Gamers make bad feminists

[Squidbulb]

The people I hate are the kind of "feminists" who refuse to believe that women have anything better than men, and will not accept and kind of female fictional character that isn't absolutely perfect. There's nothing wrong with having one dumb housewife, because it's not like those kinds of people don't exist in real life. The problem would be if all of them were like that, but they aren't.
In the same way, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of sex appeal here and there, as long as that's not the only type of character that exists. In tons of cartoons and tv shows you'll see the "dumb dad" stereotype, or an attractive, muscular, action movie star, and there's nothing wrong with those. Yet for some reason the female equivalents of these are treated with disgust, because as we all know in real life all women are perfect.

 

[Schadrach]

To be honest, I kind of ignore what most feminists say ever since I discovered that this person is a feminist: thefemitheist.blogspot.com Go look under April and you will find her amazing reasons as to why all men should be castrated. I am not joking. So yes I would agree that I as a gamer make a bad feminist because I think that lady is pants on head retarded irrelevant of my views on the trailer.

One feminist is bad = all feminists are bad?

I dont understand this, with everything else everyone seems to acknowledge that the vocal minority is stupid but a minority but with feminists people will hold up one person and go `THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE ALL LIKE!!!!!`

But whatever, think what you like I suppose.

It's worth noting that that is also the only feminist blog I was able to find that discussed the whole Brian Banks thing, you know, at all. The others generally try to ignore it because it disagrees with their preconceived positions. Another one of those "Stopped clock, twice a day" moments.

It's actually a surprise that someone so generally horrible was so surprisingly less horrible regarding Banks, while the likes of Shakesville, Pandagon, Feministe, Feministing, and Jezebel all seem to be trying their hardest to pretend it didn't happen.

Compare the general internet feminist response to a few events that might be recognizable to this audience:

Webcomic that uses a character saying they were being repeatedly raped as an example of the horror they had to live through in an attempt to make a joke about the ridiculousness of MMO heroes morality? Light the torches and grab the pitchforks, let loose the battle cry of "rape culture" and act like they're no better than rapists when they respond to being attacked with mockery. (penny Arcade Dickwolves controversy)

Tentacle hentai themed card game, laden with innuendo but never outright saying why the tentacle monsters were after the school girls? Light the torches and grab the pitchforks, let loose the battle cry of "rape culture" and then complain because merely having it's Kickstarter cancelled didn't kill it (and posit whether or not they could get the company's credit card processing frozen to kill it better). Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war, and all that. (Tentacle Bento controversy)

Woman confesses outright and on camera to lying about a rape, putting someone in jail for half a decade, on probation for another half decade, registered as a sex offender, and using the accusation to fraudulently sue the school district for a ton of money while her victims family had to sell their home in his defense? Total fucking silence, except for one person who feels it important to point out this dishonesty is at least bad in between rants about how its a good idea to have men forcibly castrated for the good of all people. (Brian Banks case)

Trailer where generally asexual killing machine murders nun-assassins clad in impractical fetish gear, with the same kind of glee and focus on detail generally reserved for the murder of male characters? This goes back to being important again, though fewer pitchforks and torches than I was expecting. (Hitman trailer this thread is about)

 

[Phasmal]

Snip

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making here. That feminists only think about stuff if they're blogging about it?

As I've said before, its feminism is a varied and personal thing. I dont care if there are feminists who I disagree with, because I am not them, I am free to disagree with them.

Personally I give zero fucks about the Hitman trailer. Yeah, its dumb and stupid sexualisation, but honestly I expect that shit in the game industry. I wont buy it anyway, hopefully one day this media can mature.

 

[The Ubermensch]

The fact is there should be equality of opportunity, but when folks pretend thtere should be equality of result or that all people are inherently equal in interest and ability, that is where things get perverse. It has happened a lot with the feminist movement where inconvenient facts are swept under the rug in order to claim inequality only when convenient. 9 out of 10 prisoners are men for instance, not everything is rosy about being men, drop out rates and grades in higher education and the rest are all worse for guys, you never hear about this though because apparently only women have a hard time in the world. But if some stat were as distorted as the 9 out of 10 prisoner are men but against women there would be outrage and hysteria, but since its just affecting men, its just accepted as a given.

Just how it is now apparently.

I have some experience with these statistics first hand. Once upon a time I was a nurse in training, WAS for about two years before I managed to piss off half the faculty. Now I kill people, isn't life grand?

Anyway, so once upon a sociology orientation lecture the professor was talking about wages and how nurses don't get payed enough and how now that there were more men in the field they may now be due a pay rise.

Later on in the semester, I managed to piss her off every single prac mind you, however EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME I WAS RIGHT (A tear comes to my eye, I find this rather amusing to remember), we were talking about stereotypes, and she shot around the class to ask for some stereotypes. Another thing that was going on in this class was the paramedic and I were having a rivalry thing going on, and I made the mistake of mentioning I'm from New Zealand, Sheep Sex joke ahoy! So he goes with that, we all have a good laugh. So it comes my turn... how this was a university discussion... anyway, I go with "Catholic priests touch little boys". Now the class goes quite and we move on. Later during the lesson the lecturer approaches me and tells me I was out of line. I then proceed to explain to her that yes it was offensive, but show me a stereotype that wasn't in some way offensive, and I'll show you a black man (I could get in trouble for that one). Ya know, the New Zealand one, I could find that offensive couldn't I? And rather than admit her fault, she goes and confronts the paramedic while I face palm.

Later myself and the paramedic laughed for a long time.

I don't know what relevance that has to be honest, the discussion on stats just made me think of that.

ON TOPIC!

Feminists make bad feminists. I mean the definition of feminism has changed so many times. First it was about suffrage, then it was about sex and no wedlock bastardry, now its about less sex, money and judgment of those who aren't feminists. I put forward that women have a lot of power now... I mean if you've had any kind of sexual intercourse with a woman, and she gets pregnant, and she files for child support, and you don't get a paternity test with in 72 hours of her lodging that claim... well mister, you're fucked (I have no conformational on this... this was just a mate of mine ranting about how fucked he got... YES I'M PULLING A FOX NEWS). To be honest... I can't really get behind the idea of child support in its most sane context; If a man gets a woman pregnant and the woman takes it to term the man has to pay support, the woman can pull out within the first two trimesters via an abortion but the man gets no say what so ever. I mean yes, physical pain and what not but it still seems unfair.

Then again, I've had five corporals and a sergeant tell me that "all women are just snakes with tits, do what you need with them and then get out of dodge", and I do like the crazies. My view might be skewed some what.

My opinion of gender rights... the law should be the same for every one. If there is an exception for one gender then it needs to be worded in away that it applies to both genders or none at all. For example, Rape should be described as forced sexual contact rather than penetration. There are differences between men and women, but shouldn't be up to a government to define them. Feminism should exist, don't get me wrong, but there needs to be a strong counter movement at this point, of which there is not.

And with that in mind; to the original question, gamers making bad feminists, I say Yes... but non feminist gamers in my experience make excellent and empowered women.

That went on longer than I had planned. Sorry if the grammar got over looked but... CBFed man

 

[Phasmal]

Then again, I've had five corporals and a sergeant tell me that "all women are just snakes with tits, do what you need with them and then get out of dodge", and I do like the crazies. My view might be skewed some what.

I dont understand how that works. I've heard so many people say crap like this, but I'm always getting accused of man-hating (even though I've not said anything of the sort), but this crap is acceptable to say.
Then again, if anyone begins a sentance with `All women are` I tend to tune out. Unless they are going to say `individuals`, its hardly going to be enlightned.

And with that in mind; to the original question, gamers making bad feminists, I say Yes... but non feminist gamers in my experience make excellent and empowered women.

Ehhh...whut?
I don't quite understand. Me being a feminist has very little to do with me being a gamer.

 

[Phasmal]

Then again, if anyone begins a sentance with `All women are` I tend to tune out. Unless they are going to say `individuals`, its hardly going to be enlightned.

Just saying, if you don't like "all women" then don't say "all men", doing it yourself doesn't help the issue.

Everybody generalises sometimes, I try to avoid doing it.
I've certainly neever said all dudes were snakes.

 

[Conn1496]

Sorry. We interrupt your forums to bring you more thread whoring!
Seriously, you guys need to work on appropriate thread titles...

Anyway, Feminism isn't a good or bad thing. It's a thing. A thing that women (and men if you're that sort of wierd.) are entitled to and a thing we should respect. Where this fits with gaming I have no idea, and whoever said gamers make bad feminists are probably the same morons who said something along the lines of sponges make bad sandwiches, because frankly, they're unrelated. Gaming is a unisex activity, it's just that men take more of a liking to it than women. It's like saying shopping is a feminine activity, because, I don't know about you single guys, but I'm pretty sure you HAVE to go shopping. Does that make you feminine? No. If people stopped adressing gender roles as a problem, they'd eventually fade away as every other problem does, and feminists wouldn't need to be feminists.

 

[Treefingers]

snip

I couldn't agree with you more. The sexism that goes on in the gaming community makes me embarrassed to identify with it.

 

[Phasmal]

snip

I couldn't agree with you more. The sexism that goes on in the gaming community makes me embarrassed to identify with it.

Hopefully it will get better one day, but looking at this thread I'd guess not any time soon.
Oh, well.

Snip.

Reported. How is saying that kind of crap even acceptable on here?

 

[iRevanchist]

The woman are not real, It is a work of fiction, Games are an art form.

There wouldn't be outcry if a woman was punched/raped/dressed as a strippernunassissin in a book, movie or TV program (assuming it was aired at the right time).

*women

and if a woman was unched/raped/dressed as a strippernunassissin in a book, movie or TV program you bet your ass there would be a public outcry.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Then again, I've had five corporals and a sergeant tell me that "all women are just snakes with tits, do what you need with them and then get out of dodge", and I do like the crazies. My view might be skewed some what.

I dont understand how that works.

Few in the kitchen do understand

Bad jokes aside, I understand your confusion, from a male perspective, I'd compare it to when a girl says "all guys are jerks!" when in reality, they don't actually feel that and aren't too wise with their words at the moment. (Then again, alot of military is more based on testosterone and old "Gung Ho!" style mannerism's, where the more macho and tool you can be, the cooler you are, so saying stupid shit like "Heh women are only good for tits and sandwiches!" it tends to ignite ignorant flames that shouldn't be used in the first place.

Ehhh...whut?
I don't quite understand. Me being a feminist has very little to do with me being a gamer.

also, agreed on....this I have no idea somehow gaming as a hobby relates to being a good/bad feminist, but people will see things where they want to I guess..

Captcha: Bad Egg

Why yes I am a bad egg! Thank you very much captcha for nailing me on the head with that one

 

[BlackStar42]

What you've taken are tweets. They're soundbites wihtout sufficient context or elaboration to draw commentary without that being perceived as trollish or 'reactive'.

I don't think there is ever an appropriate context for calling somebody a ****.

There is when that someone is Piers Morgan. Sometimes, no other word will do.

 

[rokkolpo]

Since we are throwing stupid sweeping Generalizations based on no facts whatsoever.

Cats are shitty pets.
Cupcakes are the best source of iron.
Feminists make great objective journalists

I agree completely with boaq here.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic... I mean yeah video games aren't meant to teach lessons. I'm just pointing out that it isn't very empowering or anything to be able to hit x to not be raped.

You are a sensible person Mortai, so I really shouldn't have to tell you that the actual gameplay of "not being raped" (be it button mashing, QTE or some more involved gameplay process) isn't as important as the framework in which it occurs. The actual act of rape itself, just like murder or othe violence, is not inherently bad to portray within any form of media. What generally makes it bad is that it is handled improperly, either through bad narrative, poor context or simply a hamfisted approach to the portrayal.

Remember when the film crit hulk [http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist] talked about this? He used the comparsion between how the movie strawdog uses excellent narrative, superb acting and great control of the visuals and audio of the scene to make it unforgettable and frightening. Then he juxtapositioned that to how Arkham City seems to throw out by-lines from just about every goon out there about how much they'd like to force Poison Ivy/Catwoman/Harley Quinn/Dr. Freezes frozen wife into coietus.

What I am trying to get at here is that even if there ends up being a "Press X not to be raped" QTE in the Tomb Raider, that doesn't necessarily have to be bad if it is approached with due diligence in the writing. An attempted rape is a powerful storytelling and emotional tool (as well as a very touchy subject) for showing a character as being vulnerable and exposed; and its' subversion can speak volumes for the actual strength of the character. If done well, it becomes compelling and gut wrenching all at the same time, much like the first fighting scene in Heavy Rain constantly had my heart racing. If done poorly, it will only leave you with a sour taste in your mouth at the gross mishandling of such powerful and sensitive themes.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

That is...That's pretty disturbing, really.

 

[WindKnight]

Pretty much this. people talking negatively about 'feminist agendas' and treat feminists like their trying to crush all men underneath their heel want you to feel sorry for the poor, maligned white heterosexual male who is being so badly mistreated now! I mean, he dominated society for so long, why should he be forced to share it with people not like him?

/mindboggled

so...discrimination against women is wrong, but discrimination against men is okay. that is not equality, that is "haves" vs "have nots". all it does is start a perpetual cycle where the "have nots" overthrow the "haves", only for the new "have nots" start their own overthrow attempt later on.

it is a cycle of friction without end which will constantly escalate as time goes on.

if you believed in equality in the slightest, how X group treated Y group is IRRELEVANT to how they should be treated now IF you believe in equality.

unfortunately, many people SAY they believe in equality when all they are interested is how it benefits them.

I am male, but i have no particular loyalty to my gender, race, or religion. I can admit that i feel that men, overall, tend to be a bit jerkish or pigish (with varying degrees to each of those aspects) compared to women.

Hell, im not even loyal to a political party anymore, not after the crap that went down in congress last summer.

but the best part? the VERY BEST PART?

is that there are quite a few self described "feminists" on here that decry the feminazi definition, saying that they are a minority loose cannons, but procede to blame all of their woes on right ring lunatics. what is funny about that is that they are ACTING IN THE SAME FASHION AS THE RIGHT WINGERS THAT THEY DESPISE.

There is NO difference between a right wing nut blaming the woes of the world onto liberals and a "feminist" blaming the woes of the world onto right wing nuts.

thank god that out of the group of "feminists" on here that there are a few are a credit to the human race by being reasonable and upholding the founding principle of the movement.

Eamar, keep on rockin

Except the only people equating feminists as a whole to the rather, shall we say, insane bunch who embrace full misandry, are generally those trying to present themselves as 'false underdogs' - the kind who have had the power and the rights and the exclusivity to both for so long, and are now acting like their being oppressed when they're told to share with women, other races and people who are not heterosexual.

There are people who came in with the 'old ways' and don't want to get with the 'new ways'. And they are w=quite hapy to present themselves as being maligned and abused by the people they are themselves abusing to keep it to the old ways.

 

[The Ubermensch]

Then again, I've had five corporals and a sergeant tell me that "all women are just snakes with tits, do what you need with them and then get out of dodge", and I do like the crazies. My view might be skewed some what.

I dont understand how that works. I've heard so many people say crap like this, but I'm always getting accused of man-hating (even though I've not said anything of the sort), but this crap is acceptable to say.
Then again, if anyone begins a sentance with `All women are` I tend to tune out. Unless they are going to say `individuals`, its hardly going to be enlightned.

I was saying that "my personal experience with the fairer sex might make my opinion anything but fair, so take this with a large helping of salt". I would agree with the dismissal of hyperbolic statements.

Take it for what it is, the lamination of a man who's been burned one to many times to love again

(Coming This Fall)

And with that in mind; to the original question, gamers making bad feminists, I say Yes... but non feminist gamers in my experience make excellent and empowered women.

Ehhh...whut?
I don't quite understand. Me being a feminist has very little to do with me being a gamer.

Does it? As I said, I don't agree with the movement. I am defiantly not saying women belong in the kitchen (Well I might say it ironically), I do believe in gender equality which, yeah ok, still doesn't exist. But the contemporary feminist movement isn't about equality in my experience. Yes, I know we should remove the stigma from the word but someone at least partially rational needs to oppose the movement in order for there to be balance.

Feminism has changed too many times for there to be an accurate definition, so I submit to the Internet that it is impossible to have a "good" feminist by definition.

As far as the "Excellent and Empowered" bit; A gamer girl in general will have a higher IQ, map reading skills and has a 60% chance to ride motorbikes. I do love a girl with good map reading skills.

 

[The Ubermensch]

Snip

Feminism has changed too many times for there to be an accurate definition, so I submit to the Internet that it is impossible to have a "good" feminist by definition.

 

[WindKnight]

Snip

Feminism has changed too many times for there to be an accurate definition, so I submit to the Internet that it is impossible to have a "good" feminist by definition.

(Finds cover behind a big pile of sandbags before someone takes the bait)

 

[likalaruku]

Why do we make bad feminists? Because we aren't very feminine? Because after decades of boobs-in-the-face we've just become numb to it? I'd be satisfied if male characters had to run around dressed like they straight out of He-Man or Fire & Ice, or Zardoz (come on, who doesn't want to see Sean Connery running around in an unflattering wedding dress?)