Game of Thrones season 5 - Your thoughts now that it's over

[Frankster]

sacrifices his own daughter (a move that is stupid not only because changes the character, but because it was clear that his men would abandon him, only a Jeoffrey-level leader wouldn't take that in consideration.)

This is the one case of bad writing I'm defending.
You make it sound like Stannis had a choice besides either burning his daughter and doing a massive leap of faith that the lord of light will grant him victory OR allowing him and his army to freeze to death, Shireen included.
The whole Jeoffrey comparison only works if you take the shireen sacrifice in its own bubble divorced of context where it was either that or everyone dieing, there was no desire of simple sadism at work here.

D and D put Stannis in the worst situation possible, on the road to winterfell in the grip of winter, and having just had HIS SUPPLIES AND SIEGE WEAPONS and even most of his horses,gone up in smoke and his army losing men to attrition fast.
It was GG, there was nothing Stannis could do anymore, it was all over, the only sensible thing was to give up on this whole endeavour and sail back home, but that isn't Stannis's way "only forwards, never back" and that character flaw landed him in the position where he has to choose between sacrificing his only heir (in the process giving up his own dynasty and possibly the entire Baratheon line who are now survived only by bastards) or dieing in the snow along with everyone else who followed him.

 

[Oly J]

snip

basically this, in total agreement with you, as a book reader, and not necessarily a purest, this season was very disappointing, also, the thing with Shireen, you know the one, I hated that, I mean there was simply no reason for it other than shock value, also, the emission of the whole "new king of the iron islands" arc from the book was disappointing, in fact they omitted a lot I was looking forward to seeing, like, for example, most of Tyrions storyline from "A Dance With Dragons" along with a large number of characters. I quite like Arya's story arc this season, but that's largely (though not entirely) faithful

 

[Dragonlayer]

A Storm of Cuts

The Snakes were involved in that? I thought it was just Arianne's personal clique and that Darkstar knight who disappears?

As for the rest, fairy snuff: they did have some ridiculous dialogue and came across more as rebellious tweens then the deadly elite of Dorne, I just thought I had blanked out on their sections in the books and missed some epic moments judging by the internet's complaints.

Regarding Doran's secrecy, yeah obviously he can't shout "FIRE AND BLOOD!" from the rooftops but even when he's holed up tight inside his own palaces and discussing things with characters who have the skills to help him and desperately want to do so if it means vengeance for Oberyn, he goes on and on and on about tangential topics instead of just explaining that he is trying to do *something*. If I recall correctly, that quote you have above about how he was the tall grass that hid Oberyen's dangerous Pokemon comes near the end of the first Break-dancing Dragons book and that's after about 10 chapters of Doran hiding critical information from his own side.

 

[Dragonlayer]

You'd think Ramsay wouldn't be able to resist burning men alive in their sleep but instead he went for the horses, food supplies and siege weapons...

That's actually a really good point and highlights how much Ramsay has been shielded by show cannon, having been upgraded from short-sighted sadistic butcher to invincible sadistic butcher who never has to face any consequences for his actions. I mean, I could have accepted the notion that the Bolton troops, being Northerners, would know their own terrain well enough to ambush Stannis but that they managed to get into the camp, destroy the vital supplies with ease and then escape without even a single "Hey you on the horses!" from the guards? Does House Bolton have stealth camouflage?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The Snakes were involved in that? I thought it was just Arianne's personal clique and that Darkstar knight who disappears?

The general implication is that the Snakes and Arianne are on the same page all along. It's why Doran has them separated. Ellaria, contrary to her role on the show, speaks out against their rebellion.

Regarding Doran's secrecy, yeah obviously he can't shout "FIRE AND BLOOD!" from the rooftops but even when he's holed up tight inside his own palaces and discussing things with characters who have the skills to help him and desperately want to do so if it means vengeance for Oberyn, he goes on and on and on about tangential topics instead of just explaining that he is trying to do *something*. If I recall correctly, that quote you have above about how he was the tall grass that hid Oberyen's dangerous Pokemon comes near the end of the first Break-dancing Dragons book and that's after about 10 chapters of Doran hiding critical information from his own side.

Given the almost supernatural efficacy of the spy networks in the world, and the near ritual betrayals, I can appreciate how a guy like Doran might want to keep his cards close to his chest, particularly when the family he is planning to overthrow has a history of burning their opponents to the ground and extinguishing their lineage. There aren't a lot of mulligans in a situation like that.

Dorne is pretty small. They couldn't win a prolonged campaign against any of the other Seven Kingdoms without aid/popular support. Arianne knows it, and thinks she can find it through Myrcella. Doran knows it, and thinks he can find it through Daenerys. In the show, they're just all "Let's kill the girl and see what happens lol!".

That's actually a really good point and highlights how much Ramsay has been shielded by show cannon, having been upgraded from short-sighted sadistic butcher to invincible sadistic butcher who never has to face any consequences for his actions.

Ramsay's bizarre/supernatural invincibility was established through two show-writer adds...his shirtless battle against a team of Ironborn commandos (and don't even get me started on the show's treatment of the fucking Ironborn), and his "20 men" plan where he obliterated half of a siege camp without ever being spotted or raising a single alarm.

The show writers believe these sort of innovations are "exciting" and "fill in the dull spots in the narrative". Taken on their own, they're not particularly harmful. Cumulatively, they reveal a story with bizarre characters acting inconsistently, warped time lines, geographical impossibilities and enormous plot holes.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Honestly, looking back on it now I starting to think it was the worst seasons of them all. When you look back on the main characters arc it just feel shorts when you focus on that single character scene and put it into one shot-

Spoiler: Main characters arc

Cersei- Got interested in those religionist fanatics when that high priest was put to shame. While it work in her favour when her son wife and brother were arrestes, she got her comeuppance when they turned on her.

Jamie- When he learn that his niece/ daughter life is going to be in danger, he got his pal Brom to joined him as they travel to Dorme. Despite arriving as stealthy they got caught but killed the guards thus optaining disquised to entered the enter. They arrived in time when the assassination begin and they were in equel footing until the royal guards arrived. Jamie stated his intention to the king and they neogatated and they were left free with his daughter/ neice and her soon to be husband. His plan ultimately fail when his daughter/ niece got posioned on the trip back.

Arya- Arrived at the city to be trained into an assassin but she was denied but then wasn't a few minutes later. At first she did some chore and it seen she still held onto her individuality thus cannot become one of them until she discard all she did for the most part (kept onto Needle). She learn of the secret room and did became an assassin or rather an alternative by putting a temeporary new identity. She however abuse her power by tracking that pedo and murdering him which resulted her becoming blind.

John Snow- Ok his arc was the only one that was most interested out of the lots. He became the new leader, excuted that guy was treason and decided to set that wilding free in a bid to forge an allience with them. He went with that wildering to their homeplace and while some agreed to joined him, they got invaded by the White Walker. He kicked arsed abit but none the less had to retreated as he saw an scary threat that will soon to come.

Brienne and Podrick- The inn where they stayed also housed Sansa and Littelfinger but her plan to protect her was denied. She follow them anyway which lead the two to Winterfell. She was able to get a message to Sansa to signel for help if she needed it and they waited. The wait came to an end when she went off to finish off Stannis just when the signel was lit.

Stannis- Kicked the rest of the invading Wildings arses and wanted the remaining survival well their leader submit to him but he refuse so he got him to be burned alived. With no additional soldiers, he still carry on with the plan to invade Winterfell. Winter is coming which they were not adapted for so he was desperate enough to burned his daughter which his overall plan had fail. He then got murder by Brienne.

Sansa- She pretty much return home, get raped and had enough of it to commit a sucide pact with Reek/ Theon.

Tyrion- He arrived out of Westeros and had noting better to do than to joined Daenerys but he got kipnaped by Jorah. While held as his hostage, they soon got attacked by those greyscale inflicted and Jorah saved his life. Things got worse however when they got capture by slaved trader but they worked it in their flavour by heading to Meereen. During the first deathmatch thank to Jorah intervation, Tyrion present himself to the queen and perswaded enough to not only not killed him but to served her as her guidence. Due to the Queen absence thank to the Son of Harpy second attack he is now left in charge of governing Meereen until Daenerys is found.

Daenerys- Her new conquered city soon met by the resistance, Son of Harpy. They post a real threat when they ambush her soldier led by Grey Worm and her knight was murder during the ambush. He retaliated by having one of the royal house members eaten by her dragon. She came up with a solution thanks to her translator by opening up the arean and marry one of the houses royal families. In saying so she took no pleasure from the arenas both times. Son of Harpy attacked again in the arena and when things were looking bad for her. Her dragon arrived to saved her and she rode on his back to be flown off to safety. She arrived in the middle of nowhere with her dragon exhauted so she travel on foot but soon met by an army of hosemen.

Ok sure the past season are all like that for some but they usually have something more interesting that happened along the way.

 

[Atrocious Joystick]

Felt like they could have cut almost all of the dorne plot. Just keeping the princess getting assassinated which seems like it would be important later on. Brianne and Pod didn't really have to show up until the very end to shank Stannis. The saved time should have been spent on fleshing out Stannis's and Theon's plot, because both felt kinda rushed. We're told a lot of things about them, but never really shown anything. We know Stannis is fucked via winter before he sacrifices Shireen but we're never given any emotional attachement to how fucked he is which make the whole thing seem kind of extreme given what we are shown. Theon gets to look upset and then suddenly Darth Vader murders some the butcher woman and he and Sansa do their Thelma and Louise routine. Oh, and the "20 good men" part was silly. Raiding an enemy camp seems like something you would send expendable canon fodder to do, not your heir.

Otherwise it was fine. I wonder how they are going to handle the whole wall story with Jon gone though. Hodor & Co get to step in instead?

 

[bauke67]

Overall I'm pretty positive about it. Despite what a lot of people seem to say I liked Stannis'ending. Him sacrificing his daughter given the situation was sort of plausible since he desperately needed a miracle in order to win. In doing so he did betray his insistence on justice, though, since we don't kill little girls for thrones if we're just. That's what he payed for in the end. I also like how his wife went overboard with regret since it emphasises further how grimly determined to go on Stannis is in comparison to her. It would have been nice if we'd gotten a better impression of his feelings before the battle though(did he know it was suicide?).

Im gonna agree with some others here when a lot of what happened seems to mostly be building up to next season(walkers, pacifying Mereen etc).

Loved what they did to Cersei. Really wasn't sure at what point pity was and wasn't what I wanted to feel.

 

[Erttheking]

I've never seen anything roller coaster in quality quite like this season. You've got downright amazing things like the battle of hardhome, following up by Stannis sacrificing his daughter for nothing and his entire campaign falling apart because Ramsay is such a Gary Stu he can set the food stories for an entire fucking army on fire without anyone noticing, and then the woman who was practically begging Stannis to sacrifice their daughter gets cold feet at the last second? NO! Also Briene ditching watching over Sansa so she can get her petty revenge on Stannis. I'm sorry, STANNIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIGGER ASSHOLE IN THAT SCENE NOT BRIENE! Oh and Stannis sacrifices his daughter to get victory then doesn't get victory, WHAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT OF THAT!? This solidifies his daughter's death as shock value. It was bad enough when he had to do it as a tough call (That came about because of Gary Stu Ramsay Bolton, so it was already waist deep in bullshit) but now that it was a POINTLESS call, it feels like it was shoehorned in in a pathetic attempt to raise the stakes.

Also, Greyjoys. They exist, remember show?

And the Sand Snakes, what personality traits do they have? I don't hate them as much as everyone else does but looking back I can't remember a single thing about them other than the one with short hair can't stop reminding us how sexy she is every five seconds. And Christ, there was WAY too much time dedicated to a subplot that can be summed up with "Jaime tried to save his daughter but she got poisoned".

God, as someone who is only on book 2 of the series I can already tell that this is a massive fucking mess. Then again I've been hearing about the changes that the show has been making, and I can already tell from a lot of the changes (WHERE THE FUCK IS LADY STONEHEART!?) that the show is going down the shitter.

EDIT: And like the person below me said, they crammed two books into one season and now they're going to be making up their own story lines. I am VERY afraid.

 

[Evonisia]

Season 5 makes me fearful for Season 6. They've got no books to defile, it's just going to be their own storylines now.

That's just, I have no words.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

God, as someone who is only on book 2 of the series I can already tell that this is a massive fucking mess.

Oh just you wait.

They were pretty faithful through the first two books. Shit starts spiraling rapidly downhill after the third season.

 

[Silence]

I was so upset with the quality of the show that I accidentally spoiled the last scene/last Jon Snow chapter in the books for someone.

I never spoil.

 

[OhNoYouDidnt]

Did... Did they really cut out the whole Iron Islands plot? Did Victarion and Euron simply... not appear? What in the seven hells, HBO? What's wrong with you guys? Instead of the trainwreck you made of Dorne, you could have had some great scenes with the Greyjoys!

*Shakes head* Good lord, I don't even know why I keep expecting the show to be better.

 

[Evonisia]

God, as someone who is only on book 2 of the series I can already tell that this is a massive fucking mess.

Oh just you wait.

They were pretty faithful through the first two books. Shit starts spiraling rapidly downhill after the third season.

I was wondering why I wasn't feeling Season Three as much as the first two despite not reading the third book.

Well, except for Qarth, nothing apart from the Power Rangers makes me wonder what the hell is going on as much as Qarth did.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Did... Did they really cut out the whole Iron Islands plot? Did Victarion and Euron simply... not appear?

Correct. First we got a bunch of lanky, pale guys in grey instead of the clearly Viking-inspired Ironborn, replete with The BBC Office's infamous Chris Finch as the legendary and fearsome Dagmer Cleftjaw, described thusly on the Wiki:

Dagmer has snow white hair and a hideous scar. A longaxe blow had nearly killed him as a child, splintering his jaw, smashing his front teeth and left him four lips instead of two. He has a shaggy beard, but the hair does not grow where the scar is.

Portrayed on the show by this guy:

Then they blitzed Euron, Victarion, et al out of the show entirely, and reduced Asha (sorry...YARA) to a bit part.

 

[Ishal]

Charles Dance was a gift to that show, and he elevated every scene he was in.

Yeah, he was good. But I feel I soured on his acting toward the end. I won't accuse him of phoning it in, because I don't really believe he was. I think I was just settled in and his performance was just.. eh.

He can only talk for so long... and-annunciate-the-important-parts-of-what he is saying... before it starts to get old...

He used the same tenor and inflection at the same instances and parts of his sentences it started to wear on me. Yes, this is a very nitpicky thing to talk about, but there it is. It also didn't help that nearly every time we saw him he was ON. Meaning his was Tywin Lannister, patriarch of his family, and the person who held the power and influence, all the time. Thus he was conveying the same mannerisms, the same intonations, the same attitudes. It just got old.

This is the kind of shit people talk about when they complain about the show, and yet get hand-waved as stuffy "book purists" who do not recognize how much more "fun" and "engaging" the show is comparatively. Fortunately those arguments are starting to dwindle away, as even show fanatics are beginning to wonder just what the fuck it is they are watching.

Just out of curiosity, does it bother you that they get handwaved?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Just out of curiosity, does it bother you that they get handwaved?

When it's lazy argumentation, yes.

 

[OhNoYouDidnt]

Snippity snoppity snoop

Aaaagh, this is just so frustrating! I'd argue that Victarion and Euron were some of the most interesting new additions to the cast, but no, the showrunners did-- You know what, I was going to write a huge diatribe, but I'm not even going to bother. I'd just be repeating your points, really.

It's just such a waste of potential. Such a criminal waste. I should hope The Winds of Winter comes out before Season 6, but... I kind-of doubt that'll happen.

 

[irishda]

The books and the show could never meld properly. The show's at its peak when its focused and can let its many talented actors flex their muscles. The books are at their peak with the rich history of the world and the expansive characters. But the problem with that is a TV show can't handle the weight of so many characters and sidetracking back stories without seeming aimless or wandering. Lost is about as close as I can think to a show with so many important characters, but that was mainly balanced well by having them in one location, not thrown all over the world, and with more episodes (GoT is far too expensive to have an extended season). So they have to cut a lot of fat from the books in order to streamline the show. I can agree with this. We lose Victarion and Euron and Strong Belwas and Maester Marwyn (so far) and so on and so on, but we get more time with the more important characters and the story moves faster.

OT: This season I was hugely disappointed with how slow the story moved. A good season requires resolution to feel like a complete chapter, with just enough open endings to keep the audience asking for more. But we got almost nothing but loose threads with very few resolutions because very little actually happened. The North is the only place where things are progressing reasonably. Stannis saw his character arc completed (maybe?), the Boltons have secured Winterfell, but now must find Sansa (the Manderlys cometh?), Davos finds himself without a king, Jon Snow needs help again, and Brienne remains bad at keeping promises.

The only other positives were the rise of the High Sparrow, and Varys and Tyrion set up to recreate Season 2 magic in Mereen. Dorne could still come out as a positive if my hope that Doran is actually more similar to his book counterpart proves true. After all, he didn't explicitly state what he was referring to when he said "I don't believe in third chances." But if not, he's about as interesting as his chair.

And, as with everything else I talk about in GoT, Dany remains the worst character in book and in show.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But the problem with that is a TV show can't handle the weight of so many characters and sidetracking back stories without seeming aimless or wandering.

While I do agree that the books have a ridiculous number of ancillary characters and it was a heavy load for any show to handle, this IS something of an excuse. HBO had another show called The Wire, which also had a stupendous number of characters to keep track of along with byzantine political plotting and a lot of high level procedural mumbo jumbo to keep straight. Not only did they manage, but it was widely considered the best show in the history of the medium.

There are inescapable issues of pacing and budget that will haunt a show like GoT, but SO many of their wounds are self-inflicted. They're not casualties of the medium, they are casualties of stupid decision making and bad writing.