Games as art? Settled!
- Thread starter bkd69
- Start date
That particular list was pretty weak. Fallout? Of all the games that could be used for this argument, that's the one you choose. That's comparable to saying "films are art, just look at Lord of the Rings".
If this guy was flexing his "gamer-snob" muscles, I am scoffing at how metaphorically weak he is.
There are huge problems with this debate and coming at people with a list like this:
1. If you are not a member of an artistic community, you simply lack the tools to describe games in an artistic context.
2. There is no clearly defined meaning for this term "art".
3. Games are a compilation medium They use video, sound, writing, etc. Is the game art just because it uses artful backdrops?
4. If a person has already formed their opinion about gaming, there is nothing to argue.
Frankly I think we should stop asking that question and start asking what we can do to make games more sophisticated and of better quality.
If this guy was flexing his "gamer-snob" muscles, I am scoffing at how metaphorically weak he is.
There are huge problems with this debate and coming at people with a list like this:
1. If you are not a member of an artistic community, you simply lack the tools to describe games in an artistic context.
2. There is no clearly defined meaning for this term "art".
3. Games are a compilation medium They use video, sound, writing, etc. Is the game art just because it uses artful backdrops?
4. If a person has already formed their opinion about gaming, there is nothing to argue.
Frankly I think we should stop asking that question and start asking what we can do to make games more sophisticated and of better quality.
In reply to these points:mark_n_b said:
1. Who says he isn't?
2. There is, but there also doesn't need to be, since art isn't meant to be viewed in any single definitive or objective way.
3. It can be, yes. It can also be art because of the video, sound, writing, or experience it conveys. Just like any other piece of art.
4. You could also say, "If a person has already formed their opinion about _________, there is nothing to argue. So we should just not discuss anything, ever." In terms of changing peoples' minds, I don't think there's a lot of people out there that adamantly believe video games are NOT art and cannot be convinced otherwise. It's not that serious of a topic. I'm sure loads of people don't see the connection and don't think games are art, but I'm sure a lot of those people have open minds as well.
I honestly don't think Ico was as much of an "art game" as people think. It did some good things, its certainly a good game, but its mostly a puzzle platformer. Its younger brother deserves to be on that list but, honestly, I think its stupid to think that some games are art and others are not. Almost every game you've ever seen is a finely crafted work. Its a case of what is good, what is unique and such that makes people start to think of them as 'art'. Then there's art games. Games like the stuff put together by thatgamecompany. Stuff like Flower and Endless Forest. Those are like the poems to the novel that is a full game. They aren't comparable as art forms. I agree with what L.B. Jeffries said on post 35. These guys have missed the point.
I really like this definition for art, mostly because it is what I believe to be art. Although I feel very few games actually do it.roblikestoskate said:
I am surprised no one has mentioned games made by The Escapists' own Jason Rohrer. He does a wonderful job of making simplistic games that express a message unrelated to the performed gameplay or story within the game.
Remember, artistic intent is a helpful way of evaluating artistic merit (the objectivist school of criticism). Listen to what the developer says about his own work if you want to judge it's artistic value. Not every game has been made with artistic intent just as not every film has been made with artistic intent. Also, recognize the difference between art and craft. Craftsmanship is the refinement of an aesthetic skill and is appreciated and evaluated at a literal level. Art has implications and goals beyond the literal. Many games have excellent craftsmanship, but not all games strive to meet artistic goals.Fightgarr said:
And Cadren, I'll have to investigate Mr Rohrer's works more closely. I've only read discriptions of his game Passage, although I am interested in Rod Humble's The Marriage, which was mentioned in several Escapist articles.
http://www.rodvik.com/rodgames/marriage.html
You can check out his website here:roblikestoskate said:
http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/jason-rohrer/
Some of the games I don't 'get', but I really like Idealism, Perfectionism and Immortality. After playing I had big "Oh... that's what he's going for" moments. Ian Bogost,a professor at Georgia Tech and a regular columnists of gamasutra, wrote lots of praise about him as well.
Sadly, for some reason, my computer won't run some of his games properly and I can't figure out why.
I agree about Okami as well as the portal thing. The story, design, and game mechanics rocked so hardcore my face still hurts, but I don't think that qualifies as "art" necessarily.[Gavo said:
this article seems to have confused games AS art and games WITH art. an otherwise dull compeltely uncreative movie with a great artistic beautiful soundtrack is not art. its art, with some pictures and extra voices. the music is art, the movie is crap.
a movie that looks damn pretty, but is just one frame set to music, is not art(well technically it could be, but for using the words "technically" and "art" in the same sentence i need to do something unspeakable to myself with a pair of pliers and a razorblade), it does however include two pieces of art.
its easy to define what ISNT art but defining what IS art is VERY difficult.
apply this to video games, lets say, resident evil. crappy games in most ways, not art (except in one element, and they only really got one thing right here), ill admit, but it has the best clearest example here i can think of: the technical aspects of game design help to inspire fear. you have to STOP to even aim your gun, then shoot it, with zombies coming at you from at least one, perhaps even up to four directions. they use the interactive element to provoke emotions, and yes, it only works when combined with the visual and possibly auditory elements, perhaps even enhanced by the storytelling if your a retarded person or love crap. and even then, it doesnt do it very WELL, but it does it, at least a little bit. if there was even a shred of creativity in the franchise it would probably be art.
im not saying the games in the article were NOT art, im saying the reasons given that they were art are judging it by the merits of other mediums. and thats fucking stupid. look at the use of colors, of lighting and shadows, and of storytelling and literary devices in beethovens work. absolute rubbish. sure, the instuments might cast a cool shadow when played by a specific *those groups of people who play musical instruments*, but thats just a coincidence. look at the *insert musical term here* in anything by picasso. absolute rubbish. not art. not even approaching art. it almost doesnt exist. the only noises it ever makes are when you drop it, or roll it up. not worth the canvas its painted on.
a movie that looks damn pretty, but is just one frame set to music, is not art(well technically it could be, but for using the words "technically" and "art" in the same sentence i need to do something unspeakable to myself with a pair of pliers and a razorblade), it does however include two pieces of art.
its easy to define what ISNT art but defining what IS art is VERY difficult.
apply this to video games, lets say, resident evil. crappy games in most ways, not art (except in one element, and they only really got one thing right here), ill admit, but it has the best clearest example here i can think of: the technical aspects of game design help to inspire fear. you have to STOP to even aim your gun, then shoot it, with zombies coming at you from at least one, perhaps even up to four directions. they use the interactive element to provoke emotions, and yes, it only works when combined with the visual and possibly auditory elements, perhaps even enhanced by the storytelling if your a retarded person or love crap. and even then, it doesnt do it very WELL, but it does it, at least a little bit. if there was even a shred of creativity in the franchise it would probably be art.
im not saying the games in the article were NOT art, im saying the reasons given that they were art are judging it by the merits of other mediums. and thats fucking stupid. look at the use of colors, of lighting and shadows, and of storytelling and literary devices in beethovens work. absolute rubbish. sure, the instuments might cast a cool shadow when played by a specific *those groups of people who play musical instruments*, but thats just a coincidence. look at the *insert musical term here* in anything by picasso. absolute rubbish. not art. not even approaching art. it almost doesnt exist. the only noises it ever makes are when you drop it, or roll it up. not worth the canvas its painted on.
Buddy, I've been going to art school most of my life, you don't need to define the difference between art and craft to me. The key here for me is that there can be bad art, but no one has a right to say that one game is art and another is craft.roblikestoskate said:
Could've fooled me, man; My apologies. I'm proposing, for the benefit of discussion, the idea of objective art criticism, where we look at what the developer was trying to accomplish and use that as a metric of artistic worth (how effective . Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, but I don't think all games are equally worth discussing. Maybe your interpretation of Tetris is more interesting than mine. I'm also trying to make a distinction that keeps cropping up in this thread. Aesthetics are one thing, but a finely crafted background does not necessarily elevate an entire work unless it's implications reach far into the other aspects of the game. Thoughts?Fightgarr said:
Also, just for fun, check this out:
http://www.bogost.com/books/unit_operations.shtml