I don't get the example, but I get the gist of what you're trying to say, but it doesn't expunge what was originally technically shaky writing. The Mona Lisa was never finished and it is judged on those merits. Why shouldn't games be judged just as equally?Kahunaburger said:
Games that have outstanding writing
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For all it's warts I liked the writing in MAss Effect 1 and 3. Far less so in 2. Personal opinion only and it would not really stand up to a critical argument.
Both KotOR games had great writing. Especially the second. For reasons already given I am certain.
I enjoyed the story in The Witcher for it's gritty uncompromising world.
But my all time favorites that I experienced directly were in no particular order:
Fallout 1 and 2: open world? Check
Effective use of Choice and consequences? Check.
Sense of exploration? Check.
Those 2 games are classic for a bloody reason.
Another was Alpha Protocol. Scratch the exploration but the way player action was handled in that game was second to no other I had played personally. It was even better for the fact that even as a player you really could not get much of a sense of Mike Thorton's true personality. He manipulates the player nearly as much as everyone else. Well as long as you do not go for the thug approach then he is pretty transparent. It was a rough beast but very well written in my opinion.
Honorable mention goes to Deus Ex Human revolution. Mostly because I picked up little real personality from Adam Jensen. Just a security chief doing his job. He was badass, skilled and suave but I felt no sense of soul from him at all. That counted against the writing fairly heavily for me.
Both KotOR games had great writing. Especially the second. For reasons already given I am certain.
I enjoyed the story in The Witcher for it's gritty uncompromising world.
But my all time favorites that I experienced directly were in no particular order:
Fallout 1 and 2: open world? Check
Effective use of Choice and consequences? Check.
Sense of exploration? Check.
Those 2 games are classic for a bloody reason.
Another was Alpha Protocol. Scratch the exploration but the way player action was handled in that game was second to no other I had played personally. It was even better for the fact that even as a player you really could not get much of a sense of Mike Thorton's true personality. He manipulates the player nearly as much as everyone else. Well as long as you do not go for the thug approach then he is pretty transparent. It was a rough beast but very well written in my opinion.
Honorable mention goes to Deus Ex Human revolution. Mostly because I picked up little real personality from Adam Jensen. Just a security chief doing his job. He was badass, skilled and suave but I felt no sense of soul from him at all. That counted against the writing fairly heavily for me.
We only have one Mona Lisa to evaluate. We have multiple versions of KOTOR II, The Hobbit, Blade Runner, Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (film version), Star Wars IV, etc. When evaluating these, people have a wide variety of options to choose from, and don't just arbitrarily select the one that was released first.Inkidu said:
Specifically when saying "let's evaluate KOTOR II's script," it makes the most sense to me to evaluate the version with greater fidelity to the script.
damn, ninja'sNorrdicus said:
but LoK, Portal 1-2 and a lot of older JRPGs like Parasite Eve had really good writing (though PE is based on a book ...)
How has this thread gone to 3 pages without someone mentioning Xenogears?
This is probably one of the very best stories ever told in a game.
The gameplay was fairly average to mediocre though, things actually improved part way through Disc 2 when they ran out of time/money and most of the story was told by characters sitting on a chair talking in an empty room
I also agree with The Longest Journey (I really want to see the end of that story sometime), L.A. Noire, Bioshock, Monkey Island, and pretty much everything by Valve or Rockstar.
This is probably one of the very best stories ever told in a game.
The gameplay was fairly average to mediocre though, things actually improved part way through Disc 2 when they ran out of time/money and most of the story was told by characters sitting on a chair talking in an empty room
I also agree with The Longest Journey (I really want to see the end of that story sometime), L.A. Noire, Bioshock, Monkey Island, and pretty much everything by Valve or Rockstar.
Most of Mass Effect (except that one part we don't talk about)
KOTOR 2
NWN2, but infinitely moreso in Mask of the Betrayer
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex: Human Revolution (a little iffy, especially with the contrived boss fights, but the character writing and voice acting was good enough to pull it off)
The Fallout series' writing has always been pretty good; even at its' worst, it's been passable. (Not including the spin-off Tactics, as I haven't played that yet so I wouldn't know)
KOTOR 2
NWN2, but infinitely moreso in Mask of the Betrayer
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex: Human Revolution (a little iffy, especially with the contrived boss fights, but the character writing and voice acting was good enough to pull it off)
The Fallout series' writing has always been pretty good; even at its' worst, it's been passable. (Not including the spin-off Tactics, as I haven't played that yet so I wouldn't know)
No mention of Chrono Trigger? Not even from the guy with Magus as his avatar? Frog's backstory alone is, in my opinion, one of the greater stories in video game history.
Final Fantasy Tactics, on the PSP where the translation is more readable. Vagrant Story, FFVI and IX as well. Every SMT. Lost Odyssey. Most old-school point `n clickers, MGS series, Psychonauts and Bioshock all stick out.
I agree entirely. In fact, MoB pretty much sparked my gaming enthusiasm.Saladfork said:
DA:O and Mass Effect series : I think Bioware excels in characters/dialogue (much more than in creating great story lines) BUT I would say that a good portion of it has to do with the fact that they hired great voice actors.
I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with Fallout NV. The characters are really good, the universe, while violent and depressing, still have a lot of funny/sweet/strange moments and everything forms a cohesive world.
Oh, and Bloodline is really great.
I don't know if its been said before but Enslaved: Odyssey to the West has the best writing I have ever seen in a game. Remember in English class how you had to read Of Mice and Men or Lord of The Flies whatever and you had to realise that each tiny little action had a dozen different meanings? And that each character could be interpreted in a bajillion different ways? Yeah, Enslaved made me do that. Automatically.
You realise that's kind of the point right? He's a throwback to JC Denton from the original Deus Ex, famously portrayed as a blank slate. The idea's supposedly that having a personality-less player character effectively allows him to be used as your avatar for interaction with the world - essentially, your thoughts are his.jklinders said:
I keep going under the impression that no one plays those games, but they are excellent!psicat said:
Lord Mountbatten Reborn said:
I won't disagree with the intent made, but I will disagree with the effect. When you place a voice to the protagonist you are in effect stating an intent to give him/her a personality. This is the primary argument that old school RPG gamers have in opposition to a voiced protagonist. JC Denton's VO delivery was so flat it had to be deliberate. So why give him a voice at all? If the intent is to let the player fill in the blanks then do away with voice acting. This frees you up to have more than three dialogue options that allow for more customization and a more refined personality.
I guess what I'm saying is, if this was the intent, it failed for me. You need to go all one way or the other. I am not against a voiced protagonist. I rather enjoy it actually. But it need to be done all in, not some half and half if it is not to fall flat.
Fallout 2: One of my favourite games of all time! I've played it since it came out & it still makes me laugh!
Bioshock: It was more because of the audio logs & how they made me want to find them so I could find out what happened to certain characters.
Beneath a Steel Sky: Whilst ive had my gog account for awhile I only recently played it! So funny & its definately made me glad i played it!
Eat Lead, The Story of Matt Hazard: I bought it the other week as it calls itself a spoof of action games over the last 25 years & it actually does it well! Whilst the gameplay is lackluster the writing is what kept me playing.
Baldur's Gate: Greatly written epic & some of the most memorable characters in any rpg!
Bioshock: It was more because of the audio logs & how they made me want to find them so I could find out what happened to certain characters.
Beneath a Steel Sky: Whilst ive had my gog account for awhile I only recently played it! So funny & its definately made me glad i played it!
Eat Lead, The Story of Matt Hazard: I bought it the other week as it calls itself a spoof of action games over the last 25 years & it actually does it well! Whilst the gameplay is lackluster the writing is what kept me playing.
Baldur's Gate: Greatly written epic & some of the most memorable characters in any rpg!
When it comes to the characters Bioware and Obsidian do a good job.
999 on Nintendo DS was well written all round in that it knew how to play with your expectations and deconstruct seemingly cliched characters.
The story and audio logs in System Shock 2 & Bioshock were very well-written.
A couple others:
Vampires: The Masquerade - Bloodlines,
Killer 7,
Ghost Trick,
Sam & Max (very clever dialogue),
Dues Ex,
Dreamfall: The Longest Journey,
Persona 3 & Persona 4,
I'm sure i'm forgetting some though.
999 on Nintendo DS was well written all round in that it knew how to play with your expectations and deconstruct seemingly cliched characters.
The story and audio logs in System Shock 2 & Bioshock were very well-written.
A couple others:
Vampires: The Masquerade - Bloodlines,
Killer 7,
Ghost Trick,
Sam & Max (very clever dialogue),
Dues Ex,
Dreamfall: The Longest Journey,
Persona 3 & Persona 4,
I'm sure i'm forgetting some though.