually presents to the other characters. It's a shame that that level of danger is really "not much". Her POV chapters are incredibly unkind, as you said, to the point that it retcons Eddard Stark's failure to dethrone her as something absolutely pathetic. Either that, or else Littlefinger must have been holding Cersei's hand throughout the entire thing to stop her from screwing up.
Basically, GRRM is trying to do a lot of things in these books. He seems to be trying to marry authentic, historical politicking with standard fantasy elements and a lot of erotic fiction (entirely unrelated, but I find it perpetually amusing that he can skip over any of the biggest battles in his setting, but finds it absolutely necessary to give me a blow-by-blow recount of Jaime screwing Cersei over their son's corpse, while she was on her period...). Sometimes he does it well. Sometimes the discordant elements really stick out. Almost always, someone else has done what he's trying to do better.
You know, I've spent so much time in this threat ragging on the series that I feel I should mention that there are parts of it that I like. Arya's segments are uniformly interesting, and I look forward to that paying off. The reversal that takes place with Jaime's character when you first get his POV is flat out amazing (and part of why I dislike Cersei's POV chapters so much, having already proven he can write sympathetic reasons for abhorrent acts GRRM goes and just makes her an insecure, paranoid idiot). Dany and Jon are both ok, even though they represent easily the most stock-standard fantasy elements of the series. And the first book as a whole is really quite good, it's just that since then he's never managed to make the series anywhere near as interesting.
Just watched episode 10 and roll on season 4. It has everything you want in a TV show, story, script, good acting, pacing, and above all, depth. You can have all the blood and tits you like, but without a good story behind it, (i.e. Spartacus, the Tudors) you really don't have much.
I'm loving the show so much that I just bought the first 2 books and part 1 of the 3rd. Looking forward to season 4, hopefully the boxset and books will keep me busy until then.
So a book decides to do something different and have the hero suffer the fate you wish for the villain because the characters and story are well written and innovative? I advice only reading children's stories from now on if that's how you're going to react, especially if you then intend to ***** about it on the internet. Give us a damn break.
On topic:
I spent the first two seasons patiently waiting for the dragon girl to die. What an annoying character she was. As much as I liked most of the other characters for the way they were written, ms. dragonmother was just too clichéd and perfect.
As someone who's read the books I'll tell you this, 'dragon girl' is one of the major POV characters of the series and isn't going to die anytime soon, if at all so you might as well get use to her.
Where in the world did you get that kind of information?
Skinning animals whilst alive is a big no-no. Not just for ethical reasons but for practical ones as well. If an animal is alive during the skinning process obviously it will struggle and bleed, pretty much rendering the pelt useless.
Find it on youtube. Fur farm china. Sickest thing I ever watched, but also kind of eye-opening as to how far a human will go to financially thrive/survive. Be warned though, THE IMAGES ARE SCARRING.
EDIT: And with scarring I mean fucking scarring. Don't take my warning lightly. I couldn't sleep that night because the images wouldn't get out of my mind.
On topic:
I spent the first two seasons patiently waiting for the dragon girl to die. What an annoying character she was. As much as I liked most of the other characters for the way they were written, ms. dragonmother was just too clichéd and perfect.
I've actually seen that video and I agree it's pretty horrendous. I'm not sure why in the world they do it since, as I said, it pretty much renders the pelts useless and worthless. At least, that's what my grandmother told me since her family ran a fur farm in P.E.I. Needless to say, it's certainly not a standard practice nor a recommended one.
EDIT: The only reason I can think of is a lack of government regulations. I'm trying to find any unbiased source on why it might have happened but most of what I'm finding is either on the sites of animal rights groups or fur advocacy groups.
As a book purist I'm surprised you're championing Dinklage's Tyrion, whose aggressive white washing on the part of the show runners has almost entirely altered his character.
I've spent long, long posts before absolutely castigating the show for some of its bizarre story and character departures and loss of depth, but I do think you're overstating the problem somewhat here. The casting has been fairly strong, the performances have been good, and much of the essence of the novels has been carried forward. I really enjoy re-experiencing books and films and games I love vicariously through unspoiled people, and thus I've spent MANY hours reading through forums where "Unsullied" comment on the show, make predictions, and discuss the characters. And I can usually peg pretty easily who the show has communicated well from the books, and who it hasn't. And it's communicated the VAST majority of the characters VERY well, despite my misgivings.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not championing the casting of a (as my wife puts it) almost attractive here as opposed to a much more appropriate actor for the part of Tyrion. I just like this guy too much as he plays the part. Yes, he's WAY off of what Tyrion really is, but I do get Tyrion's cynical humor, wit, and intelligence from the part, so I'm ok with it.
Most of the rest of my complaints about casting are quibbles (age, look, etc) but some are just too far off from the way they are described in the book for me to work (Theon comes to mind).
However, if it was just casting, I would still be watching the show (my wife watches it nearby and I just get irritated every time I look over or she fills me in). Casting I can get over. When I first saw Eyrie (a medieval castle literally sitting on a mountain) depicted as Jabba's Palace sitting on a low mesa, I realized things were off. It was things that changed the heart of the show or characters that made me hate it. Cersei aborted Robert's baby (she didn't have a beautiful brown haired baby that lived for a short time). Cersei and Robert would never reminisce about their "good times." Catelyn would never sit up all night praying for Jon to live. Theon wasn't a horrific troll.
And then the story/name changes that make no sense to me. Asha Greyjoy is important. Osha is a bit part/plot device. Why change Asha's name when Osha's name could be changed and have no real impact? Besides "Yara" sounds stupid. Change Osha's name if there is confusion. Change the LESSER character. Why have the Reed's make a late appearance, or did you not read far enough ahead to realize that they were hugely important and you thought you could write them out, only realizing after Dance that you had to keep them in? Why change Jeyne Westerling to a nobody and kill her? What was wrong with just having Jeyne and having her disappear from the cast after she survives the Red Wedding? Why kill off Irri? Why have Dany's dragons stolen (wtf?!)? Why show us a season of Theon being tortured when you know you're going to have to torture the crap out of him later... giving us all torture fatigue. Why take out Edric Storm and completely change Gendry's story, making the pre-Catelyn "King's Men" far more mercenary than they actually were? Why change Loras' association with the Kingsguard as some sort of marriage foil for Sansa and Cersei? What happened to the Kettleblacks? Oh wait, the ever-present "people are too stupid to keep up with too many characters" argument... well, we're screwed for that one, as books 4 and 5 introduce a never ending parade of new characters.
What are people going to do when faced with the onslaught of incoming characters?
Some real spoilier warnings here, if you have not read Feast and Dance:
The Sand Snakes (guessing we'll limit them down to 1 or none)
Arianne Martell
Doran Martell
Quenten Martell
Ser Jon Connington
Prince Aegon Targaryen
Aeron Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Euron Greyjoy
Countless annoying Ghiscari characters
Penny
Ser Wyman Manderly
and this is just the major plot point characters, we won't even mention the huge number of side characters, such as the Royces, Harry the Heir, the rest of the Vale, the numerous Wildling characters, Val(?), Bolton's bannerman, numerous important Greyjoy retainers, the Maesters of the Citadel, Pate(?)
At this point, I'll make a prediction. Mance will be married to Val/Dalla, but whichever one they choose, the other won't exist and she won't die in childbirth during the battle at the Wall. Mance's actual wife will survive at the wall with her baby, rather than Dalla dying in childbirth and Val keeping the child (for a time). People don't have the attention span to follow anything that intricate.
I'd just like to note on the part of the Osha and Asha problem that the writers and directors mentioned several times that they weren't sure if they were going to get renewed for a second season. One particular instance of note was in the case of Marillion, who becomes a somewhat important character later on, but in the show he has his tongue ripped out. They said that they weren't sure if they were going to get the chance to do a second season, and so they wanted to at least rip someone's tongue out just to show Joffrey's craziness off a bit.
So, it's possible that this is some of their explanation for their shortsightedness, that they didn't think they'd get far enough for it to be a problem and then when they got to the second season they finally had to address it, but by then Osha was already Osha. And they're kind of right to assume that tv viewers would have a problem with it, as we all know what the average tv viewer is like.
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