Game of Thrones - Well, Stannis fans, what do you think of him NOW? (Spoilers)

[DementedSheep]

Book reader here-> He what? That's...really out of the left field, Stannis seems to care about his kid in the books. Not only that but being associated with witchcraft and an unpopular religion in the first place isn't great if you want people on your side and publicly burning your own daughter is just stupid. Dose he want his men to turn on him? Although I suppose I shouldn't be surprised since they already had Jamie rape Cersei next to their recently killed kids body.

Only way I could see him doing this if he was desperate and she was near death.

 

[Silvanus]

George told them to do it so....

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...Martin told the showproducers to do it. Because he says it's going to happen latter in the books.

Well, the exact words were, "When George first told us about this..."

Remember, it cannot happen as it happens in the show: it's geographically impossible, and Stannis has given instructions to Justin Massey to fight for Shireen's birthright if he (Stannis) dies, indicating that there's no plan to do so before the battle.

That doesn't rule it out, of course: it can still happen, but it would have to be under different circumstances-- leading me (and some others) to believe that Melisandre and/or Selyse will do the deed (as they're actually with Shireen, which Stannis isn't). D&D may have been told that Shireen is sacrificed, and decided to make Stannis complicit themselves.

 

[Evonisia]

I just love how that Stannis scene happens immediately before what is easily the best scene Daenerys has ever gotten in the show. ***** finally learned to ignore all the bullshit advisors around her, or at least I hope so.

But to be honest, after that scene I promptly raise the middle finger to Stannis. That's some pitifully weak will right there, the lady must have broken him pretty damn bad for him to destroy his own lineage.

 

[Breakdown]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...Martin told the showproducers to do it. Because he says it's going to happen latter in the books.

At least that's what they're claiming.

I think Martin's lying to them to ensure only the books have the right ending. I mean, this is the guy who invented Littlefinger, Varys, Cersei etc. All of that backstabbing and intrigue comes out of his brain.

Maybe he's playing The Game of Game of Thrones.

 

[Evonisia]

I just love how that Stannis scene happens immediately before what is easily the best scene Daenerys has ever gotten in the show. ***** finally learned to ignore all the bullshit advisors around her, or at least I hope so.

But to be honest, after that scene I promptly raise the middle finger to Stannis. That's some pitifully weak will right there, the lady must have broken him pretty damn bad for him to destroy his own lineage.

Have we been watching the same show? That's all she ever does, and it's precisely why she keeps causing huge problems wherever she goes. She just ignores anyone with sense.

Then dropping all pretense of reasoning by just abandoning them. No more discussions about her morals that we know don't ever change. Just fly away and sod them all.

This is where she'll go back to them the next episode and everything will go back to normal, which will be disappointing.

 

[WolfThomas]

Book Stannis remains the same in my mind. The one true King.

Show Stannis, well I only hope he manages to kill a Bolton or two before Brienne stabs him with oathkeeper rescuing Sansa (I feel they've set that up).

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

The one with the strongest army has the best claim. Kings are conquerors or the descendants of them.

 

[TravelerSF]

I didn't like this choice by Stannis, especially since the show kinda forced it in (seriously, 20 men got into the camps and absolutely fucked their shit up? Come on.) but he still seems to be the best candidate for the Iron Throne in my opinion. So far I've been torn between him and Daenerys, but seeing how SHE dealt with her problems in this episode ("Hmm, the political changes I've implemented into the city I've overthrown seem to have created quite a bit of uproar and violent resistance... I know, I'll just FLY AWAY from my problems) I'm still more inclined to supports Stannis. At least he did the hard decision, something that ravaged his heart, to serve what he believed to be the greater good.

 

[Nirallus]

S5 is well on track to be the worst season yet. All of a sudden, Stannis is the fanatic and Selyse is the reasonable one. Maybe it was done to make the audience feel righteous when Brienne finally kills Stannis. Emilia Clarke has managed to get even worse at acting. The Sand Snakes are barely watchable, even without their Shatner-tier fight scene. Mace Tyrell was never the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he and Meryn Trant are cartoon characters now. Mace is dumb and Trant is a bad guy, we get it, D&D.

 

[balladbird]

The Sand Snakes are barely watchable, even without their Shatner-tier fight scene. Mace Tyrell was never the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he and Meryn Trant are cartoon characters now. Mace is dumb and Trant is a bad guy, we get it, D&D.

Can't help but agree with you on Trant. I find I'm almost always kinder to episodes of various media that attract scorn than others, but even I rolled my eyes at that scene this week. I mean, it's not enough that he's a violent thug who beat a defenseless woman and murdered for kicks? He has to be a pedophile too? If you say so...

Regarding the scene with Dany: Is it just me, or would the sons of the harpy have met with success far earlier in their campaign if they'd used just ONE of those throwing spears they chucked at the dragon on the queen instead, prior to its arrival?

As to the topic of discussion: The showrunners have compared the outrage created by the sacrifice scene to the "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" tendency humans have, and I admit, there's some merit to that. It's not like he sacrificed his daughter because he wanted to live that badly, or even just so he could seat himself on the throne. Considering that at this point Stannis has been led to sincerely believe that his becoming king is the only way mankind will be able to withstand the white walkers, it basically boiled down to all of humanity versus a single life in his mind. Kind of a "Last of us" style scenario, except with him making the opposite choice of Joel.

I understand why he made the choice he did, even if I don't agree with it, and agree that it's not the route book!stannis would go.

It's a Pyrrhic gesture anyway, though. It's obvious by his eyes at the end of that scene that Stannis' soul is dead now. I imagine this sacrifice will unhinge him, and make him all the more willing to spread blood for his causes. A Byronic twist, and all that.

 

[L. Declis]

Honestly, I think that this is rather par for the course for Stannis, and I hope we see some truly dark results for it; powerful results, but dark results. I also imagine there will be a reckoning between Davis and his King; Martin is very good at giving consequences to actions.

But yeah, Stannis has never been good, he has always been Lawful Neutral. Duty above all. Even killing his daughter and possibly ending his line is seen as acceptable if it allows him to unite the Seven Kingdoms and fight the White Walkers. Plus I'm sure the Red Lady could provide another child soon enough.

My personal pet peeve with the T.V. show is how the Unsullied (and a few weeks ago, Barristan the Bold, the best fighter in all the seven kingdoms) are supposed to be among the greatest armies in the world, and yet they're constantly getting killed time and time again by civilians with kitchen ware. Plus they seem to be completely unaware of even the basic tactics of a shield and spear, they just wander into the middle of five men and get killed.

Also, it just seems that Dany's story cannot decide where to go. She is getting married, no, he's dead. She will go to Westeros, no, she'll stay here. She'll rule, no, she'll sit and look stern for another season. Dragons! Except CGI is expensive, so no dragons until we need an asspull. I'm glad they keep showing Tyrion though, I feel they're lending a lot of weight to him being one of the Dragons, along with Snow.

So we all know that next episode will be the one where Snow gets stabbed, meaning that the show is more or less exactly caught up with the books? Dany flies off, dead Snow, Tyrion replaces Barristan, Stannis about to attack Winterfell, Censei in the dungeon, Ser Strong being awakened for the Maester to suggest trail by combat for Censei to get out (CLEGANEBOWL; GET HYPE!), Sansa will replace Lady Stoneheart, Bran is with the tree bloke, the show will be moving completely ahead of the books, right?

 

[Wiggum Esquilax]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...Martin told the showproducers to do it. Because he says it's going to happen latter in the books.

At least that's what they're claiming.

I think Martin's lying to them to ensure only the books have the right ending. I mean, this is the guy who invented Littlefinger, Varys, Cersei etc. All of that backstabbing and intrigue comes out of his brain.

Maybe he's playing The Game of Game of Thrones.

The only winning move is to rig the whole damned thing.

 

[Terminal Blue]

As to the topic of discussion: The showrunners have compared the outrage created by the sacrifice scene to the "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" tendency humans have, and I admit, there's some merit to that. It's not like he sacrificed his daughter because he wanted to live that badly, or even just so he could seat himself on the throne. Considering that at this point Stannis has been led to sincerely believe that his becoming king is the only way mankind will be able to withstand the white walkers, it basically boiled down to all of humanity versus a single life in his mind. Kind of a "Last of us" style scenario, except with him making the opposite choice of Joel.

Yeah. I think you've totally got it.

There's something very interesting about Stannis arc which I wish was conveyed better. Stannis in the books starts out as a cynic. He converts to a religion he doesn't truly understand out of empty pragmatism. To him it's nothing more than taking a chance to see if a new God will give him more stuff. A lot of people seem to merely expect that character to remain the same cynical Stannis forever. But the long night is here, and Stannis is believed by many around him to be the hero who is the only hope of ending it, and if that is true, then if he freezes to death in the snow then the world dies.

At what point does a person in that position have to get over their cynicism and realize that he doesn't just want the throne but actually needs it, whether it's good for him or not, whether it's easy to win or not, whether he has to sacrifice everything to get it or not? One of the reasons fans latched onto Stannis in the first place is that he seems to be the one king who knows what is really at stake and where the real battle needs to be fought, but it seems people don't want to take that to its logical conclusion.

Can a person truly be a hero if there is a limit to what they are willing to sacrifice? That's what I took from this, and it's kind of the in-universe moral of the Azor Ahai myth itself. It also ties into the broader theme that power always has a price. The people who refuse to pay are the cynics who sit on Dragonstone whining about how noone likes them.

 

[Nirallus]

My personal pet peeve with the T.V. show is how the Unsullied (and a few weeks ago, Barristan the Bold, the best fighter in all the seven kingdoms) are supposed to be among the greatest armies in the world, and yet they're constantly getting killed time and time again by civilians with kitchen ware. Plus they seem to be completely unaware of even the basic tactics of a shield and spear, they just wander into the middle of five men and get killed.

Right, I forgot to add those parts to my rant.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

My personal pet peeve with the T.V. show is how the Unsullied (and a few weeks ago, Barristan the Bold, the best fighter in all the seven kingdoms) are supposed to be among the greatest armies in the world, and yet they're constantly getting killed time and time again by civilians with kitchen ware. Plus they seem to be completely unaware of even the basic tactics of a shield and spear, they just wander into the middle of five men and get killed.

Agree with that. It seems the Unsullied are just ending up as Dany's storm troopers, purely there to die so you can see how much danger Dany is really actually in this time guys!

A few things I'd like to address, and please note I'm a show watcher, not a book reader. Thankfully there haven't been too heavy spoils in this thread but I do kinda hate it when discussion in the show immediately strays over into "WELL THIS HAPPENED IN THE BOOKS, OH WAIT THAT HADN'T HAPPENED YET?! LOL GET SPOILED."

First of all, how many bloody Sons of the Harpy are there?! Like, seriously, I thought it was just a Masters rebellion, of which only some of them rebelled. But no, apparently slaves are in on it and there are enough of them to swarm a friggin' stadium.

Secondly, Dany's husband is 100% probably evil and in on the Sons, what with the whole being late and being stabbed but not confirmed dead.

Lastly, as shitty as Stannis' position is in the show, I can understand why he burnt his daughter. It was very much the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." It's fucking awful, and the screams in that scene were horrible, but he was faced with three options:
March back to Castle Black and starve on the way there.
March forwards to Winterfell and die on it's walls.
Burn his daughter and have the Lord of Light pull some bullshit and save the day.

But then again, I suppose bullshit is just fine if 20 soldiers can sneak around a camp and set off simultaneous fires in every goddamn wagon.

I still think Stannis is the best chance for ruling the Seven Kingdoms and surviving the White Walkers, because Dany seems to be the kind of character that is terrible at every turn but pulls off cool stunts so people like her. Seriously, she has taken over a few cities and most of them have all fallen right back into chaos. Cut your losses and sail for Westeros, please!