Game of Thrones season 5 - Your thoughts now that it's over

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't defend, and haven't tried to defend the quality of that pandering. All I've done is point out that your disappointment has to be predicated on naive expectations, or by definition you would not be disappointed.

So the only appropriate expectation for a television program is a rapid quality decline?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Rapid? Maybe not, but eventual yes. The tale of television is that quality is almost always inversely proportional to duration. I imagine that outside of the context of this specific debate, you've probably made similar observations, since most of us have. "The Simpsons was great for the first X seasons, but now..." Is it any wonder our fondest memories of QUALITY programming are of miniseries or short runs? Twin Peaks leaps to mind as a prime example.

There is definitely an observable trend wherein shows that outstay their welcome or exhaust the possibilities presented by their characters/world eventually observe a quality decline...sometimes gradual, sometimes rapid. I can think of several shows (The Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Sopranos) where the show remained consistently high quality until the run was over. Comedy seems particularly vulnerable to exhausting its popularity, as "brevity is the soul of wit".

However, I'd argue against the suggestion that GoT is subject to that phenomenon. For one thing, they're not cooking up new seasons/storylines on the fly in response to the happy news they've been renewed for one more year. There's a set arc for the series they are ostensibly working within. They have a set of source material that is popularly and critically acclaimed. When they've deviated poorly, it has seldom been in service of populist characters. You'll notice in my opening rant in this thread I didn't include the White Washing of Tyrion's character amongst my gripes, because it's fairly evident why that is happening.

I think there's a genuine talent shortfall occurring here. I don't know if it's one bad writer or several, or the influence of an incompetent showrunner, or any of a number of other possibilities. They were making outright bad television as early as season 2, always coinciding with overt deviations where they were forced to substitute their fiction for that of the books. If I say "de bad pussy" is extremely poor dialogue, does that make me a book purist with naive expectations of the medium? Or are we just calling a spade a spade?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Basically, what I'm hearing is that you think GoT is somehow special, but I'm not hearing a valid explanation as to why or how.

What? No. Not at all. What you're hearing is me saying it's perfectly possible to deliver a consistently high quality experience, so arguments like "It's television what do you expect" or "They have to deviate from the books" don't hold much water if what they come up with is crap. If you're delivering crap television, the buck ultimately stops with the creators. The rest of it is a wall of excuses trying to support this idea that crap television is an inevitability, and it really isn't.

You're expressing a preference and I think you're confusing it with something objective and universally shared by the GoT audience.

I have never speculated that my opinions are "objective". I don't start every sentence with a disclaimer of opinion, because when we're discussing media criticism it really shouldn't be necessary.

Your view of quality entertainment isn't the issue here, GoT isn't for you, it's for the largest possible audience. What that group wants, and expresses through their Nielson ratings determines what the showrunners do. That is not to say you should have an illusion of their hypercompetence, because those changes are a hard and ultimately self-destructive balancing act.

I'd be curious to see what interpretation of the Neilson ratings supported the atrocity that was S5's Dorne storyline, or the act of shunting their most popular character into a series of dreary, plodding scenes that somehow managed to be even more boring than the tedious chapters they were based on.

The point with TV is not to create something for ages though, it's make money.

The networks want to make money. Showrunners often want to leave a legacy/make the best art they can.

 

[Thyunda]

Unless those were Stannis's own sellswords who had deserted him with what was left of his horses. Which makes sense I guess.

This is exactly what happened. It must be. I made a similar comment when the cavalry appeared because I wondered where in Winterfell they were keeping them, but it makes perfect sense for it to be part of Ramsay's trademarked Master Plan.

 

[OhNoYouDidnt]

What part of, "That they've responded to (what they believe are) the tastes of their primary viewership, that has become more and more apparent." didn't you understand when you choose to ignore that I said it?

I get why, because unless you ignore that you can't go on about "unjustified" and "unnecessary", which sound so much better than, "I didn't like them."

Like BloatedGuppy said before me, I've never pretended that my personal opinions are the objective truth. When I call the show's changes unjustified and unnecessary, I mean that I think they're unjustified and unnecessary. I'm not going to add an opinion disclaimer every single time I use such adjectives, thank you very much.

For me, the changes are unnecessary and unjustified. I don't think the "primary viewership", whoever these people might be, would appreciate the utter tosh that the showrunners invent any better than the original source material. But even if they did, I don't care. This thread is about our personal thoughts about the show, and I've talked at length about mine.

You feel that the changes cannot be criticised because money (yes, I know, this is an extremely blunt summary, please don't jump down my throat), and that's okay. I disagree, but I don't think there's a point in continuing to argue about this. I want the show to be a bit more faithful to the books, and I lament that they're only moving further and further away. It's a shame. I'll just stop watching the show and wait for The Winds of Winter, because the show evidently isn't for me any more. Maybe it never was meant for me. Oh well.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Between your opinion forwarded to support your notion that your taste and quality are synonymous, it's not much of a viewpoint to me. Television is a mass market, generally shitty product.

So...while you're lecturing me on not conflating my tastes with quality, you're giving me a definitive statement on the quality of television based on "the history of television". Please do substantiate how the "history of television" establishes it as "shitty", without deviating into opinion.

Finding a gem in the midst of it, then complaining that it's rough and uncut is kind of nutty to me.

A gem! That also sounds suspiciously like a statement of opinion.

When you assert a positive claim, engage in debate, and then simply retreat into the hole that it's "Just my opinion" is nothing I'm going to spend time with here.

I'm sorry, were you actually operating under the delusion that there was an "objective" debate to be had on the subject of criticizing a piece of media? If so, you are definitively wasting your time. I'm beginning to get "Galloping Gish" vibes.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No, I thought this was a pack of people complaining that nobody takes them seriously or entertains their complaints. It turns out it was a pack of people looking to do that, as a way to further voice the complaints that are generally highly personal and worth ignoring. That's fine, and I'm happy to ignore that type.

That was word salad, Brass. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

Is the problem here that you're a fan of the show and you're a bit sore that I'm rather noisily shitting on it? You did choose to describe it as "a gem". Rather paradoxically after chiding me for what you believed was my naive perception that all television wasn't inevitably "shit".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Your struggles with reading comprehension are none of my concern, and neither is your attempt at deflection. I watched 3 eps of the first season and realized it was a trite, overacted mess so no, not a fan.

I'm curious at your description of it as a "gem" then. Where did that come from?

I loved the books, but I'm not blind to their many flaws either, not the least of which is that they may never actually represent a complete story which ends.

The books are indeed riddled with flaws. Some of which one would have thought a television program, with its emphasis on pacing, could have improved upon.

If the best you have to offer in defense of your views on something as trivial as a television show is nastiness

Alright, Brass, let's start over. Because you apparently perceive me as being "nasty", and I can assure you I've been getting the same vibe from you since you came wading in about the "naivete of my expectations". What point are you trying to make in all this that you feel I am overlooking?

I hear you saying that the quality decline of GoT was an inevitably due to the nature of the medium change creating adaptation decay. That the necessity of maintaining a large audience means perpetually pandering to said audience, at the cost of a more nuanced, intelligent production. Is that a fair summary?

What I'M trying to say is that the decline in quality I'm talking about isn't being driven by obvious pandering, by book to TV translation, by issues of budget and scale, etc. I complain about those things too, but that's me being finicky and I acknowledge that. I'm taking about quality slips that make no sense at all. That both show and book fans complain about. That don't appear to serve any pandering or sensationalistic purpose, but merely seem to reflect poor judgment.

 

[ServebotFrank]

I was so very irritated that we won't be getting Lady Stoneheart on the account of "oh she doesn't do much" despite her being a big deal in Brienne's and Jaime's story arcs. Cutting her was a big mistake, Brienne literally had nothing to do this season. There were numerous scenes where she kinda just looked at Winterfell while Podrick was out being Podrick.

Jaime's move to Dorne made sense. I imagine the show runners wanted a character that the audience was familiar to be introduced to Dorne rather than have just a brand new cast of characters. However it was such a shit storyline, nothing happened at all. Ellaria is a fucking idiot, she just tried to murder the King's sister at the same time her fucking nephew is on his way to King's Landing. Is she trying to get her family wiped off the map?

Stannis's arc started out strong, and slowly took a turn into Shit Town. I would've accepted Shireen's sacrifice if we had more scenes of Stannis struggling with the blizzard and not knowing what to do. Here it just looks like he decided to take the easy way out after what seems like one week of hardship. Also does Stannis like not believe in scouts? He could've easily won that battle with the Boltons if he used that strategical mind we heard so much about back in season 2. Sure he had less men but it looked like the Boltons were all on horses and there was a fucking forest he could use like right there. I don't know what the writers have against Stannis and Melisandre, in the books Stannis is kind of an idiot politically but he wasn't a crazy religious zealot.

Jon Snow's arc was pretty good except for the end. The mutiny had to happen and it was a mix. On one hand I liked how the show used the "Previously On" to its advantage to trick book readers into thinking that Benjen was coming back. On the other I didn't like how petty the Night's Watch got after Jon made literally one decision. In the books they turn on him once he declares for Stannis and tries to break his oath in order to save "Arya Stark" and gets stabbed. Here it's just weird, especially cause Alliser Thorne was made to look more honorable than his book counterpart. So it was weird to see all of that characterization for Alliser get thrown out the fucking window.

Sansa's arc was fucking terrible. I love the Boltons but Sansa had no reason to be there. It was to "give her something to do" but they should've just left her alone for a season. Maybe have her show up for a couple of scenes and use the extra screen time to maybe make Dorne less shit.

The next season looks like it will focus on the Iron Islands and the Riverlands. If Lady Stoneheart doesn't make an appearance then what the fuck was the point of the Brotherhood Without Banners?

 

[Breakdown]

Game of Thrones has turned into a handful of slickly produced, well acted scenes stitched together with incredibly stupid and nonsensical plotting.

 

[Somekindofgold]

To put as succinctly and to the point as possible.

I am still mad.

Can you point me to some of that acting? I keep hearing about it, try to watch another episode and it's like watching about half great actors, and half deeply mediocre ones. That they're being forced to interact in nearly every scene does I find, cast a bit of a pall on the whole thing.

In my opinion the best actors/characters were;

Tywin
Varys
Stannis
Davos
Melisandre
Ned
Big Bobby B
Salladhor Saan
Jorah
Mance
Papa Tyrell (I love how terribly incompetent yet always happy he is)
Queen of Thorns
Oberyn 'suffering from a severe migraine' Martell
Viserys
Joffrey
The High Sparrow

And a lot of them are dead now.

 

[the_dramatica]

Stannis must've been a real badass. 1,300x2(he lost half) cavalry disbanded an army of 100,000 wildlings.

Now historical battles have occurred with these numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montgisard , however 2,600 v 100,000 is just pathetic.

I'm really upset the season ended with little to no geopolitical warfare, as an armchair historian that was really the thing I enjoyed most about the show. here's hoping bealish comes out huge.

 

[Silvanus]

Sansa's arc was fucking terrible. I love the Boltons but Sansa had no reason to be there. It was to "give her something to do" but they should've just left her alone for a season. Maybe have her show up for a couple of scenes and use the extra screen time to maybe make Dorne less shit.

Actually, there's something I hadn't previously thought about: as Sansa's fled Winterfell with Theon now, that means there truly wasn't any point in the controversial scene (between her and Ramsay). There was previously the (slightly thin) justification that she's still working for her own ends, keeping quiet but secretly trying to take back her home... but now she's not playing that game any more. The scene was solely shock value.

If Lady Stoneheart doesn't make an appearance then what the fuck was the point of the Brotherhood Without Banners?

Give Arya something to do? Brienne's plotline in S4+5 has generally just been there to keep her busy, it seems.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Okay, to be honest, in comparison to the rest of the show so far this was easily the weakest season yet. But so were the fucking books! Okay, Dance of Dragons is more good than bad, but did the meaningless piffle of A Feast for Crows escape anyone's mind? When I think what this season could have been had it been completely faithful to the books, I'll happily take it as is. I liked that Brienne actually met up with Sansa, yes I said it! I liked that the Dorne subplot, while slapdash in execution, at least tried to tie itself somehow to the main characters, yes I said it! I liked that Tyrion and Daenerys met, yes I said it! I didn't miss Arianne being locked up in a dungeon or Sansa meandering around in the Eyrie or Cersei bitching to herself all the time or Sam being angsty and miserable or hours on end of side character Greyjoys or Brienne just piffling about at all!

If forced to score it, I'd say 6/10. Sue me, fuckers.