Game Theory: Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion
- Thread starter MatthewPatrick13
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You're right, and they're still doing it even in the most recent Final Fantasy games.seiler88 said:
I will say, however, that the FF13 games do approach it in an interesting manner. Despite all its flaws, I do like the story of the FF13 Trilogy.
I always took it as finding your own way and following ancient traditions out of a sense of duty will only end up screwing you in a lot of games with religion as the enemy.
There are a lot of good yevonites in FFX, and its not the religious people that are causing the shit but rather the ones who figure they can manipulate the world using religion.
There are a lot of good yevonites in FFX, and its not the religious people that are causing the shit but rather the ones who figure they can manipulate the world using religion.
It's not just the Final Fantasy games; the Breath of Fire series has the same overtones when dealing their religion. A lot of Japanese games in particular like to use a syncretic hodgepodge of belief systems in their games reflecting a variety of faiths and values. These are almost all universally negative. I mean look Bayonetta and Devil May Cry; Oooh press X to torture Angels. Oh and kill God while you're at it. Even El-Shaddai, a game rife with Biblical over and undertones had a rather dim view of God's orderings of the world, his Angels, and their interactions with human beings. Even though God was ostensibly the force of good, he was at best an uncaring, uninvolved force until it came time to wipe out evil in the world. And who guides the player (Enoch) though his adventures killing Nephilim and fallen Angels alike? Why that would be Lucifer, oh I'm sorry Lucifel... you're so clever over there.
Personally, I find it rather tiresome and an easy out for a weak plot. While at the beginning the concept of "What you thought was good, isn't good but bad." was novel, the premise now is running thin. Every time I come across a game that that has that theme, especially using a church-like setting, I get bored quickly. I groan and roll my eyes, sometimes saying "Really?"; "That's right up there with taking on The Man."
Personally, I find it rather tiresome and an easy out for a weak plot. While at the beginning the concept of "What you thought was good, isn't good but bad." was novel, the premise now is running thin. Every time I come across a game that that has that theme, especially using a church-like setting, I get bored quickly. I groan and roll my eyes, sometimes saying "Really?"; "That's right up there with taking on The Man."
I think some very important points are being missed here. One thing you need to understand is that in most cases you are dealing with false gods who are either creating or co-opting a mythology for their own ends. Kefka was semi-omnipotent but he was a mortal who gained power. "Final Fantasy X" was based loosely around Roger Zelazny's "Lord Of Light" where the church was developed using high technology, with the stated goal of preventing the advancement of technology "until people were ready for it" (which would never come or be accepted due to the status quo serving the controlling elite). In the case of "Final Fantasy X" in particular it should be noted that there actually WAS an apocalypse caused by high technology and the current social order was created to prevent that from happening again.
One thing that should be noted is that in Final Fantasy, ultimately the REAL divine beings play some role in the downfall of the pretenders. This can be as subtle as using white magic, invoking "holy" abilities which for whatever reason the so called "god" isn't granting and thus can't shut down to prevent them from being used against him. Indeed so called White, or Holy magic (oftentimes with a spell called "Holy") is usually required to be used, and used correctly, to defeat a lot of the final battles. But more so than that, consider in the "damning" "Final Fantasy X" Tidus himself pretty much doesn't exist, he's a creation of The Fayth with the specific goal of throwing down the order being talked about here. You more or less have the equivalent of god, turning on the pope, with Tidus being a manifestation of power (sort of like one can argue Jesus as an extension of god). Later games in the series deal with the question of the soul, as the series which is inspired by Lord Of Light uses the same basic technology including a sort of "soul battery" where the spirits of the dead are stored (in Lord Of Light they go futher with it though, tying it to a brain transfer technology that reincarnates people into different bodies, in Lord Of Light the pretenders have assumed the guise of Hindu deities... think of it as transhumanism being exploited in the guise of religion), one of the later plot threads deals specifically with the question as to whether the Tidus you knew (rather than the very different man he was based on) actually had a soul or was merely an extension of divine power... a power which had moved on and left humanity to it's own devices.
In "Final Fantasy 7" the religious connotations are among the most obvious. I think probably more people of my generation learned what "Sepiroth", "Jenovah", and about things like the "Tree Of Life" due to being interested in that game than from any other source. However in this game it's important to note that ALL of this is turned on it's head in the last act. Basically you have "Holy" (God/Good) being invoked to protect earth from Meteor (The Devil/Evil, also sort of based on the mythology of Tiamat and the actual meteor), but it happens too late because humanity had basically turned it's back on religion, and indeed the bad guys were sucking up the very power, running a literal power company, that would eventually be needed to save everyone. What's more the acts of man to save itself, via things like trying to fire a missile at Meteor, fail... basically the real "God" everyone has forsaken is the only answer. The ending of the game pretty much has Holy stepping in to try and save the world, but it's pointed out that due to the stupidity of humanity it's too late, and the devestation is massive. The ending of the game makes it questionable who survived and who did not. Indeed, while contradicted by sequels, it could be argued that originally humanity was deemed unworthy and was pretty much erased, and Red's people inherited the earth. Of course "Advent Children" defined things a little differently, but it should be noted that it literally involves the hero finding peace by briefly visiting heaven before being sent back to the mortal plane.
Now granted, different games have different overall logics behind them, but I do not think you can argue any kind of real "universal" message behind the series. Unless of course it's basically that organized religion and the mechinations of man take us away from the divine and the actual truth. It seems most accurate to say that it's anti-organized religion, as they tend to produce false gods. In "Final Fantasy 7" though it seems that the message has religions connotations but ultimately seems to be anti-corporate, and perhaps anti-technology. On a lot of levels it's like that "Insane Clown Posse" song "Miracles" that people laugh about, where the song is pretty much saying is that science is irrelevant since everything we're seeing is actually a miracle created by god and thus the "why" doesn't much matter. In the case of "Final Fantasy 7" this is literally true because the technology is being powered by energy vampired out of the divine force holding the planet together.
That said it's probably true that some of the games do have the message mentioned. I did not play the portable game mentioned, but it does seem like it could be a giant mind screw as well, the whole "video game character, confronted with the fact that he's a character in a video game" schtick.
Now, if you want to get into a game that has more of the message being talked about here, the series to look at would probably be "Shin Megami Tensei" in that one they even spell out what your doing in some titles. Of course it can also be argued that the divine forces in that game are portrayed as genuine, your just elevated by some means to eventually play at their level. I mean in some games like Nocturne the world pretty much ended. In the "Persona" spin off it seems to use a sort of logic similar to DC's "Sandman" where gods and such are very powerful, but the actual real powers are primordial universal forces like death which exist far beyond that level. Hence the whole "Memento Mori" thing in "Persona 3", basically when even gods can die your time as a very mortal being is of course going to be limited, no matter how powerful you become, and what you do in the course of the story (which gets pretty crazy) at the end death still takes you (even if he's kind of your friend).
One thing that should be noted is that in Final Fantasy, ultimately the REAL divine beings play some role in the downfall of the pretenders. This can be as subtle as using white magic, invoking "holy" abilities which for whatever reason the so called "god" isn't granting and thus can't shut down to prevent them from being used against him. Indeed so called White, or Holy magic (oftentimes with a spell called "Holy") is usually required to be used, and used correctly, to defeat a lot of the final battles. But more so than that, consider in the "damning" "Final Fantasy X" Tidus himself pretty much doesn't exist, he's a creation of The Fayth with the specific goal of throwing down the order being talked about here. You more or less have the equivalent of god, turning on the pope, with Tidus being a manifestation of power (sort of like one can argue Jesus as an extension of god). Later games in the series deal with the question of the soul, as the series which is inspired by Lord Of Light uses the same basic technology including a sort of "soul battery" where the spirits of the dead are stored (in Lord Of Light they go futher with it though, tying it to a brain transfer technology that reincarnates people into different bodies, in Lord Of Light the pretenders have assumed the guise of Hindu deities... think of it as transhumanism being exploited in the guise of religion), one of the later plot threads deals specifically with the question as to whether the Tidus you knew (rather than the very different man he was based on) actually had a soul or was merely an extension of divine power... a power which had moved on and left humanity to it's own devices.
In "Final Fantasy 7" the religious connotations are among the most obvious. I think probably more people of my generation learned what "Sepiroth", "Jenovah", and about things like the "Tree Of Life" due to being interested in that game than from any other source. However in this game it's important to note that ALL of this is turned on it's head in the last act. Basically you have "Holy" (God/Good) being invoked to protect earth from Meteor (The Devil/Evil, also sort of based on the mythology of Tiamat and the actual meteor), but it happens too late because humanity had basically turned it's back on religion, and indeed the bad guys were sucking up the very power, running a literal power company, that would eventually be needed to save everyone. What's more the acts of man to save itself, via things like trying to fire a missile at Meteor, fail... basically the real "God" everyone has forsaken is the only answer. The ending of the game pretty much has Holy stepping in to try and save the world, but it's pointed out that due to the stupidity of humanity it's too late, and the devestation is massive. The ending of the game makes it questionable who survived and who did not. Indeed, while contradicted by sequels, it could be argued that originally humanity was deemed unworthy and was pretty much erased, and Red's people inherited the earth. Of course "Advent Children" defined things a little differently, but it should be noted that it literally involves the hero finding peace by briefly visiting heaven before being sent back to the mortal plane.
Now granted, different games have different overall logics behind them, but I do not think you can argue any kind of real "universal" message behind the series. Unless of course it's basically that organized religion and the mechinations of man take us away from the divine and the actual truth. It seems most accurate to say that it's anti-organized religion, as they tend to produce false gods. In "Final Fantasy 7" though it seems that the message has religions connotations but ultimately seems to be anti-corporate, and perhaps anti-technology. On a lot of levels it's like that "Insane Clown Posse" song "Miracles" that people laugh about, where the song is pretty much saying is that science is irrelevant since everything we're seeing is actually a miracle created by god and thus the "why" doesn't much matter. In the case of "Final Fantasy 7" this is literally true because the technology is being powered by energy vampired out of the divine force holding the planet together.
That said it's probably true that some of the games do have the message mentioned. I did not play the portable game mentioned, but it does seem like it could be a giant mind screw as well, the whole "video game character, confronted with the fact that he's a character in a video game" schtick.
Now, if you want to get into a game that has more of the message being talked about here, the series to look at would probably be "Shin Megami Tensei" in that one they even spell out what your doing in some titles. Of course it can also be argued that the divine forces in that game are portrayed as genuine, your just elevated by some means to eventually play at their level. I mean in some games like Nocturne the world pretty much ended. In the "Persona" spin off it seems to use a sort of logic similar to DC's "Sandman" where gods and such are very powerful, but the actual real powers are primordial universal forces like death which exist far beyond that level. Hence the whole "Memento Mori" thing in "Persona 3", basically when even gods can die your time as a very mortal being is of course going to be limited, no matter how powerful you become, and what you do in the course of the story (which gets pretty crazy) at the end death still takes you (even if he's kind of your friend).
I always thought it was a cultural thing. It's not that Japan is anti-religion or anti-Christian, rather the wave of Portuguese Catholic missionaries engaged in a variety of conspiracies that undermined Japans national sovereignty and/or society. Picking a few key parts from a lengthy wiki [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Roman_Catholicism_in_Japan] article:Alterego-X said:
So what you typically see in Japanese video games is a fantastical recreation of the countries actual experience with the Portuguese Jesuits. They preached 'honourable poverty' while they themselves got rich off trade. They gave advanced weapons to warlords in exchange for religious conversion. That left a unique mark on Japanese culture, one that's still echoing today in their works of fiction. I really doubt it's meant to be spiteful or 'anti' anything.
Kind of, yes.seiler88 said:
From a game design standpoint, having a benevolent omnipotent being obviously presents some balancing problems. If there is only one God, and that God is on the players side, how do you present the player with a challenge? Your obvious options are to have the God not intervene (In which case you have to answer the question 'why am I working for him?') or to arbitrarily limit his powers or come up with some reason why he can't just give you the victory immediately. Neither of those answers make much sense unless you dilute the God's power to the point where you aren't discussing a God anymore though.
The obvious answer to this conundrum is of course to add a second powerful being on the same level so that you aren't just pitting one player plus an all-powerful deity against a foe that must (by definition) be weaker. Instead you're pitting the player and their God against an evil God and its followers. Introducing that second god removes the 'monotheistic' part of the clause though.
Most of the ways to involve only a single God and not have that God be overpowered tend to feel like varying degrees of BS. Unless you're intentionally trying to make a game based on a real religion, there's just no reason to not add a second opposing version of the deity to balance things out.
Religion in Final Fantasy is not something hidden... its actually pretty obvious. Not sure why anyone needs a video to point this out. Also, this is a positive aspect of the game series. Its more Anti-Corruption. Of course the corrupt religious organization portrayed in the games is the enemy. Makes sense to me.
basically, this video was utterly pointless. Its about the same as if you made a video pointing out that there is music in Rock Band games.
basically, this video was utterly pointless. Its about the same as if you made a video pointing out that there is music in Rock Band games.
"Some of these claims may be shocking."
Um. Not really. The Final Fantasy community has been aware of this since... forever.
That said, the situation is a little bit more nuanced than "religion is evil." Final Fantasy is anti-dogma and pro spirituality. Hence why the Cetra and the lifestream are presented as good in FF7, as a counter balance to Sephiroth, who is evil. I think the central theme is more about thinking for yourself, and nt having blind faith in an institution or an individual.
In fact, most of the villains in question have more in common with Satan than God. Typically a mortal, like Kefka or Sephiroth, attempts to rise to Godhood through some third party. As a result of their own hubris, they are defeated. Essentially they have a literal God complex. Then there's the symbolism in game like Kingdom Hearts, which is, if anything, pro spirituality. The Kingdom keys used by Sora and Mickey are literally the keys to the kingdom of heaven in the Catholic Church. The door to Kingdom Hearts is heaven, a realm of light and power. Sora and company are essentially the keepers of this power, while the villains typically try to gain this power in order to ascend to Godhood. The central theme is always people trying to gain power they were never supposed to have. The anti-dogma message is still present, but there's more to it than religion=evil.
Um. Not really. The Final Fantasy community has been aware of this since... forever.
That said, the situation is a little bit more nuanced than "religion is evil." Final Fantasy is anti-dogma and pro spirituality. Hence why the Cetra and the lifestream are presented as good in FF7, as a counter balance to Sephiroth, who is evil. I think the central theme is more about thinking for yourself, and nt having blind faith in an institution or an individual.
In fact, most of the villains in question have more in common with Satan than God. Typically a mortal, like Kefka or Sephiroth, attempts to rise to Godhood through some third party. As a result of their own hubris, they are defeated. Essentially they have a literal God complex. Then there's the symbolism in game like Kingdom Hearts, which is, if anything, pro spirituality. The Kingdom keys used by Sora and Mickey are literally the keys to the kingdom of heaven in the Catholic Church. The door to Kingdom Hearts is heaven, a realm of light and power. Sora and company are essentially the keepers of this power, while the villains typically try to gain this power in order to ascend to Godhood. The central theme is always people trying to gain power they were never supposed to have. The anti-dogma message is still present, but there's more to it than religion=evil.
I don't think that Final Fantasy is against organized religion as a whole. It seems to be more anti-Christian since the main antagonists after Kefka are obsessed with becoming god. Ironically, it's considered a sin for mortals to call themselves god, or worship false idols in Christianity. I don't see what the big deal is, Final Fantasy isn't the only game that's against "religion". SMT does the same thing, but in a more subtle manner. It takes some really brass balls to suggest that the Abrahamic gods may or may not be evil.
Final Fantasy seems to have no problem with crystal worship in the purest form. Animism. The crystals seem to be the one good spiritual force in their universe.
Occasionally you get one corrupted by the bad guys, or the crystal religion goes overboard, but it's quite clear overall that unless you've got the crystals there, pure and keeping everything in balance, the whole world goes to hell. You can't even take them away or everything collapses.
Of course the crystals don't really have a personality or much agency - which is the best way for something with that much power to be.
Occasionally you get one corrupted by the bad guys, or the crystal religion goes overboard, but it's quite clear overall that unless you've got the crystals there, pure and keeping everything in balance, the whole world goes to hell. You can't even take them away or everything collapses.
Of course the crystals don't really have a personality or much agency - which is the best way for something with that much power to be.
Final fantasy never struck me as anti religious, just anti western religions.
At least it?s not as bad as shin megami tensei, the second game has you killing the Christian god because he?s trying to kill everybody with a giant death beam, and this is after he caused a nuclear war and flooded Tokyo.
At least it?s not as bad as shin megami tensei, the second game has you killing the Christian god because he?s trying to kill everybody with a giant death beam, and this is after he caused a nuclear war and flooded Tokyo.
Please, please, PLEASE don't say "Christian" when you in fact mean Catholic. Catholicism reveres the Pope, the broader general "Christianity" does not necessarily agree. Catholicism has a Purgatory, Christianity at large does not. The Pieta is a Catholic work; protestant Christianity would take the stand that while a masterful sculpture, it's either not Jesus and Mary (They were Jews, not white people, and she probably didn't look like she was 25 when her son was dying at the age 32,) or that it's an idol and that God would rather have you doing the things he says (Be good to each other, don't kill or steal or covet, work hard but then be sure to take a break and appreciate the good things!) than worshipping a damn stupid rock that's not even one one-thousandth as cool as even the smallest cell in your body. That's probably my only complaint.
Oh, and Final Fantasy Legend was actually part of the SaGa series, wasn't it? And not a proper FF title?
But yeah, nice insights. I doubted from the first that it was any overt hostility toward any actual God, if He Is. I mean, if there is a God, he's by definition better than we could comprehend, so you can't really be in rejection of that idea, but rather just the way human beings represent Him, if He Is. So it's good that in the end you seem to think its less that and more a denunciation of blind idiotic violent zealotry.
Oh, and Final Fantasy Legend was actually part of the SaGa series, wasn't it? And not a proper FF title?
But yeah, nice insights. I doubted from the first that it was any overt hostility toward any actual God, if He Is. I mean, if there is a God, he's by definition better than we could comprehend, so you can't really be in rejection of that idea, but rather just the way human beings represent Him, if He Is. So it's good that in the end you seem to think its less that and more a denunciation of blind idiotic violent zealotry.
Ha. Just Final Fantasy? This is a common trope of almost all eastern RPGs. In fact, I used to say that its not a proper JRPG unless you are killing God at the very end.
Not Christian =/= Not Religious.Alterego-X said:
OT:
Neat ... um ... why are we getting the old GTs? couldn't we get the newer ones as well instead of releasing them in order?
Weren't Christianity and Catholicism the same thing up until the Protestant Reformation?Bluestorm83 said: