Games Designers- whats wrong with them?

[Batfred]

Because they like storyline as much as kick assery??

Kick assery > story

fact. If you dont believe that.. go read a book

Thats the beauty of game- they let you do things which kick ass!!

Nope;
Kick Assery = Fun
Plot = Story

And I usually read more than I game Good Sir ;-)

By the way in case you mis-interpreted by Kick Assery I meant "beat the fucking shit out of everything"

Hi Tiny116, not flaming, just pointing out something I noticed that may have added to some confusion.

spikeyjoey said "Kick assery > story" where the > means greater than. This is not what you seem to have read by your statement:
"Nope;
Kick Assery = Fun
Plot = Story"

Apologies if I'm butting in there, but I hope that helps make you two play nice.

 

[Batfred]

Oh, LBP. It made a MINT!

That wasn't really that original though. They just built a level editor for Mario and then let you dress up your character. It's the same with Garry's Mod, it's just a toolset, the real creativity comes from the players.

Isn't that user freedom in itself original?

Either way, that combination of platformer and ultimate modder hasn't been combined before and it was a huge success... Hey! Wait a second! I'm backing you up here man and you're shooting me down!

 

[spikeyjoey]

I think that blue_guy has the right idea and some of you are riding spikeyjoey a little hard (what an enduring image).

Sorry if I am speaking out of turn spikeyjoey, but I think that what he is trying to say is that ideas are 10 a penny, so why do we keep seeing the same game again and again with different packaging?

heh..
excactly..

and i refuse to beleive its because pulishers dont want to take risks.. they are hardly ground breaking concepts, just games that would obviously be (or at least appear to be) fun, so would therefore sell, as games = fun

spikeyjoey said "Kick assery > story" where the > means greater than. This is not what you seem to have read by your statement:
"Nope;
Kick Assery = Fun
Plot = Story"

Apologies if I'm butting in there, but I hope that helps make you two play nice.

^^

this.. dont worry though, there was no danger of a flame war..im sure we're both mature - we're book readers for gods sake!

 

[Zersy]

They're just people who do jobs.

You wouldn't say, "whats wrong with starbucks employees?"

So you can't expect them all to be supermen.

Almost all the post I go on your the first to reply, Damn your a fast foroum ninja !

 

[Tiny116]

Hi Tiny116, not flaming, just pointing out something I noticed that may have added to some confusion.

spikeyjoey said "Kick assery > story" where the > means greater than. This is not what you seem to have read by your statement:
"Nope;
Kick Assery = Fun
Plot = Story"

Apologies if I'm butting in there, but I hope that helps make you two play nice.

Hm, that makes a certain kind of sense, I took > to mean "leads to" which is more or less the same as =.
And Butt away makes for more discussion!
But I thought me and Spkieyjoey were playing nice! A good hearted discussion with passion! XD.

EDIT{got my sentances mixed up} Though I'd disagree that Kick assery is always greater than plot or story. depends on the game

(And i don't think you were flaming either)

 

[Lemon Of Life]

Well, I'd rather have creativity. But I guess Mirror's Edge was Super Mario Bros + Call of Duty. So...maybe a blend can produce something unique. Life is a journey of discovery.

 

[PxDn Ninja]

That new daybreakers film has been described as "28 days later meets the matrix"

for a film you can almost guarantee "popular film meets popular film" is either going to be shite or, "alright"

With games however.. i was doing this in the kitchen while making my lunch

"28 days later game (dead rising) meets matrix game (the matrix game)".. essentially dead rising, but where you kung fu the zombies rather than hurl household objects at them (kung fu + zombies.. how could that not rule?)

do it with others- "dead rising + condemned" FP zombie bashing with pipes

"dead rising + fallout" mad max esque post apocolyptic survival.. with zombies..


um.. ok dead rising + other game aside, I thought it could work for almost any with a little bit of imagination.. so i tried it with the fist game that came into my head- Ass creed 2.. hmm.. best match for that would probably be.. mirrors edge AC3+ME = maybe some sort of robin hood type game.. have it as fps like ME, but with a bow and arrow.. + lots of free running and assassination..

Its so easy

And in the "post your ideas for games" thread, there are some killer ideas.

So why arent these epic games being made??

The issue is all you are describing are not truly game ideas. They are what we would call "high concepts" at best.

A designer has to be able to look at a high concept and answer a lot of questions about it.

Who is it targeting as a market?
What kind of story will it have?
How will the controls work?
What platform are we considering?
Will it have multiplayer?
How much multiplayer?
Is multiplayer the primary focus?
How will player progression be identified?
What sort of engine should be used?
1080p?
How can we provide a complete experience, but keep it open for DLC?
What products will it compete with?
When is it's launch window, or what would be optimal?

These are just a few of the many questions the designer has to come up with. Once that happens, producers have to sign off on the project, and development directors sign off that the tech is feasible. Once ALL of this is done, then the game can be made.

Your idea of Dead Rising + Fallout has probably been pitched time and time again, but these questions all weren't answered to the satisfaction of the production house so the title didn't happen.

 

[Axolotl]

So why arent these epic games being made??

Originality kills companies. Black Isle and Troika focused on make different gmaes in new and interesting setting unlike any other RPG's. They're both gone now but Bioware who kept to the same formula for over a decade have gone from strength to strength.
Beyond Good and Evil sold badly, and most other games that did things differently sell badly.

For this reason publishers don't fund games that aren't copies of big sellers so developers don't make games that aren't copies of big sellers.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Ok, just to let you know... your ideas have actually been done already.

*Dead Rising + Matrix: It has been done as segments in various games, but no one has made an ENTIRE game out of it... why? cause it would be a crap genre clashing beat em' up.

*Dead Rising + Condemned: It's been done... IN DEAD RISING if you want it in an FPS then all your doing is changing the formula not the game.

*Dead Rising + Fallout: Fallout had zombie sequences but they were under the guise of ghouls. I heard theres a zombie rpg in the works but don't know anything about it.

*AssCreed 2+ Mirrors Edge: Come on... THIEF! Seriously your not very well versed in gaming are you.

My point, its not that easy to put two ideas together and make it awesome... all your ideas have been done but 3 of them don't warrant a full game. It would be far too shallow of an experience. Plain ignorance on your part really.

 

[spikeyjoey]

The issue is all you are describing are not truly game ideas. They are what we would call "high concepts" at best.

A designer has to be able to look at a high concept and answer a lot of questions about it.

Who is it targeting as a market? the standard 18-25 male demographic
What kind of story will it have? I decided not to bore you with story ideas, a basic gameworthy story wouldnt be all that hard to implement (at least an into wouldnt.. conclusions are always tricky) as i said, give me a week
How will the controls work? most of the ideas i suggested could use the control scheme of the games i based them on
What platform are we considering? xbox, ps3, maybe pc
Will it have multiplayer? no
How much multiplayer?
Is multiplayer the primary focus?
How will player progression be identified? better guns, more combat moves..
What sort of engine should be used?
1080p?
How can we provide a complete experience, but keep it open for DLC?
What products will it compete with?
When is it's launch window, or what would be optimal?

These are just a few of the many questions the designer has to come up with. Once that happens, producers have to sign off on the project, and development directors sign off that the tech is feasible. Once ALL of this is done, then the game can be made.

Your idea of Dead Rising + Fallout has probably been pitched time and time again, but these questions all weren't answered to the satisfaction of the production house so the title didn't happen.

ok ok i get your point.. but i think your all delving into what im saying a little too deeply.. keep in mind i came up with these ideas (and therefore the idea for the thread) in about 2 minutes

and looking over my games collection, i realise i wasnt really bring fair (i was basing my opinion on upcoming games)..

condemned- awesome, innovative game (still think it might have been cool with zombies though- mayb im just obsessed

Oblivion- awesome, innovative (well.. not really, more a morrowind sequel, but sequels arent a bad thing.. neccesarily)

rainbow 6.. its a swat team game.. thats enough.. tekken 6.. Etc etc.. either sufficiently innovative games or genres that dont need it (like racing or beat em ups)

then

Far cry 2... very good game, but it quite nicely sums up what im trying to say here it could have been so much better. I know i keep banging on about post apocolyptic enviroments, (its not just games- Post apoc films are awesome too) and i dont mean to seem like a fallout fanboy (although i am ).. but imagine how much cooler that would have been.

And aswell as having cool concepts ignored- its stupid concepts implemented. You mentioned all that stuff about greenlighting and teams having to agree and all that- so how do these ideas get through!??.. Some games have these mechanics that are at best, not adding to the gameplay, and at a worst, a downright pain in the ass. Yes "main character has maleria" I am reffering to you..

 

[spikeyjoey]

Ok, just to let you know... your ideas have actually been done already.

*Dead Rising + Matrix: It has been done as segments in various games, but no one has made an ENTIRE game out of it... why? cause it would be a crap genre clashing beat em' up.

*Dead Rising + Condemned: It's been done... IN DEAD RISING if you want it in an FPS then all your doing is changing the formula not the game.

*Dead Rising + Fallout: Fallout had zombie sequences but they were under the guise of ghouls. I heard theres a zombie rpg in the works but don't know anything about it.

*AssCreed 2+ Mirrors Edge: Come on... THIEF! Seriously your not very well versed in gaming are you.

My point, its not that easy to put two ideas together and make it awesome... all your ideas have been done but 3 of them don't warrant a full game. It would be far too shallow of an experience. Plain ignorance on your part really.

no need to be a dick

and no, dead rising + condemned was not done.. dead rising was not an atmospheric, dark game, where the zombies were scary, and caving their faces in with a pipe was not a visceral experience..

Thief had very little free running if i remember rightly..

And dead rising + fallout3 should be dead risng + far cry 2, set in the fallout world.. my bad

 

[bawkbawkboo1]

They were making great games, but then they got distracted by you avatar.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Whatever I said

no need to be a dick

and no, dead rising + condemned was not done.. dead rising was not an atmospheric, dark game, where the zombies were scary, and caving their faces in with a pipe was not a visceral experience..

Thief had very little free running if i remember rightly..

And dead rising + fallout3 should be dead risng + far cry 2, set in the fallout world.. my bad

Sorry if i was a bit crude. But you have to admit your topic (even it's title) was bound to rub hairs. Thief didn't have free running as such but it was similar in that you approached the game as a puzzle rather then a shooter difference beings technology was on Mirrors Edge side(and when you said "like robin hood" thief was the first thing to hit me.) ... I would like to see a new thief, i imagine it would be similar to what your thinking.

As for the condemned zombie fest idea... zombies are inherantly not scary... thats like saying ninjas and pirates are scary. The age of the scary zombie is gone. Now they only serve to be meat bags in a gore fest. (unless you still find the likes of Resie Evil scary.)

 

[spikeyjoey]

In short.
1) Leave Game Designers alone until you know exactly what their job is.
2) Stop writing like you know what the deal is when it comes to game design.
3) Stop making me laugh with your funny ideas.
4) Quit taking that patronizing and condescendant tone when you talk out of your ass.
5) Read what PxDn Ninja wrote above me and learn. (although I don't like that his/her post was so forgiving and polite). I must also disagree on one point from PxDn Ninja's post.
I have never heard of a video game company where Game Designers decide the launch date or what engine is used in the production.

Christ your a humourless little bastard arent you?

I never claimed to know how games are designed.

Patronising and condescending? No im just a little annoyed at dicks like you attacking me for a harmless thread. My POV just didnt come across very well, but if you bothered to read all the thread you would have seen other people posting "um.. what i think he meant to say.." which i agreed with.

I suppose should apologise to any games designers who thought i was attacking them, it was not the case.

There is nothing wrong with being forgiving and polite.


To RagNstiches: No problem, I also apologise for calling you a dick .. I do believe zombies can still be scary.. Iv had my share of frights in left for dead! But i suppose LFD does fit your "meat bags in a gore fest" category..

The resi evil remake sort of added a bit of fear back with the fast zombies.. I think zombies lurching out of the shadows would be pretty scary.. especially if they were quite tough and had the power of number

 

[spikeyjoey]

so.. your a games designer then?

 

[mattman106]

That new daybreakers film has been described as "28 days later meets the matrix"

for a film you can almost guarantee "popular film meets popular film" is either going to be shite or, "alright"

With games however.. i was doing this in the kitchen while making my lunch

"28 days later game (dead rising) meets matrix game (the matrix game)".. essentially dead rising, but where you kung fu the zombies rather than hurl household objects at them (kung fu + zombies.. how could that not rule?)

do it with others- "dead rising + condemned" FP zombie bashing with pipes

"dead rising + fallout" mad max esque post apocolyptic survival.. with zombies..


um.. ok dead rising + other game aside, I thought it could work for almost any with a little bit of imagination.. so i tried it with the fist game that came into my head- Ass creed 2.. hmm.. best match for that would probably be.. mirrors edge AC3+ME = maybe some sort of robin hood type game.. have it as fps like ME, but with a bow and arrow.. + lots of free running and assassination..

Its so easy

And in the "post your ideas for games" thread, there are some killer ideas.

So why arent these epic games being made??

These are all things that probably happened in the 8 and 16 bit era or the 'batshit insane era' as I like to call it. Then people invented graphics which apparently sucked most of the imagination out of games

 

[Twad]

THe average game designer cant do as he want, since the publisher is pulling all the strings, they have limited time to do it (sometimes very little), limited budget... ect ect

 

[wordsmith]

Spoiler: this game

This game [http://www.elderscrolls.com/home/home.php]

Spoiler: This combat

This combat [http://www.toribash.com/]

 

[rex922]

the thing i think people should understand about game designers is that not always does an idea come from them sometimes a game is already lined up for them and they have to stick with it and design the gameplay to fit that idea

 

[Darmort]

Game Designers DO NOT decide which games a company makes. The company executives (and shareholders)decide that, almost always without asking the game designer's opinion.

Just imagine what the games designers must have thought when they were told to make Hello Kitty games. *Shudders*

From what I know, when a games designer comes up with his or her idea they write it down, get down all the basics of what a character can do, such as running, jumping, various special mechanics inside the game and so on before sharing it with fellow designers. They'll point out any flaws in the idea, ask questions about design ideas and overall try to find holes in it, to which the games designer will answer the questions as best s/he can. If they pass that initial trial by fire, maybe, just maybe, the producer will pitch it to the heads (programmers, modellers, artists, designers and so on) where they ensure everything is possible and easily feasible, before the design document and the pitch document are written, and the pitch document shown to the shareholders and producers. Only about 10% of game ideas get that far.

According to one of the senior designers at Codemasters who came into our class to talk about his work. It may vary depending on the producers and company's organisation, but I'd imagine that it works something like that throughout the industry to an extent.