Game Theory: Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion
- Thread starter MatthewPatrick13
- Start date
Holy. Shit.
Are you telling me, O wise one, that FF games have religious themes in them? I have been enlightened. I shall go forth and spread to word to those that still live in the dark.
...Seriously? That is as shocking a statement as "Magic exists in FF".
Are you telling me, O wise one, that FF games have religious themes in them? I have been enlightened. I shall go forth and spread to word to those that still live in the dark.
...Seriously? That is as shocking a statement as "Magic exists in FF".
While his assessment of modern-day Japan stands reasonably well, I feel the need to correct some of the historical facts pertaining to Japan's Shogun era expressed by the video's cultural expert, Gaijin Goombah. Apologies if this information is already common knowledge, but, since no one has yet brought it up, I thought it might bear discussion.
The main error here is that the year given for Hideyoshi Toyotomi?s ?banning of Christianity? is 1857. Hideyoshi issued his directive to purge the Jesuits in 1587. This remarkable oversight of two and a half centuries obscures Hideyoshi's motives, rendering Gaijin Goombah's theory, that Hideyoshi considered Christian worship incompatible with reverence for the Emperor, as extremely flawed.
In truth, the Emperor as political expedient was a very Meiji, i.e. late nineteenth-century, idea, itself conceived by opportunistic samurai from Japan's southern provinces. Hideyoshi, who never formally accepted the mantle of "Shogun" and lived in an era of fragmented authority, would have been unlikely to behave in such a way. Rather, his actions reflected the more direct needs of his time: to put down the threat of armed rebellion, to end rumors of Japanese slave trading, and to limit the influence of foreign powers. His decree of 1587 did not ban Christianity outright, either, but merely expelled the Jesuits, only one of several types of missionaries active in Japan at the time. Even this edict was not widely observed, which may have led to Hideyoshi's more extreme statement of crucifying twenty-six Christians to put his message through.
Christianity *was* eventually outlawed in Japan, by Tokugawa Ieyasu, the founder of the Shogunate which brought an end to the Warring States Era. However, directly linking this ban to the dearth of Christians in modern Japan, as the video does, is problematic. It is more likely that Christianity's foreign values simply never took root in Japan, though, granted, they were never given much chance. A parallel can be seen in Japan's attitude towards socialism in the Meiji era. The oligarchic leaders of the time were fearful of socialism's potential impact on their power, and so took steps to discourage it, yet there was never any great outpouring of support for the movement to begin with. Its values were simply not popular at that juncture.
The above observations are meant to counter the simplistic notion that Christianity failed to flourish in Japan merely because "the Emperor forbade it," or that any decree would be so final or blindly followed as to utterly quash a religion for hundreds of years. This conceit carries the echoes of Western bias, the stereotype of a god-king suppressing his people and the ?one true faith.? The reality is somewhat more complex, human, and subtle.
As a final note, though quibbling with dates and technicalities may seem pedantic to some, it is important to recognize that Hideyoshi Toyotomi is one of the most prominent figures in Japanese history, a quintessential samurai and founding father, and were a Japanese author to casually assert that Americans owe their democracy to a bill passed by King Washington in 1492, they would almost certainly take exception.
EDIT: Since watching the segment again, I should note that Gaijin Goombah does address the cultural factors I mention throughout my post; in that respect, we are in agreement. My criticisms of his facts remain, as does my contention regarding his position on the Emperor, though I am pleased he chose to mute himself somewhat on this point with broader arguments.
The main error here is that the year given for Hideyoshi Toyotomi?s ?banning of Christianity? is 1857. Hideyoshi issued his directive to purge the Jesuits in 1587. This remarkable oversight of two and a half centuries obscures Hideyoshi's motives, rendering Gaijin Goombah's theory, that Hideyoshi considered Christian worship incompatible with reverence for the Emperor, as extremely flawed.
In truth, the Emperor as political expedient was a very Meiji, i.e. late nineteenth-century, idea, itself conceived by opportunistic samurai from Japan's southern provinces. Hideyoshi, who never formally accepted the mantle of "Shogun" and lived in an era of fragmented authority, would have been unlikely to behave in such a way. Rather, his actions reflected the more direct needs of his time: to put down the threat of armed rebellion, to end rumors of Japanese slave trading, and to limit the influence of foreign powers. His decree of 1587 did not ban Christianity outright, either, but merely expelled the Jesuits, only one of several types of missionaries active in Japan at the time. Even this edict was not widely observed, which may have led to Hideyoshi's more extreme statement of crucifying twenty-six Christians to put his message through.
Christianity *was* eventually outlawed in Japan, by Tokugawa Ieyasu, the founder of the Shogunate which brought an end to the Warring States Era. However, directly linking this ban to the dearth of Christians in modern Japan, as the video does, is problematic. It is more likely that Christianity's foreign values simply never took root in Japan, though, granted, they were never given much chance. A parallel can be seen in Japan's attitude towards socialism in the Meiji era. The oligarchic leaders of the time were fearful of socialism's potential impact on their power, and so took steps to discourage it, yet there was never any great outpouring of support for the movement to begin with. Its values were simply not popular at that juncture.
The above observations are meant to counter the simplistic notion that Christianity failed to flourish in Japan merely because "the Emperor forbade it," or that any decree would be so final or blindly followed as to utterly quash a religion for hundreds of years. This conceit carries the echoes of Western bias, the stereotype of a god-king suppressing his people and the ?one true faith.? The reality is somewhat more complex, human, and subtle.
As a final note, though quibbling with dates and technicalities may seem pedantic to some, it is important to recognize that Hideyoshi Toyotomi is one of the most prominent figures in Japanese history, a quintessential samurai and founding father, and were a Japanese author to casually assert that Americans owe their democracy to a bill passed by King Washington in 1492, they would almost certainly take exception.
EDIT: Since watching the segment again, I should note that Gaijin Goombah does address the cultural factors I mention throughout my post; in that respect, we are in agreement. My criticisms of his facts remain, as does my contention regarding his position on the Emperor, though I am pleased he chose to mute himself somewhat on this point with broader arguments.
Killing false or evil gods is a standard sci-fi and fantasy story. Hell, the Stargate franchise is built on it. Doctor Who does it at least once a season. The Archdemon from Dragon Age is a god, the Reapers from Mass Effect are insulted by the comparison, and the entire Greek pantheon is wiped out in God of War.
Agreed, sometimes I think the users here are too uptight and at times, stuck up when it comes to entertainment. I mean just like with Jim, if you can't tell that MatPat acts and sounds this way for comedic purposes, then sorry, you're too serious and have no sense of humour whatsoever in my opinion.Saltyk said:
I don't think I've ever seen such a poorly executed video idea. Final Fantasy uses a wealth of complex and nuanced religious ideas and terminology, from a variety of religions. Asking if Final Fantasy is "Anti-Religion" or "Anti-God" sort of misses the point. It's like saying that Evangelion is bad because Shinji is a wuss. I understand that MatthewPatrick would like to give us more discussions on this topic, but he's clearly demonstrated he's not competent to handle them.
Final Fantasy advocates deicide? What is a statement like supposed to mean?
If how is Yevon becoming Sin an Adam and Eve metaphor?
Don't you think a Four part battle based on Dante's Divine Comedy deserve a little more unpacking?
Why do you have a Gumba explaining why your question is wrong at the end? Couldn't we have started with him and talked about something interesting? Does the Gumba have a video series, that I can watch instead of Matthew Patrick?
Wouldn't it have been a more interesting video to dissect the Eastern and Western religious themes going on in these games? Couldn't we have started there?
"We now know the how and why of Final Fantasy being anti-religious" Don't you think a statement like that is borderline offensive considering the expertise you just got handed?
Seriously, if your resident expert explicitly says he doesn't want anyone thinking Japan hates religion, why do you title your video "Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion?" Don't you think that's a little cheap and disingenuous, especially considering the Gumba's ultimate point?
Final Fantasy advocates deicide? What is a statement like supposed to mean?
If how is Yevon becoming Sin an Adam and Eve metaphor?
Don't you think a Four part battle based on Dante's Divine Comedy deserve a little more unpacking?
Why do you have a Gumba explaining why your question is wrong at the end? Couldn't we have started with him and talked about something interesting? Does the Gumba have a video series, that I can watch instead of Matthew Patrick?
Wouldn't it have been a more interesting video to dissect the Eastern and Western religious themes going on in these games? Couldn't we have started there?
"We now know the how and why of Final Fantasy being anti-religious" Don't you think a statement like that is borderline offensive considering the expertise you just got handed?
Seriously, if your resident expert explicitly says he doesn't want anyone thinking Japan hates religion, why do you title your video "Why Final Fantasy is Anti-Religion?" Don't you think that's a little cheap and disingenuous, especially considering the Gumba's ultimate point?
FFXI is QUITE anti-religion....
Though I believe it to be accidental...
In FFXI, according to The Church, the world was empty... then there was a Giant Crystal emitting super awesome light...
From that light the world arose... and gods arose from that world as well.
The greatest of these gods (which are the elemental avatars summoners summon), is the Twilight God Promathia and the Dawn Goddess Altana.
For some reason that no mortal can really agree on (presented as different sects of The Church of Altana), Promathia died.
Altana was very sad at this, for they love each other, so She shatters the super awesome "Mothercrystal", thus creating the world of the game, Vana'diel.
Then she sheds 5 tears on this new imperfect world... and those tears became the 5 "good" races (ie playable).
With the first expansion, it's revealed that there was a precursor race... who planned on recreating the Perfect Mothercrystal, thereby making the world Perfect... And turning all their species into gods.
This was thought up by the eldest Prince of the Zilart after he touched one of the Mothercrystal shards and saw a vision of how the world was before Altana broke it.
It's also revealed that the reason why the "5 races of Altana" and the Beastmen exist... is because when the Kuluu (Zilart who have lost their special ability, a slave race) and the "Terrestrial Avatars" conspired with the Dawn Maidens (the Zilartian Church.... who due to the Zilartian ability to speak via soul... actually talk with Altana directly... She even is the one who told them how to thwart the world being reborn.)... the resultant magical fallout tainted all the worlds Kuluu and Zilart... eventually mutating them into all sentient races in the game.
(and making any Zilart "souldeaf")
In the second expansion, it's revealed the reason WHY Altana stepped in to stop Her "childrens'" plan.
And why the so-called "gods", the Terrestrial Avatars, were on board with this.
The basic plan was to reforge the Giant Mothercrystal... but smooshing the 5 pieces back together via magic.
This would have made the universe Perfect again... and while the Zilart believed that they would become gods, as in equal to the Celestial Avatars and Altana, they were slightly mistaken...
For they would indeed become divine... just... as cells for the reborn Promathia.
The Terrestrial Avatars would be returned to simple common animals... and the Celestial Avatars would be awoken.
But so too would the corpse of Promathia... And He would take back His fragmented body...
For when He died... Altana broke the Giant Mothercrystal and from His body, created the Zilart. (and thusly all intelligent species indirectly.)
The 5 Terrestrial Avatars were just 5 random animals who escaped the "imperfecting" via some method that led to them being giant crystals in the imperfect world. (A bird, a wolf, a dragon, a bunny, and a demon btw... Phoenix, Fenrir, Bahamut, Carbuncle, and Diabolos.)
Hence why they don't want to go back to being ants... and want to maintain their Divinity... even if it's only Divinity in an imperfect world...
It also hasn't really worked out that well for them... because Phoenix's crystal is shattered... making her a fragmented being living on the souls of sacrificed people... Fenrir's crystal was either destroyed or he never made one... making him "dead"... and Carbuncle broke his crystal so that he could trick mortals into awakening the real gods so that the perfect would would be made without Promathia... (which wouldn't have worked btw.)
And further, in the fourth expansion, it's revealed just what REALLY happens when Altana cries tears...
They turn into kitties.
Either that or She cries kitties...
She's an Ubergod... so... who the fuck knows.
Either way, it's just ONE MORE nail in the coffin that is the Church's teachings.
And I say it's unintentional for two reasons:
1) the game is about racism. The Church's teachings about the 5 races being holy, unlike the Beastmen... even going so far as to say Beastmen lack souls... is fundamentally racist.
The game's creators chose to disprove that racist ideology with a Truth... it's just that said Truth fundamentally alters the Church's dogma as well.
2) The belief that there IS a higher power that loves you and wants you to live (Altana) is presented as fact.
She even interacts in the plot multiple times... and not any of that "maybe it was God maybe it wasn't mysterious ways" shenanigans either... She literally is the one responsible for twarting the Zilart's plan. She is in CSs. She talks to Promathia. She cries Kitties who play a major role in the story (Cait Sith)...
She IS real.
Normally when people tackle the "anti-religion" angle in stories, they do so by showing that what is believed is false.
As was pointed out in X, Yevon was just a dude from Zanarkand who hatched a plot to get revenge on Bevelle by turning all of Zanarkand into a single Faith to keep it "alive" while creating a monster to kill Bevelle.
In other words, the religion is false and bad because its beliefs are lies: God does not exist.
In FFXI, the religion's beliefs in Altana are real and legitimate... but it's dogma about the racial superiority of certain peoples is wrong.
Too bad most people will never get this story... it really is one of the best plots in ANY FF...
Though I believe it to be accidental...
In FFXI, according to The Church, the world was empty... then there was a Giant Crystal emitting super awesome light...
From that light the world arose... and gods arose from that world as well.
The greatest of these gods (which are the elemental avatars summoners summon), is the Twilight God Promathia and the Dawn Goddess Altana.
For some reason that no mortal can really agree on (presented as different sects of The Church of Altana), Promathia died.
Altana was very sad at this, for they love each other, so She shatters the super awesome "Mothercrystal", thus creating the world of the game, Vana'diel.
Then she sheds 5 tears on this new imperfect world... and those tears became the 5 "good" races (ie playable).
With the first expansion, it's revealed that there was a precursor race... who planned on recreating the Perfect Mothercrystal, thereby making the world Perfect... And turning all their species into gods.
This was thought up by the eldest Prince of the Zilart after he touched one of the Mothercrystal shards and saw a vision of how the world was before Altana broke it.
It's also revealed that the reason why the "5 races of Altana" and the Beastmen exist... is because when the Kuluu (Zilart who have lost their special ability, a slave race) and the "Terrestrial Avatars" conspired with the Dawn Maidens (the Zilartian Church.... who due to the Zilartian ability to speak via soul... actually talk with Altana directly... She even is the one who told them how to thwart the world being reborn.)... the resultant magical fallout tainted all the worlds Kuluu and Zilart... eventually mutating them into all sentient races in the game.
(and making any Zilart "souldeaf")
In the second expansion, it's revealed the reason WHY Altana stepped in to stop Her "childrens'" plan.
And why the so-called "gods", the Terrestrial Avatars, were on board with this.
The basic plan was to reforge the Giant Mothercrystal... but smooshing the 5 pieces back together via magic.
This would have made the universe Perfect again... and while the Zilart believed that they would become gods, as in equal to the Celestial Avatars and Altana, they were slightly mistaken...
For they would indeed become divine... just... as cells for the reborn Promathia.
The Terrestrial Avatars would be returned to simple common animals... and the Celestial Avatars would be awoken.
But so too would the corpse of Promathia... And He would take back His fragmented body...
For when He died... Altana broke the Giant Mothercrystal and from His body, created the Zilart. (and thusly all intelligent species indirectly.)
The 5 Terrestrial Avatars were just 5 random animals who escaped the "imperfecting" via some method that led to them being giant crystals in the imperfect world. (A bird, a wolf, a dragon, a bunny, and a demon btw... Phoenix, Fenrir, Bahamut, Carbuncle, and Diabolos.)
Hence why they don't want to go back to being ants... and want to maintain their Divinity... even if it's only Divinity in an imperfect world...
It also hasn't really worked out that well for them... because Phoenix's crystal is shattered... making her a fragmented being living on the souls of sacrificed people... Fenrir's crystal was either destroyed or he never made one... making him "dead"... and Carbuncle broke his crystal so that he could trick mortals into awakening the real gods so that the perfect would would be made without Promathia... (which wouldn't have worked btw.)
And further, in the fourth expansion, it's revealed just what REALLY happens when Altana cries tears...
They turn into kitties.
Either that or She cries kitties...
She's an Ubergod... so... who the fuck knows.
Either way, it's just ONE MORE nail in the coffin that is the Church's teachings.
And I say it's unintentional for two reasons:
1) the game is about racism. The Church's teachings about the 5 races being holy, unlike the Beastmen... even going so far as to say Beastmen lack souls... is fundamentally racist.
The game's creators chose to disprove that racist ideology with a Truth... it's just that said Truth fundamentally alters the Church's dogma as well.
2) The belief that there IS a higher power that loves you and wants you to live (Altana) is presented as fact.
She even interacts in the plot multiple times... and not any of that "maybe it was God maybe it wasn't mysterious ways" shenanigans either... She literally is the one responsible for twarting the Zilart's plan. She is in CSs. She talks to Promathia. She cries Kitties who play a major role in the story (Cait Sith)...
She IS real.
Normally when people tackle the "anti-religion" angle in stories, they do so by showing that what is believed is false.
As was pointed out in X, Yevon was just a dude from Zanarkand who hatched a plot to get revenge on Bevelle by turning all of Zanarkand into a single Faith to keep it "alive" while creating a monster to kill Bevelle.
In other words, the religion is false and bad because its beliefs are lies: God does not exist.
In FFXI, the religion's beliefs in Altana are real and legitimate... but it's dogma about the racial superiority of certain peoples is wrong.
Too bad most people will never get this story... it really is one of the best plots in ANY FF...
seiler88 said:
It is quite a cliche at this point but it also doesn't help that organized religion, Western religion in particular, pretty much hands it's critics ammunition to use against it. Especially religions/sects who are very dogmatic and can't abide the idea of "live and let live" but must eliminate anything they consider heresy or sin or apostasy. Which often means torture and/or murder.
Catholicism itself is a massive target both because it's heavily bureaucratic and hierarchical, so unlike a lot of religions/sects, one man is ultimately responsible for everything that the church does(or doesn't do). It doesn't help that the church has, in so many cases, acted like things that go on beneath it's roof somehow isn't it's problem. A couple years ago, Pope Benedict downright claimed that people criticizing the church were "anti-catholic" and "influenced by the devil", as if to say "We are the church. We can do no wrong".
So it's really not surprising that the Catholic church ends up being the bad guy in games/movies/books so often. The church leadership pretty much invites it.
It's not anti-religion, it's using religion as a whipping boy more accurately, because it's an easy target. More accurately, it's using western religions. And it's far from just Final Fantasy. Breath of Fire 1-4 were all about murdering some sort of God figure, though 3 handled it the best; if BoF3 there are two endings, one where you kill the God of the world, and let the ever growing desert slowly consume the planet, or bend to her will and kill yourself for the good of the world. That was some pretty dark territory for a PS1 game.
But as I was saying, you can look to most JRPG series and see this. Shin Megami Tensei games always deal with religion somehow, even aiming at their own mythologies with titles like Persona 4, where the big bad is Izanami, a Japanese goddess of creation and death. You can't actually believe that practicioners of Shintoism are mocking their own religion? It's more about using them as a vessel to tell a story, or in some cases get a broader point across on topics such as zealotry (FFT) or distorting the faith (BoF2).
But as I was saying, you can look to most JRPG series and see this. Shin Megami Tensei games always deal with religion somehow, even aiming at their own mythologies with titles like Persona 4, where the big bad is Izanami, a Japanese goddess of creation and death. You can't actually believe that practicioners of Shintoism are mocking their own religion? It's more about using them as a vessel to tell a story, or in some cases get a broader point across on topics such as zealotry (FFT) or distorting the faith (BoF2).
It's because the theory of Final Fantasy being anti-Christianity isn't really new to the internet, or unique to Final Fantasy itself. Many posters have pointed out that Shin Megami Tensei already delved into the topic of religion and mythology.s69-5 said: