Game of Thrones season 5 - Your thoughts now that it's over
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I'll try and keep the hyperbole to a dull roar, but I thought it was absolutely woeful. I'm sure there are worse shows on television, but I'm not watching any of them.
I'll be accused of being a book purist, but only in the sense that deviating from superior material makes very little sense to me. I supported deviations when they resulted in good television. Arya and Tywin? Bit silly, but why not. Charles Dance was a gift to that show, and he elevated every scene he was in. Brienne vs the Hound? Absolute tosh, but super entertaining. Didn't really violate the spirit of either character, and left them both where they should be once it was done. Robert's speech to Cersei about "five and one". Sansa being assaulted during the riot in place of Lollys. There were changes that, while not excellent, at least made sense. You could point to the change and say "I understand why that change was made".
That stopped eventually. George liked to refer to it as a kind of butterfly effect, deviations requiring further deviations, but a lot of the deviations the showrunners came up with made very, very little sense, and often demonstrably weakened the material. Often to the point of being almost unwatchable. I posted in the Stannis thread, but here's a repeat of a cross section of some examples of horrendous show-writing...
Here's Dorne from the books:
I'll be accused of being a book purist, but only in the sense that deviating from superior material makes very little sense to me. I supported deviations when they resulted in good television. Arya and Tywin? Bit silly, but why not. Charles Dance was a gift to that show, and he elevated every scene he was in. Brienne vs the Hound? Absolute tosh, but super entertaining. Didn't really violate the spirit of either character, and left them both where they should be once it was done. Robert's speech to Cersei about "five and one". Sansa being assaulted during the riot in place of Lollys. There were changes that, while not excellent, at least made sense. You could point to the change and say "I understand why that change was made".
That stopped eventually. George liked to refer to it as a kind of butterfly effect, deviations requiring further deviations, but a lot of the deviations the showrunners came up with made very, very little sense, and often demonstrably weakened the material. Often to the point of being almost unwatchable. I posted in the Stannis thread, but here's a repeat of a cross section of some examples of horrendous show-writing...
1. No Pink Letter. Why does the Pink Letter matter? The Pink Letter is what provokes Jon into marching SOUTH and taking a wildling army with him to bring justice to Ramsay Snow. He breaks his vows and is determined to deplete the Watch of men at a crucial time. Without the Pink Letter, they're just killing him for bringing the Wildlings across. So why did they open the fucking gate for him in the previous episode, then? And if the Shaggy Dog rape of Sansa wasn't to "villain-up" Ramsay to make the Pink Letter hit harder, what was it FOR exactly?
Jon is frequently torn between his vows and his love for his family/friends. His decision (in the books) to march off to save a girl he believes is Arya is fundamental to his personality, his need to do the GOOD thing. The RIGHT thing. As Aemon said "Love is the death of duty", and Jon is willing to forsake his to save his sister. Thus his punishment/murder at the hands of the Night's Watch, who finally cannot forgive him any more. It's a powerful moment because it's the culmination of a 5 book arc. In the show, it's a capricious decision that makes very little to no sense, and seems to have been left in because "it was shocking".
2. Dorne and the Sand Snakes. We lose Arianne, we lose Quentyn, we lose "Fire and Blood", we lose the sub-plot to crown Myrcella (as due to Dornish primogeniture she is next in line for the crown, not Tommen). In its place we get the traveling road show of Jaime and Bronn, three absolutely gutted Sand Snakes that are horribly acted and scripted (and literally play paddy-cake in their jail cell). A Doran who does absolutely nothing and has no plans. A suddenly murderous Ellaria despite it being a complete reversal of her character from last season. And a ship sailing off with the sole heir of Dorne on it, now guaranteed to be murdered, likely triggering a succession crisis. Who came up with this plot? Children? What was the point of it?
3. We got an EXCESSIVE amount of Theon torture scenes in previous seasons, ostensibly to slowly build the myth of Ramsay Snow/Bolton, the horror of his existence of Reek, all to make his eventual casting off of the identity more powerful. Instead, Sansa is plopped into his story line and utterly hijacks it to "give her something to do". The thing she is given to do is "getting raped", after which she just sort of arbitrarily mopes around the castle a bit before the two of them abruptly kill a completely worthless ancillary character and jump off the battlements. Which, due to the absence of the winter blizzard that drove much of the plot in the novels, looks like suicide. Awesome!
4. Going back a bit, but what exactly was the purpose of the Jeyne/Talissa swap? What did we gain by that? Talissa was a complete anachronism, she stood out like a sore thumb. The way she was written and her personality in general actually under-wrote and diminished the challlenges other female characters faced and the ways they were restrained in this society by their gender...most principally Sansa, Brienne and Cersei. And what did we gain, for making that change? What did "Talissa" do that Jeyne Westerling could not have done? What was the point?
To say nothing of the fact that removing the Westerlings from the plot diminished the role Tywin played in Robb's downfall, and made Robb's decision to marry look born of selfishness rather than demanded by honor (thus echoing his father). You can argue it's a small point, but it's small character points like this that make for GOOD WRITING.
5. Jon drags the Wildling Army he just rescued from the coastal city of Hardhome up to the Gates of Castle Black and asks to be let in. Check out this map:
Spoiler: Click to View
Note the position of Castle Black, and of Hardhome. Remember he rescued them in ships.
Also remember they did not change the geography for the show. They publish Atlases and puzzle-maps of Westeros that look exactly like this. Now imagine how fucking lazy you have to be to write a scene like that. It's a little thing, but it's so preposterous it totally shatters your immersion.
6. By the same token, in last night's episode we have two armies clashing. One vastly outnumbers the other and has cavalry. Stannis is in the front rank when his tiny army is enveloped, on an open field. A scene or two later, he's staggering around in a woodland glade (??). All sounds of fighting have stopped (??) and there are only a couple of live men even on the scene (??). This is the kind of hilarious/galling continuity error that had people rolling in the aisles at the end of ME3. It's equally unforgivable here. Moreso even, given questions of budget and audience scale.
Jon is frequently torn between his vows and his love for his family/friends. His decision (in the books) to march off to save a girl he believes is Arya is fundamental to his personality, his need to do the GOOD thing. The RIGHT thing. As Aemon said "Love is the death of duty", and Jon is willing to forsake his to save his sister. Thus his punishment/murder at the hands of the Night's Watch, who finally cannot forgive him any more. It's a powerful moment because it's the culmination of a 5 book arc. In the show, it's a capricious decision that makes very little to no sense, and seems to have been left in because "it was shocking".
2. Dorne and the Sand Snakes. We lose Arianne, we lose Quentyn, we lose "Fire and Blood", we lose the sub-plot to crown Myrcella (as due to Dornish primogeniture she is next in line for the crown, not Tommen). In its place we get the traveling road show of Jaime and Bronn, three absolutely gutted Sand Snakes that are horribly acted and scripted (and literally play paddy-cake in their jail cell). A Doran who does absolutely nothing and has no plans. A suddenly murderous Ellaria despite it being a complete reversal of her character from last season. And a ship sailing off with the sole heir of Dorne on it, now guaranteed to be murdered, likely triggering a succession crisis. Who came up with this plot? Children? What was the point of it?
3. We got an EXCESSIVE amount of Theon torture scenes in previous seasons, ostensibly to slowly build the myth of Ramsay Snow/Bolton, the horror of his existence of Reek, all to make his eventual casting off of the identity more powerful. Instead, Sansa is plopped into his story line and utterly hijacks it to "give her something to do". The thing she is given to do is "getting raped", after which she just sort of arbitrarily mopes around the castle a bit before the two of them abruptly kill a completely worthless ancillary character and jump off the battlements. Which, due to the absence of the winter blizzard that drove much of the plot in the novels, looks like suicide. Awesome!
4. Going back a bit, but what exactly was the purpose of the Jeyne/Talissa swap? What did we gain by that? Talissa was a complete anachronism, she stood out like a sore thumb. The way she was written and her personality in general actually under-wrote and diminished the challlenges other female characters faced and the ways they were restrained in this society by their gender...most principally Sansa, Brienne and Cersei. And what did we gain, for making that change? What did "Talissa" do that Jeyne Westerling could not have done? What was the point?
To say nothing of the fact that removing the Westerlings from the plot diminished the role Tywin played in Robb's downfall, and made Robb's decision to marry look born of selfishness rather than demanded by honor (thus echoing his father). You can argue it's a small point, but it's small character points like this that make for GOOD WRITING.
5. Jon drags the Wildling Army he just rescued from the coastal city of Hardhome up to the Gates of Castle Black and asks to be let in. Check out this map:
Spoiler: Click to View
Note the position of Castle Black, and of Hardhome. Remember he rescued them in ships.
Also remember they did not change the geography for the show. They publish Atlases and puzzle-maps of Westeros that look exactly like this. Now imagine how fucking lazy you have to be to write a scene like that. It's a little thing, but it's so preposterous it totally shatters your immersion.
6. By the same token, in last night's episode we have two armies clashing. One vastly outnumbers the other and has cavalry. Stannis is in the front rank when his tiny army is enveloped, on an open field. A scene or two later, he's staggering around in a woodland glade (??). All sounds of fighting have stopped (??) and there are only a couple of live men even on the scene (??). This is the kind of hilarious/galling continuity error that had people rolling in the aisles at the end of ME3. It's equally unforgivable here. Moreso even, given questions of budget and audience scale.
Here's Dorne from the books:
And here's Dorne from the show:
This is the kind of shit people talk about when they complain about the show, and yet get hand-waved as stuffy "book purists" who do not recognize how much more "fun" and "engaging" the show is comparatively. Fortunately those arguments are starting to dwindle away, as even show fanatics are beginning to wonder just what the fuck it is they are watching.
I have to say, I got there a lot sooner with the books. I mean by a dance of dragons it's waffling meandering garbage. I'm honestly not sure why we ever go to Dorne at all. it does fuck all for the story, if indeed there is a fucking story.BloatedGuppy said:
Not a book reader but I found the season good. Here's my thoughts on the season:
The Dorne stuff was pretty cringeworthy, sending Jaime on a combat mission was already stupid enough. It showed promise early with the introduction of the Sand Snakes and Doran Martell but devolved into nonsense pretty quickly, the worst of it being the slutty Sand Snake and Bronn, finfic worthy dialogue, especially at the end and the dialogue in the prison cells. I did like the ending to the storyline with Marcella dying in Jaime's arms as Ellaria(?)'s poison kills her. I suspect that this storyline was mainly there as an excuse to get Jaime out of King's Land and to introduce Tristain into future storylines.
I loved the King's Landing storyline, I loved seeing Cersei lose control over Tommen and eventually sink herself in her efforts to destroy Margaery, establishing a Theocratic Military that doesn't answer to the king. I liked the High Sparrow guy, I'd be on board with his ideals and beliefs if you took all the hardcore fundamentalist religion stuff out of it. Some good set up for Season 6 too at the end with Cersei being furious after her walk of shame and the revival of Gregor Clegaine. The storyline at the Wall and Stannis was good too. I also enjoyed the Danaery's storyline too, I found her storyline quite boring in Season 3 seeing her stomp everyone, I like how they started to put some greyness into the storyline in Season 4 and 5 as it became clear Danaery's was great conquerer but not a good ruler.
Was disappointing seeing Sansa become the show's chew toy again, I was hoping after the end of Season 4 she would start playing the game like they teased it. Arya's storyline was a bit too slow for my liking, they dragged out the part of the story where she didn't know what was going on a bit too long for me.
Overall I liked the season but I felt the stakes were low for this season, with it mostly being build up for whatever's coming in Season 6. Every other season had its big moment which was build up throughout the season, Season 1 had the execution of Ned Stark, Season 2 had the battle of Blackwater, Season 3 had the red wedding, Season 4 had the purple wedding and the Castle Black battle.
This season didn't really have that moment, arguably it was in Hardhome with the slaugher of all the wildings, but that felt more like buildup to a future battle rather than the payoff for something being build through out the season. The battle between Stannis's army and the Bolton's could've been that moment, it was a hopeless battle for Stannis but it could've been a final hurrah for him and his men, sort of like the Red Wedding, the person we were rooting for lost but it would've still been epic.
Season 4 is still my favourite, the stakes felt the highest: The King was dead, Tyrion was on trial for his murder, the Wildlings were marching on Castle Black, everything they build up to had an awesome payoff.
The Dorne stuff was pretty cringeworthy, sending Jaime on a combat mission was already stupid enough. It showed promise early with the introduction of the Sand Snakes and Doran Martell but devolved into nonsense pretty quickly, the worst of it being the slutty Sand Snake and Bronn, finfic worthy dialogue, especially at the end and the dialogue in the prison cells. I did like the ending to the storyline with Marcella dying in Jaime's arms as Ellaria(?)'s poison kills her. I suspect that this storyline was mainly there as an excuse to get Jaime out of King's Land and to introduce Tristain into future storylines.
I loved the King's Landing storyline, I loved seeing Cersei lose control over Tommen and eventually sink herself in her efforts to destroy Margaery, establishing a Theocratic Military that doesn't answer to the king. I liked the High Sparrow guy, I'd be on board with his ideals and beliefs if you took all the hardcore fundamentalist religion stuff out of it. Some good set up for Season 6 too at the end with Cersei being furious after her walk of shame and the revival of Gregor Clegaine. The storyline at the Wall and Stannis was good too. I also enjoyed the Danaery's storyline too, I found her storyline quite boring in Season 3 seeing her stomp everyone, I like how they started to put some greyness into the storyline in Season 4 and 5 as it became clear Danaery's was great conquerer but not a good ruler.
Was disappointing seeing Sansa become the show's chew toy again, I was hoping after the end of Season 4 she would start playing the game like they teased it. Arya's storyline was a bit too slow for my liking, they dragged out the part of the story where she didn't know what was going on a bit too long for me.
Overall I liked the season but I felt the stakes were low for this season, with it mostly being build up for whatever's coming in Season 6. Every other season had its big moment which was build up throughout the season, Season 1 had the execution of Ned Stark, Season 2 had the battle of Blackwater, Season 3 had the red wedding, Season 4 had the purple wedding and the Castle Black battle.
This season didn't really have that moment, arguably it was in Hardhome with the slaugher of all the wildings, but that felt more like buildup to a future battle rather than the payoff for something being build through out the season. The battle between Stannis's army and the Bolton's could've been that moment, it was a hopeless battle for Stannis but it could've been a final hurrah for him and his men, sort of like the Red Wedding, the person we were rooting for lost but it would've still been epic.
Season 4 is still my favourite, the stakes felt the highest: The King was dead, Tyrion was on trial for his murder, the Wildlings were marching on Castle Black, everything they build up to had an awesome payoff.
The final episode felt kind of rushed to me. I liked most of the scenes in it, but I felt like it was a bit of a scramble to try and resolve everything and get every single character to their appropriate dramatic cliffhanger before the credits rolled.
I assume it's okay to spoil in this thread, so..
I still have a problem with the rape scene, even as someone who normally loves all the stupid exploitation bits in the show. Not because I don't think it makes sense, but because it's an overused and slightly offensive cliche to use rape as a stand in for actual character development. While it doesn't ruin Sansa's arc, it does mean I don't feel inclined to talk about it. That said, I actually kind of love Iwan Rheon and Michael McElhatton as the Boltons, almost every scene with them is wonderful.
Stannis' arc was controversial but as I've said elsewhere I actually have no problem with it even if it was sometimes quite obtuse and poorly explained. The ending was also wonderfully grim, which always makes me smile.
Arya's arc was great overall, but the final episode disappointed me slightly. I felt like it was trying to have its cake and eat it, although the final scene in the house of black and white was so visually bizarre it almost redeemed everything.
Dorne was an absolute mess. I'm glad it turned out to have a point at the end, but I'm genuinely confused as to why so much setup was required for what was probably about 10 minutes of actual plot (although, if we take the prophecy Cersei was told as a child literally, Myrcella shouldn't die yet). It's weird that the iron islands have dropped off the face of the planet and yet we somehow have time for this strangeness.
Cersei and the High Sparrow. I love Jonathan Pryce. He really nailed the transition from nice old man to nice old man who is fucking terrifying. Again, walk of shame scene was controversial but I actually found it to be the strongest of the
exploitation ("shocker") scenes. It was visually pretty tame, but it just kept on going past the point of discomfort which I found far more effective than a lot of the more visually horrible scenes.
Dany. I never actually seem to like Dany or her plotlines. Finally seeing a dragon in an action scene was admittedly very cool.
Tyrion. Tyrion needs a new arc. His old one finished and he's basically spent a season dicking around in Essos. To be fair, his story structure is baffling in the books as well.
Jon Snow. They foreshadowed the twist too much, I think. While I suspect most people knew it was coming simply by osmosis, those who didn't could have stood to have been genuinely surprised. Jon was the closest he's ever been to a generic fantasy hero in this season, so having him suddenly killed off (apparently) could have been a cool mindfuck. Revealing the army of the dead and the night's king in plain view was a mistake in my opinion, but even then it managed to be visually cool so I can deal.
I assume it's okay to spoil in this thread, so..
I still have a problem with the rape scene, even as someone who normally loves all the stupid exploitation bits in the show. Not because I don't think it makes sense, but because it's an overused and slightly offensive cliche to use rape as a stand in for actual character development. While it doesn't ruin Sansa's arc, it does mean I don't feel inclined to talk about it. That said, I actually kind of love Iwan Rheon and Michael McElhatton as the Boltons, almost every scene with them is wonderful.
Stannis' arc was controversial but as I've said elsewhere I actually have no problem with it even if it was sometimes quite obtuse and poorly explained. The ending was also wonderfully grim, which always makes me smile.
Arya's arc was great overall, but the final episode disappointed me slightly. I felt like it was trying to have its cake and eat it, although the final scene in the house of black and white was so visually bizarre it almost redeemed everything.
Dorne was an absolute mess. I'm glad it turned out to have a point at the end, but I'm genuinely confused as to why so much setup was required for what was probably about 10 minutes of actual plot (although, if we take the prophecy Cersei was told as a child literally, Myrcella shouldn't die yet). It's weird that the iron islands have dropped off the face of the planet and yet we somehow have time for this strangeness.
Cersei and the High Sparrow. I love Jonathan Pryce. He really nailed the transition from nice old man to nice old man who is fucking terrifying. Again, walk of shame scene was controversial but I actually found it to be the strongest of the
exploitation ("shocker") scenes. It was visually pretty tame, but it just kept on going past the point of discomfort which I found far more effective than a lot of the more visually horrible scenes.
Dany. I never actually seem to like Dany or her plotlines. Finally seeing a dragon in an action scene was admittedly very cool.
Tyrion. Tyrion needs a new arc. His old one finished and he's basically spent a season dicking around in Essos. To be fair, his story structure is baffling in the books as well.
Jon Snow. They foreshadowed the twist too much, I think. While I suspect most people knew it was coming simply by osmosis, those who didn't could have stood to have been genuinely surprised. Jon was the closest he's ever been to a generic fantasy hero in this season, so having him suddenly killed off (apparently) could have been a cool mindfuck. Revealing the army of the dead and the night's king in plain view was a mistake in my opinion, but even then it managed to be visually cool so I can deal.
While I do increasingly understand where you're coming from on a lot of things, I'd like to point something out.BloatedGuppy said:
Tyrion is also an anachronism. He's essentially a modern disabled person stuck in a pseudo-medieval world whose attitude is "fuck all this shit", but where exactly that attitude comes from is an utter mystery. It doesn't make sense. It gets brushed aside under the recurring theme that Tyrion is immensely socially privileged and this allows him to essentially "buy off" his disability which would otherwise doom him but that doesn't actually explain his extremely modern attitude towards it. Furthermore, in actual medieval history (at least in the Christian world) disability and disease were generally held to be literal acts of God, and thus both terrifying and awe-inspiring rather than funny or pitiable. The idea that people with dwarfism would be laughed at or used for comedy is distinctly renaissance.
Petyr Baelish is an even more extreme anachronism. He's a literal renaissance prince in a pseudo-medieval setting, and again, there's nothing about him, at least if we abide by the laws of dramatic realism, which explains why is what he is in the society he is.
Renley Baratheon is both an anachronism and a stereotype (albeit a flattering one). He's a sociable, flamboyant, fashion-conscious, exclusively gay man in a pseudo-medieval setting.
Danaerys Targaryen is an anachronism. Her reasons for disliking slavery are nonsensical without a humanist understanding of the world in which human beings are substitute for one another. People did condemn slavery before humanism, but they did so on the basis of divine law, not empathetic identification and especially not a kind of weird proto-feminist substitution of a woman's role in a patriarchal family structure with that of slavery.
..and here's why I don't care about any of this:
Anachronisms work because they are so much closer to us and to what we can comprehend than actual authentically medieval people would be, and thus they become a vehicle for us to play out our own ambivilent feelings towards the setting itself.
I've mentioned before that one of my favorite fantasy authors is Mervyn Peake. Ghormenghast has no realistic characters at all, only caricatures and anachronisms randomly thrown together for what they reprsent, not whether they are authentic. Steerpike is in my opinion one of the best anti-heroes in fiction because he is an anachronism, he is the rational, modern mind which rejects the insanity of the world he is being presented with, and that is not only a great source of dramatic and thematic conflict, it's also what makes the books relevant to a modern reader, and if books aren't relevant to their readers who are they relevant to?
I'm not necessarily defending Talissa as a character, just pointing out that calling her an anachronism isn't necessarily a criticism.
Overall, probably the worst series so far.
The Dorne plot in particular was bafflingly silly and pointless, and makes little sense even within the rules the show has established, quite apart from the books. Brienne's story doesn't even pay any attention to her role in the book, any more, which is a shame. They've removed a plot which featured her strongest character development, and replaced it with something wholly unremarkable and cliched. Finally, there's Stannis' arc, which just upsets me all round. It's nearly destroyed one of my favourite characters, fundamentally missing his very essence.
On the plus side, Jonathan Pryce was good, Walk of Shame was good, Hardhome was (mostly) good.
The Dorne plot in particular was bafflingly silly and pointless, and makes little sense even within the rules the show has established, quite apart from the books. Brienne's story doesn't even pay any attention to her role in the book, any more, which is a shame. They've removed a plot which featured her strongest character development, and replaced it with something wholly unremarkable and cliched. Finally, there's Stannis' arc, which just upsets me all round. It's nearly destroyed one of my favourite characters, fundamentally missing his very essence.
On the plus side, Jonathan Pryce was good, Walk of Shame was good, Hardhome was (mostly) good.
This is well argued, although I do feel Talissa is far more of a blatant 21st century insert than any of the characters described. If they'd taken time to explore how the ways in which she differed made life difficult for her...as they did for all those characters...and how she'd managed to survive as functionally a wandering commoner whilst sassing nobles on the battlefield with every breath, I might've been more forgiving of her. As it stands, she had none of the protections of birth and station some of those other characters had, yet suffered far less for her "abnormalities". Her eventual death is due to Robb's transgressions, not anything she's done.evilthecat said:
However, you've made good arguments, and I will resist saying she's an anachronism as if that alone summarized everything wrong with her as a character.
Oh, if only! I've read A Dance with Dragons so I knew what was coming in the finale and it still hurt like a bastard....incidentally, that was the part in the books where I concluded GRRM just really fucking hates Starks.Baffle said:
OT
I thoroughly enjoyed it (especially Hardhome), though the deviations from the source material and stuff that got cut out only got more and more noticable as the season went on.
- Stannis's march to Winterfell was so condensed I felt it robbed some of the impact of the sacrifice of his daughter. His men looked bedraggled and uncomfortable to be sure, but it didn't exactly look like the subzero, Eastern-Front-in-winter nightmare conditions that halted his entire advance in the books, drove men to cannibalism and would surely have forced Stannis to take the same desperate measures of his show counterpart. Also, Selsye suddenly realizing the horror of the situation and trying to rescue her daughter was a completely naff attempt at emotional manipulation: this is the same hardcore fanatic who already hinted at giving her daughter to the holy flames two seasons ago! And while I'm complaining, the resolution of the march was rubbish!
"Prepare for the seige!"
"There won't be time for a seige!"
*Five seconds later, the entire Baratheon army is massacred*
I did like Stannis's final scene in which he seemed to acknowledge his past sins have caught up with him and is resigned to his fate, though I'd have enjoyed it more if it hadn't meant the fucking Boltons won.
- The Faith Militant and High Sparrow were all kinds of religious fundamentalist awesome, but I was disapointed to see that their good aspects (protecting the smallfolk, escorting clergy from isolated town to town, feeding the poor) were largely cut out to make way for a rampant homophobia that seemed to exist only so the show could say: "Don't feel too cheerful about the Faith Militant delivering some *long overdue* justice to Cersi BECAUSE THEY HATE THE GAYS!" Smashing up the brothels and inns was cool though!
- What happened to all that Stark loyalism in the North? An old maid says the iconic line about remembering, then NOTHING happens at all....except of course for the old maid being flayed to death by Ramsay, because we can't have *anything* go right for the Starks can we now? Even Theon's rescue of Sansa seemed very downplayed, though everyone in our household cheered when he shoved Myranda off the battlements.
Not even a book reader and I agree with this 100%.BloatedGuppy said:
By the time Jon got gutted my eyes were already so glazed over from this tripe I didn't even react to it. Everything that went wrong this season did. Also, am I the only one who cracked up like a lunatic when Franken-Mountain carried Cersei away? That was like the most surreal shit I have ever seen in this show, and I can't explain why.
I've heard so many people complaining about how the Sand Snakes were "gutted" or adapted into morons, but I honestly can't remember *anything* they did in the books beyond calling a Doran a sissy at every opportunity. I'm not trying to be snarky because this complaint befuddles me: did I miss some grand conspiracy they were a part of?BloatedGuppy said:
I know Doran eventually gets around to thinking about hinting at the suggestion of uttering an implication that he has some semblance of a plan regarding the Targaryens (seriously, he was just needlessly secretive about that) and that he sort of offers the Snakes a place in it, but other than that, all I recall is the Doran-baiting and saying the Mountain was a jerk when his (supposed) skull shows up.
The Sand Snakes and Arianne plotted to crown Myrcella following Dornish succession law, triggering a civil war that they could hypothetically hope to rouse some support in. KILLING Myrcella wouldn't accomplish any such thing.Dragonlayer said:
They also didn't play paddy-cake, preen about their sinister pussies, or try to seduce Bronn.
I would never claim the Sand Snakes were incredibly memorable or extraordinary characters, but that doesn't excuse their frankly embarrassing rendition on the screen.
I wouldn't call it needless. Allying oneself with the Targaryens is hardly politically safe during Baratheon rule.Dragonlayer said:
The first couple of times I read the books, I thought the same, but lately (especially in light of what the series has given us) I've started looking on them more favourably. The main problem is that most of the storylines GRR Martin wrote have very little linking them to the overarching plot. They're more like a series of short stories, each based around a different theme.Hoplon said:
The Dorne story is an almost Shakespearean tragedy where the lack of communication between a father and his daughter causes her to embark on an ambitious scheme to prove her relevance, resulting in the death of her lover and the maiming of an innocent girl.
Brienne's arc examines what it means to be a knight, a soldier and a killer, and what such people become when the battles are over.
Tyrion's storyline is of a man at the lowest point he's ever been in his life, having turned his back on everything he had to live for, finding new purpose through his interactions with the people he travels with.
Thematically, the stories are really good, and show off Martin's incredible talent for world building, but when compared to the tight interconnected story of the previous three books, the sudden change was a disappointment.
The Dorne subplot wasn't all that engaging in the books and the fact they did it half ass in the show doesn't help either. Only thing I found positive out of this season is that the show has finally caught up with the books and Martin can quit wasting time and finish the next book.
Hmm, its a bit hard to say without going back and rewatching this and other seasons back to back to see which flows better, but I found this to be the weakest season. Not to say that it was bad or horrible though. Its just that usually when a Game of Thrones episode ends, I would say stuff like, "That's it? That hour flew by! Damn, now I got to wait a whole week? That's forever!". This season after around episode 2 until episode 8, I was all, "Hm, OK". This season was just feeling...boring I guess. Even the more talky episodes where its all politics and such seemed a bit meh. Those last three episodes are super great though. Don't think we have to really mark Spoilers for this, but just in case...
But I was fine with everything else. This season was definitely one of the weaker, if not the weakest season. Haven't abandoned the show (far from it), but here's hoping next season is a lot better!
I liked the Dorne stuff at first, but Ellaria just came across as idiotic. Doran clearly explains why going to war over Oberyn's death is stupid, and she's acting like he's a buffoon for taking the most logical and pragmatic route. The sand snake stuff was weird, and the fight scene they had was boring. Like, the fight Bronn and Jamie had with those 3 random Dornish guys was way more exciting. I didn't mind their personalities, but the fact they just followed Ellaria like idiots always bugged me. I did like Bronn's interaction with that one sand snake though, and compared to others I actually liked her finals lines to him. But seriously, Ellaria just brought everything down. Maybe if they expanded on her logic (or more lore with how Dorne feels about King's landing or something) instead of having her come across as some vengeful widower it would have been better.
Brienne's story also seemed like a weak link. After the first few episodes she just waits around. There are actual scenes of her just looking at the castle and doing nothing. I liked the ending of her final scenes and stuff, but I would have liked to see her training Pod or something. I guess this is pretty reminiscent of the Theon stuff from season 3, but I at least there things were happening.
I'm a bit torn on the Dany stuff. I didn't hate it or anything, but I felt like it was missing...something. It felt...off? I can't say it was bad, but maybe some things could have been tweaked there. Things were fine once she ended up meeting Tyrion though.
Also, a severe lack of Littlefinger this season was saddening.
Brienne's story also seemed like a weak link. After the first few episodes she just waits around. There are actual scenes of her just looking at the castle and doing nothing. I liked the ending of her final scenes and stuff, but I would have liked to see her training Pod or something. I guess this is pretty reminiscent of the Theon stuff from season 3, but I at least there things were happening.
I'm a bit torn on the Dany stuff. I didn't hate it or anything, but I felt like it was missing...something. It felt...off? I can't say it was bad, but maybe some things could have been tweaked there. Things were fine once she ended up meeting Tyrion though.
Also, a severe lack of Littlefinger this season was saddening.
But I was fine with everything else. This season was definitely one of the weaker, if not the weakest season. Haven't abandoned the show (far from it), but here's hoping next season is a lot better!
I actually really liked this season. Even by Game of Thrones standards, it was *daaaaark* and the stakes were super high. It really felt like this series "Empire Strikes Back" phase. The end of Act 2 where the story seems its most hopeless and just about everyone is at a personal low point. It's going to be super interesting to see where they go from here (especially since we're pretty much at the end of the books for most of the storylines).thejboy88 said:
Stuff I'm looking forward to in Season 6:
- Tyrion saves another terrible, horrible city from eating itself. Along with his friends Mr.Spider, Mr.Worm and Ms.Nice Lady. I can't wait to see him butting heads with the old Masters. They should have come to some sort of settlement with Daenerys while they had a chance
- Sansa and the rehabilitation of Theon Greyjoy. I was actually really happy that they gave Sansa something to *do* this season. She's spent the whole damned series sitting on the sidelines, just being some trophy to pass around (and this happens in the books too, where she has even less to do). It was good to see her get to go down into the trenches, have some legitimately terrible shit happen to her like everyone else, and have to figure out a way to pull herself out of it. Going to be cool to see where the heck she goes from here, and how much of the old Theon we get back.
- The return of knowing nothing. Jon Snow is coming back in some form. We all know this. Whether it's through Rhollor's crazy fire-voodoo, the natural affinity the Starks have for warging, or something else. He's going to come back and he's going to be super pissed. It should be a fun time.
- Cersei kills everyone and everything in King's Landing. They're dead, all dead, simple as that. I can't wait to see her get her revenge, and I can't wait to see the titanic fit of insanity she has when she finds out about Mycella. The books had Cersei gradually going more and more looney towards the end, and up until now the show hasn't really done that. She's gotten more petty on the show, and more impulsive, but not legitimately more crazy and unhinged yet.
I found myself highly annoyed by the "leave a light in the tower" scene, where seconds after she turns away from it, Sansa lights the candle. Seriously guys? You're pulling that cliche trope out and dusting it off? Why don't you just have them wait in their room all day for a phone call of utmost importance, only to have it start ringing the second they leave the room. It was annoying and stupid, and really ticked me off.
I also found myself annoyed with the Dornish woman killing the innocent blonde girl, because her boy toy had been killed in a legitimate duel. A duel he volunteered for. Her hatred is so fucking misplaced, and stupid that I just wanted to wring her neck.
I also found myself annoyed with the Dornish woman killing the innocent blonde girl, because her boy toy had been killed in a legitimate duel. A duel he volunteered for. Her hatred is so fucking misplaced, and stupid that I just wanted to wring her neck.
The other stuff, like with Tyrion was pretty cool, I enjoyed it, but I find myself more interested in Aria, and would like them to just focus on her for like an entire season. But that's just my personal enjoyment of the Faceless God sect, and my lack of enjoyment of most of the other stuff.
My thoughts: Stannis, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :'(
I know he had pretty much given up by the time he reached winterfell but goddamnit Mannis, where were your scouts?
Estimates have put Stannis's army at 1340 (although more then half of them were running) whereas the Boltons had 2016, a difference of 700..
A disadvantage sure but if Stannis really was the finest tactical mind of the 7 kingdoms, he could have had a chance. But no scouts meant the Stannis army were caught with their pants down out in the open by a cavalry force.
The fact that Stannis despite being at the front of his army somehow managed to hack his way back to the woods means he must have made an epic last stand and took down scores of Boltons though.
Anyways Ramsay was a friggin haxor. First able to do a disproportionate amount of damage with his 20 good men (and he knew which tents to go for too! You'd think Ramsay wouldn't be able to resist burning men alive in their sleep but instead he went for the horses, food supplies and siege weapons... How he knew precisely which tents to go is further proof he was using -noclip and -xrayvision) then somehow spawncommands the Boltons tons of cavalry they were explicitly stated not to have many off... Unless those were Stannis's own sellswords who had deserted him with what was left of his horses. Which makes sense I guess.
Anyways final episode ranting aside, I was entertained enough during the season and enjoyed the big setpieces, though wonder how they gonna keep pulling it off if hardhome alone was enough to blow most of their budget this season.
My main gripe was Dorne really, I'd have gladly seen it scrapped in favor of more screentime to something else. The one surprise I got from Dorne was Myrcella who was this sunny yet smart kid and and I was looking forward to having her around for future episodes as the one salvageable component of the Dorne story they can bring back to king's landing...
So of course she had to be killed off. Goddamnit. What was the point of it all?
I know he had pretty much given up by the time he reached winterfell but goddamnit Mannis, where were your scouts?
Estimates have put Stannis's army at 1340 (although more then half of them were running) whereas the Boltons had 2016, a difference of 700..
A disadvantage sure but if Stannis really was the finest tactical mind of the 7 kingdoms, he could have had a chance. But no scouts meant the Stannis army were caught with their pants down out in the open by a cavalry force.
The fact that Stannis despite being at the front of his army somehow managed to hack his way back to the woods means he must have made an epic last stand and took down scores of Boltons though.
Anyways Ramsay was a friggin haxor. First able to do a disproportionate amount of damage with his 20 good men (and he knew which tents to go for too! You'd think Ramsay wouldn't be able to resist burning men alive in their sleep but instead he went for the horses, food supplies and siege weapons... How he knew precisely which tents to go is further proof he was using -noclip and -xrayvision) then somehow spawncommands the Boltons tons of cavalry they were explicitly stated not to have many off... Unless those were Stannis's own sellswords who had deserted him with what was left of his horses. Which makes sense I guess.
Anyways final episode ranting aside, I was entertained enough during the season and enjoyed the big setpieces, though wonder how they gonna keep pulling it off if hardhome alone was enough to blow most of their budget this season.
My main gripe was Dorne really, I'd have gladly seen it scrapped in favor of more screentime to something else. The one surprise I got from Dorne was Myrcella who was this sunny yet smart kid and and I was looking forward to having her around for future episodes as the one salvageable component of the Dorne story they can bring back to king's landing...
So of course she had to be killed off. Goddamnit. What was the point of it all?
An unmitigated clusterfuck.
Like, did no one else see the goddamn Sand Snakes? They were bloody unbearable. And I'm not talking from a "it was better in the books" perspective (spoiler alert: they were better in the books). They were goddamn ridiculous purely on their own merits.
Did no one else see the Meryn Trant scenes? "Gosh, I sure hope the audience realises that the guy who killed Arya's teacher and beat Sansa was a bad dude. We'd better make him a violent pedophile as well!
It's properly gone down the shitter at this point. All those innocuous little changes have compounded into big changes and the train has well and truly left the rails. The writers seems to be suffering from some cruel delusion that they can write and the sad fact is that they, really, really cant.
Like, did no one else see the goddamn Sand Snakes? They were bloody unbearable. And I'm not talking from a "it was better in the books" perspective (spoiler alert: they were better in the books). They were goddamn ridiculous purely on their own merits.
Did no one else see the Meryn Trant scenes? "Gosh, I sure hope the audience realises that the guy who killed Arya's teacher and beat Sansa was a bad dude. We'd better make him a violent pedophile as well!
It's properly gone down the shitter at this point. All those innocuous little changes have compounded into big changes and the train has well and truly left the rails. The writers seems to be suffering from some cruel delusion that they can write and the sad fact is that they, really, really cant.
It was a really weak season overall, but I do find funny that some people criticize GoT as if they were hoping to watch Hamlet.
Anyway, I still haven't read the books, but everytime someone mentions them, I can see why they're mad, some changes are really weird. Another issue that comes since season one, is that obviously the show doesn't have the budget to make big scale battles, so they usually do the hard cuts from "Charge" to "Oh m'lord I can't feel me legs", which wouldn't be so bad, if some of these battles didn't have so much build up. Stannis spends the whole season preparing to invade Winterfell, sacrifices his own daughter (a move that is stupid not only because changes the character, but because it was clear that his men would abandon him, only a Jeoffrey-level leader wouldn't take that in consideration.) and after all those bad things, he seems decided to embrace death and go out with a bang, but no, hard cut to defeat (and teleport to a place far far away so Brienne could get to him).
The High Sparrow was cool, seeing Cersei dig her own grave was awesome, and by now, it seems clear that the only one who can plot his way to somewhere, no one screws with him (or if someone does, he just finds a way to use it in his favour), and I sincerely hope that he gets away with what he wants.
And Hardhome was amazing, but it also made me think that besides the Wall part, nothing matters too much, and so Jon should be the center of things for a while (ok, maybe he will, maybe he trully is the mythical Razor Ramon and stuff, but we still don't know). And now Danny could clearly become the only saviour of the world, because Dragons seem to be linked with the White Walkers, after all it is Ice and Fire.
Anyway, I still haven't read the books, but everytime someone mentions them, I can see why they're mad, some changes are really weird. Another issue that comes since season one, is that obviously the show doesn't have the budget to make big scale battles, so they usually do the hard cuts from "Charge" to "Oh m'lord I can't feel me legs", which wouldn't be so bad, if some of these battles didn't have so much build up. Stannis spends the whole season preparing to invade Winterfell, sacrifices his own daughter (a move that is stupid not only because changes the character, but because it was clear that his men would abandon him, only a Jeoffrey-level leader wouldn't take that in consideration.) and after all those bad things, he seems decided to embrace death and go out with a bang, but no, hard cut to defeat (and teleport to a place far far away so Brienne could get to him).
The High Sparrow was cool, seeing Cersei dig her own grave was awesome, and by now, it seems clear that the only one who can plot his way to somewhere, no one screws with him (or if someone does, he just finds a way to use it in his favour), and I sincerely hope that he gets away with what he wants.
And Hardhome was amazing, but it also made me think that besides the Wall part, nothing matters too much, and so Jon should be the center of things for a while (ok, maybe he will, maybe he trully is the mythical Razor Ramon and stuff, but we still don't know). And now Danny could clearly become the only saviour of the world, because Dragons seem to be linked with the White Walkers, after all it is Ice and Fire.