GamerGate's Image Problem

[Random Gamer]

I'm on board with all of that, so where did all this 'angry woman hating misogyny' shit come from? Because I have no idea whether that was a smoke screen or if it actually has any roots in anything.

You'll find a sizable share of assholes in any given human group, and considering it's the internet, they might be on average more numerous and definitely will be more vocal.
There obviously are sexist pigs in the GG lot, there obviously are people who harassed and a couple or handful of scumbags who went as far as sending death threats. (this being the internet, there was harassment going on against people in Gamergate, obviously, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got a death threat once) Since for some time, this was mostly about a few people, Quinn being front and centre, this attracted its share of misogynists.
Anyone who would deny this would be foolish.

On the other hand, that's also the by-default rebuttal to any and all complaints and demands, whether legitimate, reasonable, or quite out-there. It's becoming tiring, and considering how wide-spread the accusations of misogyny are, this is a risky game, because it's quickly disensitizes thousands or tens of thousands of people, who might not ever give a damn any time anyone talks about sexism (and there are plenty of occasions where it's totally the case and talking about it is not only right but probably necessary).

I should point out however that not all pro-GG people categorically rule out these three options. A change of name has been proposed more than once.

Thing is, I can't see the accusations of sexism, misogyny and the like being dropped. They'll be recycled because it'll be easy to paint the new movement as "Gamergate under another name". Frankly, I can't see how it would not happen, and I can't see how it could be avoided, defuser or countered. I mean, it's not as if people fight fairly here, there are dirty tricks on all sides.

 

[mecegirl]

It just seems to me that if they care about journalistic integrity at all it is only over journalists with a perceived "feminist" slant. The rest could be getting paid off by big time producers right now to give extra press and favorable reviews and they wouldn't care. It's not like we haven't had examples of journalists getting paid off or threatened in some way prior to this incident. So why the grassroots movement now? Especially since its over a game that isn't well known and free.

 

[kurupt87]

(as far as I am aware not a single word of what Eron alleged has ever been refuted)

You know, the onus for evidence doesn't lie on the accused. If it did, then I could say something crazy, like Patrick Stewart threw my kitten into a woodchipper! Do you think any mobs are going to start forming because he doesn't reply to something somebody said about them somewhere?

I've been accused of being a pedophile in real life because I'm not heterosexual. Does it mean I'm a pedophile because, rather than saying "I'm not a pedophile" I flip off the person who says I am and leave?

Standards of evidence, people - have some.

Oh grow up. Quinn has demonstrated that she is not afraid of stepping into the twitter trenches and slinging crap of her own around, which is fine as most of it was in response to the the harassment of the trolls. But, the fact that she does so and has not once said a thing about Eron's story lends it strength. Combined with the impression, that I get from what I've read of him, that he regrets feeling forced to post what he did (even before the whole thing blew up) really makes me believe his story.

Yeah, that whole "of course harassment and threats are bad and shouldn't happen, but come on, she deserved it!" is also a big part of your image problem...

That is quite clearly not what I said. I said she did not deserve it, I said that I believe her to be an unpleasant person. Those two things do not contradict eachother.

Women are always victims in the media. I (a gamer) am always, implicitly, the perpetrator according to the media. When a visible woman reversed the roles and the media did not report on it at all was just frustrating. Something about a camel's back and a straw.

I think a lot of this kerfuffle is due to cultural differences. As a Brit, it has long been "known" that America is a far more racist nation than our own soggy isle. Perhaps the female favoured bias in American gaming media is called for because, like the racism, America is much more sexist than we are over here. I don't know, I've only lived in Britain, but it's a possibility that has crossed my mind.

 

[AkaDad]

Gamergate is so bad...4chan, the place where this all started, has to moderate the conspiracies of their supporters.

 

[kurupt87]

Oh grow up. Quinn has demonstrated that she is not afraid of stepping into the twitter trenches and slinging crap of her own around, which is fine as most of it was in response to the the harassment of the trolls.

Yeah, I'm fine with that. No different than most of he people here on The Escapist.

But, the fact that she does so and has not once said a thing about Eron's story lends it strength.

Patrick Stewart has refused to respond to my allegations that he threw my kitty in a woodchipper, therefore, the allegation has become stronger.

#PicardGate2014

I say again, grow up. At least create a story that actually compares. I'll help, any famous person who is accused of something by a significant other. (Helpful hint, the second party has to be a notable person to the first, not a random horse riding poster.)

Combined with the impression, that I get from what I've read of him, that he regrets feeling forced to post what he did (even before the whole thing blew up) really makes me believe his story.

Know what would make me believe his story?

Facts.

Now I believe that he feels jilted from the whole relationship, and that is a fair response, but if you're to making angry blog posts as a jilted lover out to damage the reputation of your ex, you better provide some evidence. Real evidence, by the way, not him scrolling down his smart phone screen. You know, like, evidence that the relationships mentioned existed outside of a bunch of phone logs that could've been easily faked via jailbreaking the phone.

Then there's all the people saying that Quinn targeted Wizardchan for abuse, or that she scammed TFYC, and their evidence in both of those claims are... just their word, which is even less than what her ex provided. Standards of evidence, people.

Well, various parts of his story have been confirmed. Namely by some of the men with whom she had sexual relations with whilst still in a relationship with her ex.

That is quite clearly not what I said. I said she did not deserve it, I said that I believe her to be an unpleasant person. Those two things do not contradict eachother.

Yeah, no, this is exactly what you said.

Why do you believe that there was no just part to the anti-Quinn movement? Of course the harassment and threats are extremely unpleasant and should never happen, but the woman is fairly obviously rather horrible.

Since the entire "movement" is about slut-shaming and harassing somebody, and you think there's something just to it, you're approving of that behavior.

I would rather you not tell me what I am doing and why, it's really quite presumptuous.

I am not slut-shaming, such a thing would be saying that a single woman who enjoys going out and having sex is a slut. I do not believe that, at least not in the sense that such a thing is a negative in any way. I love those women, they make the weekends far more enjoyable.

What slut-shaming is not, is saying that a woman in a long term exclusive relationship who (either as a manipulative tool or genuine belief) tells her partner that cheating on a partner is a form of rape (relationship=contract, cheat=break contract, broken contract=removal of consent) and then goes on to sleep with not just one person with whom a relationship may bloom but five different people. What it is not is saying that this woman is a bad person.

 

[Zontar]

Gamergate is so bad...4chan, the place where this all started, has to moderate the conspiracies of their supporters.

2 problems with that conspiracy theory you just made.

1st is that it started on Twitter by someone who shows no signs of being a 4chan user. It's possible, but hos attitude is not that which is typically associated with the site.

2nd is that the moderators on the site started to clamp down long before any accusations of conspiracies started, and it was that act which actually helped birth the idea that there was a conspiracy at all (which most of us know there isn't, though only due to the fact that those leading the anti-GamerGate side are cognitively incapable of doing so, and even if they where are unable to do so in a way which doesn't have most of the telling everyone and their dog about it).

 

[kurupt87]

The thing is, neither of us said you, personally, were slut-shaming, we're simply pointing out that you're explicitly condoning others who engage in such behavior because you believe she is a bad person and support a movement started solely to harass and shame her (even if people claim it has moved on from that initial reason, which, as this and other threads here have proven is a blatant lie anyways). In other words, when you claim you don't condone something, immediately followed by a "but" that is then followed by the exact same excuses used to justify the behavior you just stated you didn't condone, your claim that you don't condone that behavior becomes null and void, because you agree with the justification for said behavior. That whole "but" in there, is basically you admitting that there are exceptions to the rule.

Like I said before, disagreeing with the actions of the harassing trolls but agreeing with the judgement that she is a bad person is in no way a mutually exclusive situation.

I believe murderers are bad, I do not believe in mob justice. Does that somehow not compute? Does that somehow mean I don't think the murderer should be punished with prison time? No, of course not. So stop saying exactly that.

And yes, engaging in shaming someone for cheating on their SO who you have no business shaming in the first place, because it does not in any way involve you is, in fact, slut-shaming, so even your claims that you are not slut-shaming become null and void when you immediately follow it with an explicit act of slut-shaming. So, though I didn't accuse you of doing so previously, I am accusing you of doing so presently, because you just did it.

Fascinating, so Tiger Woods and his cheating on his wife and the subsequent media frenzy where he was eviscerated was slut-shaming was it? Was it slut-shaming when Bill Clinton got rekt for his dalliance with his secretary? If so, please inform the world. If not, please stop being sexist?

 

[AkaDad]

Gamergate is so bad...4chan, the place where this all started, has to moderate the conspiracies of their supporters.

2 problems with that conspiracy theory you just made.

1st is that it started on Twitter by someone who shows no signs of being a 4chan user. It's possible, but hos attitude is not that which is typically associated with the site.

2nd is that the moderators on the site started to clamp down long before any accusations of conspiracies started, and it was that act which actually helped birth the idea that there was a conspiracy at all (which most of us know there isn't, though only due to the fact that those leading the anti-GamerGate side are cognitively incapable of doing so, and even if they where are unable to do so in a way which doesn't have most of the telling everyone and their dog about it).

I believe it was Johnny Carson that had that comedy bit.

Carson: X is so bad...
Audience: How bad is it!
Carson: X is so bad that...

Now, on a serious note.

The main reasons why I don't support 4chan's Gamergate is the dishonesty from its supporters saying that it didn't start with 4chan and their hateful, targeted harassment of Zoe Quinn. The guy who started the huge gamergate thread that's up now, is one of the few people who actually admits it.

Then there's all the false claims of corruption, the anti-feminist ranting, and the temper tantrum nature from many of its supporters.

 

[ElMinotoro]

How can you fix this image problem? You can't. You absolutely can't. It started because Eron Gonji was such a super ethical guy. 4 chan ran with it. Attached to #gamergate from the very genesis, the kind of bile is part of it from the core.

To say that this issue was popularised because of censorship disingenuous at best and a bald-faced lie at worst. It was censored because of the kinds of attacks on Zoe that forum moderators have come to expect because games are a youth market and children have little self control or self-moderation. You know in your hearts that this came out of an attack on Zoe. The censorship was partially (not entirely, sure) driven by trying to stamp down on the kind of bile that you can see on every single page of the mega-thread.

Good thing it's about journalistic integrity in an industry that's not actually journalism but critique and editorial. Good thing Gamergate banded everyone together for Doritogate. I remember when we all banded together against Greg Kasavin and his Kane and Lynch review. I remember when we all stopped listening to reviewers who have been given all kinds of free stuff by publishers, etc. I could go on, but I'm pretty sure this indicates that it was only going to happen when cooties was involved.

Nobody got this angry when there was actual physical evidence (rather than hearsay) about reviewers being straight up bribed by big publishers.

 

[kurupt87]

Yes, in both cases it was. And in both cases, I dismissed the media frenzy and ignored it, and asked people why they cared or why it mattered whenever someone brought it up to me. Though it should be duly noted that in the case of Bill Clinton, much of the nation agreed that it was a non-issue and Republicans sullied their reputation for trying to make it an impeachable offense. They literally undermined themselves by attempting to slut shame him, while Tiger Woods, for all the gossip about his sex life, lost some of his sponsors and got out of golf for a while, only to later come back without much fuss. They also were internationally famous celebrities at the time their scandals broke, which fully explains why their personal lives were such a widespread interest, because their personal lives had that kind of interest beforehand.

It's not a matter of caring or it mattering in the grand scheme of things. What it does is give an indication of the character of the person. Both of the examples I gave (as much as I know of them, which is admittedly not a great deal) are less a condemnation of character than the alleged actions of Quinn.

You are also the only person I've spoken to who would describe decrying the actions of a cheater as slut-shaming. I am fairly certain the universal, bar yourself, definition of slut-shaming is to insult women for enjoying sex.

You're getting hung up on the sex. It is the willing and repeated betrayal of the person to whom you (should) share a deep bond of trust that is what people hate about cheaters.

 

[Zontar]

The main reasons why I don't support 4chan's Gamergate is the dishonesty from its supporters saying that it didn't start with 4chan and their hateful, targeted harassment of Zoe Quinn. The guy who started the huge gamergate thread that's up now, is one of the few people who actually admits it.

Then there's all the false claims of corruption, the anti-feminist ranting, and the temper tantrum nature from many of its supporters.

This all started when people started to bring it up in forums, with many asking the logical question of "why is this not being reported on?". Something to remember is that games media websites have in the past posted articles claiming to be factual using nothing but rumours and reporting it as fact (including many sites which have lost their credibility from all this having posted as fact false rape allegations). The fact that a woman who cheated with 5 people, several of which where members of the industry, and that "news by the standards of these sites in every way imaginable" was not being reported on was head scratching. It was a massive act of inconsistency, but most didn't make much of it because it was being brought up in the forums.

Then it wasn't, because all the forums where closing every thread mentioning it, and it even got to Reddit and 4chan itself. For reference: 4chan's bar for what is worth censoring is so high that the mods where basically saying that mentioning the issue in on par with child porn. THAT was a massive red flag for this whole thing, and the fact that sites all over tried to continue it only made it snowball until... well until we got to where we are now.

Basically at the end of the day using the few who are using this as an excuse to hate on women to oppose GamerGate is just looking at the worst of the worst to come to your conclusion, while the leading voices of the anti-GamerGate side tend to be ones who are part of the systemic problem which we are fighting against. Just look at MovieBob, his tweets on the matter not only would have gotten him fired in any other industry, even within this industry better men have been fired and blacklisted for much, much less.

 

[aliengmr]

Just needs to stop being gamergate.

I've tried to point out that even if you forget the early stuff, the movement just kept burning itself over and over again.

Gamergate has a burning hatered for Leigh Alexander. I sympathise right up until good ol' Milo is found to have said worse about gamers and its... *crickets*

Gamergate tried to stand for journalistic integrity and they start tossing around baseless accusations minus the actual facts.

And also you've made this an ideological fight, one whose views have begun recognizing even moderate views as the enemy. I'm not with "censorship" of any kind and you basically want to get rid of debate. Thank you gamergate, I can think for myself. I don't need you policing what I can and cannot read about.

I just don't know the endgame for gamergate. I see too much extreme rhetoric on social issues. I see some real crackpots getting involved and literally the purest forms of willful ignorance I have ever seen.

 

[aliengmr]

Gamergate tried to stand for journalistic integrity and they start tossing around baseless accusations minus the actual facts.

Like what? I see that a lot against gamergate, but not so much from gamergate.

Milo sending out a tweet that the police had no record of her filing a complaint. It got retweeted like 600 times before he found out it was false.

I think the initial lead came from that racist Aurini.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Gamergate is a big angry mob of anonymous internet people. Say 'we' are not misogynists all you want, but you cant speak for everyone involved. Some of the people involved in gamergate are misogynists. Because naturally being in opposition to feminist elements will bring those sorts of people out of the woodwork. Gamergate is forever tainted by the fact it was sparked by Zoe Quinns indiscretions. I think a namechange is your only real option if you want to seperate yourselves from the misogynists and actually talk about journalism, leave them the gamergate tag and start over with something more pure.

 

[Zontar]

Gamergate is a big angry mob of anonymous internet people. Say 'we' are not misogynists all you want, but you cant speak for everyone involved. But some of the people involved in gamergate are. Because naturally being in opposition to feminist elements will bring those sorts of people out of the woodwork. Gamergate is forever tainted by the fact it was sparked by Zoe Quinns indiscretions. I think a namechange is your only real option if you want to seperate yourselves from the misogynists and actually talk about journalism, leave them the gamergate tag and start over with something more pure.

That would brake appart the whole movement by giving the control of the narrative to the anti-GamerGate side. Currently GamerGate holds control of the narrative. Giving that up to a group which has just as large, if not a larger, problem with sexist and racist extremists in their ranks, is only going to put anti-GamgerGate in the position of control over the narrative, with ammunition to use against GamerGate to misinform those who have not been following this very closely.

No, the disadvantages of having our extremists within our ranks does not warrant us temporarily trying to get rid of them in such a way. The costs far exceed any possible gains, and that's ignoring the control of the narrative being lost.

 

[aliengmr]

Gamergate tried to stand for journalistic integrity and they start tossing around baseless accusations minus the actual facts.

Like what? I see that a lot against gamergate, but not so much from gamergate.

Milo sending out a tweet that the police had no record of her filing a complaint. It got retweeted like 600 times before he found out it was false.

I think the initial lead came from that racist Aurini.

Or how about that Zoe Quinn slept with 5 guys for undeserved publicity and prestige? Or that she purposely damaged TFYC's reputation for her own financial gain? Or that MovieBob and Faraci were insulting any and all gamers, calling them all terrorists and subhuman vermin, as opposed to just the people who were participating in a public harassment campaign and issuing threats against Zoe Quinn and Anita [Still can't be bothered to remember how to spell her last name]? Or that gaming journalists have been in cahoots with each other for years secretly plotting to force a pro-feminist agenda and reshape the entire industry and what games would be allowed to be published based on pro-feminist criteria?

Exactly, playing fast and loose with facts. Way to articulate the point even better.

Milo called all gamers "rapists" and there is little doubt where his vitriol was aimed. But fine, Moviebob called me a terrorist, boo hoo.

No proof that Zoe got any special treatment, well until GamerGate just couldn't stop bringing her up even when they didn't want to. Bit of irony there.

No proof of a pro-feminist agenda, just a conspiracy theory. But since GamerGate keeps redefining what feminism is and includes that could mean anything at this point. What I find hilarious is that GamerGate are going after the one respectable thing about EA and ignoring the rest.

I also don't see the problem of letting developer make the games they want to make, unless they think these nefarious freelance writers and publications have a stranglehold on a multi-billion industry that could squash them like bugs and replace them on a whim.

 

[Vault101]

one thing I'll say is this "Vivian" character reeks of "SHE'S OCOOL BECAUSE SHE'S A GIRL AND SHE DOESN'T CARE"

I mean come on...if youre gonna do that do it with a REAL person

 

[aliengmr]

Gamergate tried to stand for journalistic integrity and they start tossing around baseless accusations minus the actual facts.

Like what? I see that a lot against gamergate, but not so much from gamergate.

Milo sending out a tweet that the police had no record of her filing a complaint. It got retweeted like 600 times before he found out it was false.

I think the initial lead came from that racist Aurini.

I'm not sure about what is going on with that. I saw the video where the police officer actually said that there was no report filed, which seems to give some credibility to the story.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like Milo.

http://kotaku.com/bomb-threat-targeted-anita-sarkeesian-gaming-awards-la-1636032301

That's what Kotaku came out with. It explains it in its entirety. Milo dropped it as soon as it didn't fit his narrative.

 

[aliengmr]

Gamergate tried to stand for journalistic integrity and they start tossing around baseless accusations minus the actual facts.

Like what? I see that a lot against gamergate, but not so much from gamergate.

Milo sending out a tweet that the police had no record of her filing a complaint. It got retweeted like 600 times before he found out it was false.

I think the initial lead came from that racist Aurini.

Or how about that Zoe Quinn slept with 5 guys for undeserved publicity and prestige? Or that she purposely damaged TFYC's reputation for her own financial gain? Or that MovieBob and Faraci were insulting any and all gamers, calling them all terrorists and subhuman vermin, as opposed to just the people who were participating in a public harassment campaign and issuing threats against Zoe Quinn and Anita [Still can't be bothered to remember how to spell her last name]? Or that gaming journalists have been in cahoots with each other for years secretly plotting to force a pro-feminist agenda and reshape the entire industry and what games would be allowed to be published based on pro-feminist criteria?

That's not playing fast and loose with the facts. That's speculation based on facts. Like, if I see that a politician has taken money from a special interest, and supports that special interest with his politics, I can speculate that the two are related.

And I haven't seen anyone saying that Faraci was referring to all gamers, just to the gamergate supporters.

You absolutely can, until you have zero evidence to back it up and a statement from Totilo explaining what did and did not happen. Its throwing it out there in the way its worded now that's playing fast and loose.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Oh grow up.

Telling people to grow up, while at the same time openly and flagrantly discarding the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty', and having nothing at all to offer from the other side other than that you have chosen to "believe" Eron Whatshisface, because he said that he felt super duper bad about all this?

To other GamerGaters in or watching this thread. You know when people like me talk about people in your movement having no self-awareness? We're talking about stuff like this.

Whether any or all of the claims made about her were true or not, Zoe Quinn has never owed strangers from the internet a running commentary on her sex life. Unless anyone out there can prove (and I really mean 'this would stand up in court' kind of prove, as you were accusing people of potentially career-ending indiscretions here) that there was any ulterior motive behind her personal relationships and that she received any kind of benefit as a direct result of them, then you don't get to make demands that anyone disclose anything to you. Beyond that, you can gossip all you like over who she may or may not have fucked, and what kind of person you think that makes her. I'd want to engage in that debate just as little as I want to engage in this one, truth be told, but I wouldn't exactly begrudge you it. However, without hard evidence of wrong-doing that has been utterly failed to be provided at every turn, her personal life is and will remain None Of Your Damn Business.