Games where neither character is right

[Single Shot]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly.

"HTTP 404 Not Found" - Now that is a truly inspirational quote. I'm guessing you mean something to do with this quote.

"I've been out of the abbey two days. I've beaten a lawman senseless. Fallen in with criminals. I watched the captain shoot the man I swore to protect. And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong."

Thanks for finding the quote. Since the original guy is banned I guess it's probably not worthwhile quoting him in?

I think that line is still totally in sync with me, I'm a pretty big Firefly fan and I was individually reviewing each episode when I was first thinking about this and I feel like there was only one time when they didn't write Book properly (which was when River ripped up his bible and he gave a talk about how it didn't matter whether symbols were true or not) and even then, it's possible it's deliberate because it was always hinted that Book wasn't a preacher his whole life and when they revealed his secret that's definitely how it turned out.

When he says the line about "And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong." he's got a lot of agony in his voice and is clearly being legitimately shaken by events. It's not like he's suddenly cast off everything he had previously thought and he gives it consideration and eventually finds something he's comfortable with instead of say, becoming atheist or whatever.

(and of course it's fine to have characters change and convert/de-convert. You just need to make sure y ou're doing it because that's what's right for the story and not because you writing some Atheist/Christian wishfulfillment fantasy where everyone ends up agreeing with your cunning arguments and becomes more like you)

I won't ruin too much for you, but you're right. I suggest you read the "A Shepard's tale" comic at some point. It goes through Book's life from abusive childhood to the moment Kaylee welcome's him aboard.

There is a lot of old pain and in that man, and it becomes clear that the whole crew has 3 basic backstories and are only really shaped by how they've responded to it.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Quarians acted like children with their hands caught in the cookie jar, and attempted to kill the Geth out of fear, not just of the Geth, but of being slapped down legally by the Council. Their actions precipitated the war, and their measure so extreme they killed their own people to get to the Geth, despite the Geth initially not wanting to fight back but rather diplomatically solve the issue. They opened the damn door and couldn't close it so they blew up the house. Quarians were responsible for the Geth, and even though the Geth were now gaining Sapience, they weren't perfect beings and responded in kind AFTER they had no other choice. Quarians were the most guilty party because they handled the situation like scared children, and the Geth literally were children. Can't expect a new race, no matter how much info they had access to, to get things right and know intrinsically what the right action. The Geth may have gone overboard but the Quarians were the ones who taught them that genocide was perfectly ok. Having your tactics sent back at you doesn't absolve you from the crime, and since the Quarians were the parent in this situation they're more than responsible for the Geth's actions. Criminal Facilitation in my book. Quarians taught the Geth by their own actions genocide was acceptible, thereby facilitating the Geth response. And later the Geth did express remorse, the Quarians never seemed to admit any culpability other than "oops we created the Geth, tried to kill them and they went berserk! Pity us!"
Some advanced Civilization...

But as this is my final word, I'll just agree to disagree with the opposition. Just wanted to state my view a little more concise after thinking it over more. And to say that neither side was right but the Geth were wronged most and harmed most by the Quarian actions, the Quarian were lucky the Geth simply didn't go Skynet on them at first sapient thought.

 

[Cybylt]

Say what you want about Skyrim's civil war questline, I enjoyed how, in the end, neither side was right and it was just a matter of personal belief. Both sides were kind of rigth and a dick at the same time. After the disappointment on how Fallout: New Vegas failed to deliver their promise of grey & grey, it was quite refreshing.

Ehhh, I can't help but feel one side is on shakier ground if we're being generous since it's discovered early on that they're backed by the pretty literal elf nazis and lead by sleepers... and they promote xenophobic agendas as one of their selling points.

Also the things they claim to be against including elf nazi occupation and religious suppression were never even a reality until they started killing people over it.

On the Imperial end... they let organized crime go on in the ass end of Skyrim.

All they could really complain about was that the empire didn't fight to the last man when they had the chance. But their own actions are undermining that very possibility in the future. A united empire is a threat, a fractured one is ripe for Aldmeri "cleansing."

Snip

One problem with all that. Advanced AI wasn't an offense against the Council races until after the Geth took the Quarian homeworld.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

A small minority of higher up quarians decided to shut down the geth yet you continue to project blame onto them all by virtue of them sharing the same race.

I really wanted to leave it as is but you're acting on false pretense here. I feel I must correct you on this, the Quarian government decided to terminate the Geth after a few Geth asked their Quarian masters if the Geth had souls. The Government handed the edict down to the entire race: "Terminate your Geth servants". They believed that they could terminate the Geth before they knew what was happening. The Geth did not respond in violence until the Quarians panicked and opened fire which prompted the Geth to think about picking up weapons and fighting back, and even then there were Geth who remained loyal to their creators and tried to protect the Geth sympathizers in the Quarian ranks by putting themselves in harms way. The Quarians as a RACE knew what was transpiring but only a minority opposed it. Its not as if this was a quiet hush-hush thing that only a select few Quarians had knowledge. The war escalated, the Quarians declared martial law and were soundly routed.
You say it like there were only a few Quarians who decided the Geth must die, if that were so, wouldn't the Quarians opposed to killing the Geth have outnumbered the ones who wanted them dead and thus would have had the strength in numbers to stop the war before it escalated? Its not as if the Quarians weren't free thinkers and couldn't act against the wishes of an immoral government order. If there were more who didn't support it than who did, why didn't they stop it?
The Geth, I must repeat, didn't think of fighting back against the shutdown order until the Quarians fired upon them only then it occured to the Geth to pick up arms. That the Quarians didn't try diplomacy first is the paramount reason they were guilty, the Geth only fought to defend themselves. And when the Quarians fled the homeworld, the Geth did not pursue because they were unsure of total genocide as an option and the Quarians didn't pose much of a threat anymore.
Had the Quarians stood up to their government it could have been avoided. But they didn't, and they paid the price for it with every misstep thereafter.
So again, it wasn't a minority, the Geth supporters were in the minority, even after some Geth went out of their way to protect the Quarians who sympathized with the Geth.
I don't see how the Quarians weren't ultimately responsible for the war and the deaths of 99% of their race.

 

[EyeReaper]

First thing that pops into my mind is Saints Row 2, in which you try your very best to out-asshole everyone not in your gang. Not a single person can say that the boss of the Third Street Saints is a good person, he/she/both is a sociopathic mass murdering hedonist. This is the guy who replaces tattoo ink with nuclear waste and drives around spraying shit everywhere in a septic truck.

Besides that? well, Any game with a moral choice system, I guess, Like Infamous. Evil cole is a monster.

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

The worst that happened to the geth was they were victims of an attempted genocide. The Quarians however had billions of innocent non-combatants slaughtered, lost family and friends, were booted off their homeworld and banned from the galactic community by virtue of their race.

Can you please explain what the difference here is, other than the fact that the Geth were successful and the Quarians were not? Genocide includes the murder of non-combatants, which 100% of the Geth were before they were attacked. Surely this is an indication that each race is equally bad, and that the Geth are not deserving of this level of demonisation you attribute to them?

I would argue that even by the time of the events of Mass Effect 2, the Geth still did not fully understand individuality.

In which case that would simply make them unbelievably stupid.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because the Geth, as a newly emerged Artificial Intelligence, were not yet capable of comprehending a type of consciousness entirely unlike their own, they deserve to be targeted by the Quarians?

It is quite clearly stated that the vast majority of Geth were involved in agricultural and construction work; not capacities that require a great deal of emotional intelligence or empathy. The Geth did not make a sudden leap from dumb machine to a fully sapient AI capable of empathy, etc. one of the major points of the Quarian/Geth campaign in ME3 was that they were trying to become fully adapted AI's through the assimilation of Reaper code. If they had still failed to develop this level of understanding or intelligence after several hundred years of improvement and development since the Morning War, what chance did the early Geth have?

 

[Silvanus]

In which case that would simply make them unbelievably stupid.

They have the time, ability and resources to understand it they just simply refuse.

Would you say you fully understand collective consciousness?

Nope.

Mass Efrfect has simply hijacked an already popular sci-fi debate and tackled it terribly.

You seem to have missed my point.

It has sparked genuine debate. It's done an impressive thing, which is something relatively few games succeed in doing.

I say this as an Asimov fan.

Wiping out 99% of the population and killing billions of non-combatants was in no necessary to defeat the quarians. That is the MAIN point I have been making the whole time.

I agree with you on your main point, by the way.

 

[Krais101]

For the Geth/Quarian war, I would like to propose a hypothetical situation. Nil, you mentioned the possiblity them looking at the data and history. Well let's thing what that would show. If the Quarians had history even remotely similar to human history then they would of probably had a lot of wars between old enemies, each time with a high death toll. Then imagine they look at the other races as well. The Rachni, the Krogans and the Genophage, the Turians (such a militaristic culture must of had a very similar cycle of wars to us) and all the other races. All this data telling them one thing, if they live, they will attack again. And so, as emotionless AI would do, they did the maths. Overall killing them all would result in them killing less over time. Now of course to us that seems wrong, but the Geth lack the emotions and morality that inform that decision. And so they eliminated them all in the misguided believe that genocide was better than a cycle of war. Of course that doesn't explain why they didn't chase them and eliminate them completely. Perhaps they believed, like the creators of the Genophage did with the Krogan, that a reduced population would result in the Quarians being too scared to attack as the value of an individual life is higher than the original war.

I mean that's just my theory, but to me it explains it. I don't think it JUSTIFIES it, but I think it explains it.

 

[duchaked]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly. I always think it's a great ability for a writer when they can write someone with religious views other than their own and not have them ultimately be wrong. But even better than that, Joss Whedon allowed Book to have the dignity that Book believes his religion will give him. It's such an easy trap to be religious and write an atheist whose ultimately short-sighted or stupid or lacking a special something in his life. It's a good thing to be able to write one instead whose thought about his life choices and lives his life in a way that he's generally happy with

I do like for the most part how Book worked as a character, but the easy trap you talk about definitely goes both ways. There were some moments where I felt the writing for Book's character were a bit spotty, but ultimately it worked because of Book's darker history and how in the end he was a good man and better because of his beliefs. He made for a good counter to Mal (who lost his faith because of his brokenness whereas Book gained his), but both are good men in the same crew/family.

And like all things Firefly...wish they'd been able to continue telling their stories in the show! :c comic books just don't quite cut it lol

 

[BrotherRool]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly. I always think it's a great ability for a writer when they can write someone with religious views other than their own and not have them ultimately be wrong. But even better than that, Joss Whedon allowed Book to have the dignity that Book believes his religion will give him. It's such an easy trap to be religious and write an atheist whose ultimately short-sighted or stupid or lacking a special something in his life. It's a good thing to be able to write one instead whose thought about his life choices and lives his life in a way that he's generally happy with

I do like for the most part how Book worked as a character, but the easy trap you talk about definitely goes both ways. There were some moments where I felt the writing for Book's character were a bit spotty, but ultimately it worked because of Book's darker history and how in the end he was a good man and better because of his beliefs. He made for a good counter to Mal (who lost his faith because of his brokenness whereas Book gained his), but both are good men in the same crew/family.

And like all things Firefly...wish they'd been able to continue telling their stories in the show! :c comic books just don't quite cut it lol

Oh yeah definitely, I didn't mean to suggest it was a one way thing, it's not even just a religious/areligious thing. Lots of writers really struggle to write someone with the other side of the political spectrum without having them ultimately be mistaken and you even get it a lot with little things, like the character who likes videogames happens to have some arrested development problem without which it's assumed he would have a totally different opinion.

Although more normally you just get a lot of characters where it doesn't even seem like they have a worldview, or it's all a sort of homogenous sameyness. In a lot of videogame plots (the bad ones) it can feel like only the player has any real kind of agency, never mind other characters having an agency which is then treated with respect. (Of course there are plenty of examples of videogames doing this right too which was the point of this thread!)

 

[duchaked]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly.

"HTTP 404 Not Found" - Now that is a truly inspirational quote. I'm guessing you mean something to do with this quote.

"I've been out of the abbey two days. I've beaten a lawman senseless. Fallen in with criminals. I watched the captain shoot the man I swore to protect. And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong."

Thanks for finding the quote. Since the original guy is banned I guess it's probably not worthwhile quoting him in?

I think that line is still totally in sync with me, I'm a pretty big Firefly fan and I was individually reviewing each episode when I was first thinking about this and I feel like there was only one time when they didn't write Book properly (which was when River ripped up his bible and he gave a talk about how it didn't matter whether symbols were true or not) and even then, it's possible it's deliberate because it was always hinted that Book wasn't a preacher his whole life and when they revealed his secret that's definitely how it turned out.

When he says the line about "And I'm not even sure if I think he was wrong." he's got a lot of agony in his voice and is clearly being legitimately shaken by events. It's not like he's suddenly cast off everything he had previously thought and he gives it consideration and eventually finds something he's comfortable with instead of say, becoming atheist or whatever.

(and of course it's fine to have characters change and convert/de-convert. You just need to make sure y ou're doing it because that's what's right for the story and not because you writing some Atheist/Christian wishfulfillment fantasy where everyone ends up agreeing with your cunning arguments and becomes more like you)

Oh I just replied to one of your comments, but then I saw this from you and yeah. We were thinking about that same thing haha

I doubt it was done deliberately, but I guess with the character it can work. It's pretty obvious that the writers are coming from the same mindset of Mal when writing the dialogue lol

And I also don't see Book's personal struggle with violence is entirely a religious thing. His conflict might also stem from the fact that he's moved away from a violent past, and reengaging in violence (even in righteous defense of people he loves) can be psychologically jarring. I wouldn't want to reawaken a part of me I'd rather stay away!

But yeah...the characters are real something, eh? =) I guess that's why I love Mass Effect too. The characters are pretty complex if you really look at them

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

Can you please explain what the difference here is, other than the fact that the Geth were successful and the Quarians were not?

Don't need to because you already have.

Being murdered is worse than having someone attempt to murder you.

How is the attempt to carry out an act better than successfully carrying out an act? A person can still be prosecuted with an equally long sentence for attempted murder, even if they never actually completed the act.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that because the Geth, as a newly emerged Artificial Intelligence, were not yet capable of comprehending a type of consciousness entirely unlike their own, they deserve to be targeted by the Quarians?

In no way shape or form is this even close to what I said and I'm dumbfounded that this is the conclusion you've come to.

Since I've already stated the argument three or so times simply reread what I have actually said.

You said that the Geth have not, whether through negligence or inability, learnt to relate to the Quarian perspective. Since you are clearly greatly in favour of the Quarian position, this would imply that you see this as a valid reason to support the Quarians. I would argue that just because a relatively young race cannot understand a very different set of standards and manner of perception does not change their merit as a species.

Would you say you fully understand collective consciousness?

Completely irrelevant and not necessary. I don't need to 'fully understand' geth psychology to have a basic understanding of how it works just like the geth don't need to 'fully understand' individual consciousness to merely have a grasp of the essentials. Of course the difference between a geth and I is that they can upload themselves to the information network and learn all of this information within moments.

Of course, the only reason you know this about the Geth is because it has been explained by a Geth character, via lengthy exposition. I doubt there were many Quarians willing to explain organic consciousness when they were on a war footing.

I also dispute the idea that the Geth would have had access to the information network. Rannoch, as the capital of a major citadel race (at the time) would have been well connected to the extranet, and the galaxy as a whole. If Geth programs had access to non-Geth systems on Rannoch, then they would have easily been able to infiltrate the extranet and migrate offworld, into the rest of citadel space. This would arguably be a much more effective survival strategy than a 'stand and fight' approach, and would have been more likely given their initial pacifist response. Since Geth are only present beyond he Perseus Veil (until they choose to venture outward), and there is no mention of a mass Geth expansion into the data systems of other races, it can be implied that the Geth did not have access to this vast deposit of millions of years of history that you keep referring to.

 

[duchaked]

What got me onto this line of thought is Sheperd Book in Firefly. I always think it's a great ability for a writer when they can write someone with religious views other than their own and not have them ultimately be wrong. But even better than that, Joss Whedon allowed Book to have the dignity that Book believes his religion will give him. It's such an easy trap to be religious and write an atheist whose ultimately short-sighted or stupid or lacking a special something in his life. It's a good thing to be able to write one instead whose thought about his life choices and lives his life in a way that he's generally happy with

I do like for the most part how Book worked as a character, but the easy trap you talk about definitely goes both ways. There were some moments where I felt the writing for Book's character were a bit spotty, but ultimately it worked because of Book's darker history and how in the end he was a good man and better because of his beliefs. He made for a good counter to Mal (who lost his faith because of his brokenness whereas Book gained his), but both are good men in the same crew/family.

And like all things Firefly...wish they'd been able to continue telling their stories in the show! :c comic books just don't quite cut it lol

Oh yeah definitely, I didn't mean to suggest it was a one way thing, it's not even just a religious/areligious thing. Lots of writers really struggle to write someone with the other side of the political spectrum without having them ultimately be mistaken and you even get it a lot with little things, like the character who likes videogames happens to have some arrested development problem without which it's assumed he would have a totally different opinion.

Although more normally you just get a lot of characters where it doesn't even seem like they have a worldview, or it's all a sort of homogenous sameyness. In a lot of videogame plots (the bad ones) it can feel like only the player has any real kind of agency, never mind other characters having an agency which is then treated with respect. (Of course there are plenty of examples of videogames doing this right too which was the point of this thread!)

Yeah sorry I feel silly cuz right after posting that I saw another one of your comments and replied to that, but took too long

I see a lot of Mass Effect discussion on here too and that's always fun loll...I don't get started that cuz I was supposed to write a paper 4 hours ago x.x

 

[Zhukov]

Wiping out 99% of the population and killing billions of non-combatants was in no necessary to defeat the quarians. That is the MAIN point I have been making the whole time.

Then your main point is wrong.

That 1% formed the Migrant Fleet, repopulated (somewhat), developed the network disruptor weapon and attacked the Geth again, inflicting massive damage and casualties. Killing 99% of their population did not eliminate the Quarian threat.

So not only was it necessary, it turned out to be insufficient.

 

[Zhukov]

Wiping out 99% of the population and killing billions of non-combatants was in no necessary to defeat the quarians. That is the MAIN point I have been making the whole time.

Then your main point is wrong.

That 1% formed the Migrant Fleet, repopulated (somewhat), developed the network disruptor weapon and attacked the Geth again, inflicting massive damage and casualties. Killing 99% of their population did not eliminate the Quarian threat.

Or maybe, just maybe (God forbid) they could try diplomacy before killing billions of innocent non-combatants.

They did try that.

Then the Quarians started killing them.

So not only was it necessary, it turned out to be insufficient.

(To beat a dead analogy)

I take it you believe that because of WWII all the Germans should have been killed after WWI.

In other words, do exactly what the Quarians tried to do?

 

[Something Amyss]

Also another one is Skyes of Arcidia. Your good pirates but your still damn pirates.

You're perfect Mary Sues out to save the world from an evil threat that turns ridiculously campy at a cetain point I won't spoil.

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

Moloch says the geth "suffered" more, I pointed out why this is obviously false by virtue of the fact that 99% of the quarians died and lost their homeplanet.

Obviously I haven't been clear; I have been trying to establish that the Geth were equally victims as much as the Quarians were. More precisely, I am trying to indicate that the Geth are not as morally wrong as you seem to believe they are, and that it was a much more even affair in terms of who was the perpetrator.

In all honesty, I don't believe either party is so much guilty of war crimes, as of naivety on the part of the Geth, and hysteria on the part of the Quarians. If the Quarians had not panicked and attempted mass genocide on the Geth, they would not have been forced to take up arms. Likewise, if the Geth had more experience with interacting with organics, they would have been able to develop a better strategy than 'kill them all'.

Of course, the only reason you know this about the Geth is because it has been explained by a Geth character, via lengthy exposition. I doubt there were many Quarians willing to explain organic consciousness when they were on a war footing.

Not necessary. They have access to their information network. I've been over this already.

how do we know this? To which lines of dialogue or codex entry are you referring?

1. We already know the geth did infiltrate the extranet via Legion's DLC logs.

If you are referring to the Lair of The Shadow Broker dossiers, then I am afraid you are slightly mistaken. The dossier shows Legion, from the Normandy, is able to access the Extranet in the same way as any other Extranet user could. What it does not show is Geth programs being able to access it from Rannoch, or any other Geth held location.

2. Not being able to move a large body of enemy geth units into Council territory is evidence that they can't access not only the galactic extranet but the local quarian internet too?

Not units, programs. As in, the various different subroutines that together make units such as Legion operate as an individual.
It is clearly stated both in in-game exposition and in he Codex that Geth programs are not attached to a particular physical form, and can move between them as they see fit. Since they consist of many individual programs, rather than the single, monumental quantum computing system that EDI is tied to, there is no reason why they could not flee Rannoch and hide in servers around the galaxy as digital refugees unless they were unable to access the extranet. The only feasible reason that they could not access it is that the Quarians threw up a firewall (or equivalent) to prevent Geth programs from escaping. If this was the case, then it is extremely likely that similar methods were used to protect their own cultural databases as well.

Alternatively, even if they did have access to the local Rannoch internet, why would they even think to look there? Geth do not have a 'culture' as such, even after the development they underwent after the Quarian exodus. Why would they even consider that searching the cultural background of the beings who they have served for every moment of their existence would yield any novel information?
Even if they did so, it is unlikely they would find much referring to individuality; there are several lines of dialogue that suggest that the idea of symbiosis with their planet was a key concept in pre-Migrant Fleet Quarian spirituality. A philosophy that espouses oneness with a greater collective (in this case, the ecosystem of Rannoch) would likely resonate with how the Geth view themselves, or at least be similar enough to cause confusion.

 

[Zhukov]

They did try that.

Then the Quarians started killing them.

It is absurd to believe that whilst they were losing the war they'd continue to fight and refuse any kind of diplomacy.

No, because they chose to flee instead. A reasonable enough course of action.

And the Geth allowed them to do that, incorrectly believing the Quarian threat to have been defeated.

In other words, do exactly what the Quarians tried to do?

Which ones?

Which Quarians you mean?

The vast majority of them. Those that gave the orders. Those that followed them. Those that bore arms. Those that produced arms. Those that produced food to be eaten by those that bore arms. Those that supported those that gave orders, followed orders, bore arms etc etc.

 

[Zhukov]

No, because they chose to flee instead. A reasonable enough course of action.

They fled because the geth had shown no signs of ceasing their extermination.

When the geth had the upper hand (very early on) they had the power to make a diplomatic settlement.

You mean the extermination that they resorted to when the Quarians showed no signs of ceasing their extermination of the Geth?

You mean the extermination that they did promptly cease once the Quarians quit the field?

...

Also, wait one second, I smell speculation.

As far as I'm aware, we don't know the exact course of the Morning War. We don't know that the Geth got the upper hand early on. We don't know what kind of state the Geth were in by the end of the war. They may have been drastically depleted as well. You're assuming that they gained the upper hand early on and then set about wiping out the poor, helpless genocidal Quarians because it makes your argument look better.

The vast majority of them. Those that gave the orders. Those that followed them. Those that bore arms. Those that produced arms. Those that produced food to be eaten by those that bore arms. Those that supported those that gave orders, followed orders, bore arms etc etc.

You support not suppression but extermination of civilians who incidentally are benefiting "the enemy".

This explains a lot.

In a war of total annihilation that you did not want or start against an enemy seeking to erase your entire species from existence?

Yeah. Unfortunate, but necessary.

Unless of course that enemy gives up and flees, apparently broken. I suppose then you can let them go.

Oh wait.

 

[NerAnima]

This thread seems to have gone from the topic of grey characters and factions, to an argument over who should have been exterminated in the Mass Effect universe. On the topic of grey characters, I would have to repeat the answer of Skyrim, since both sides have a few good points, while both have faults.

A smaller example I can think of is Summon Night: Swordcraft for the GBA. I'm not talking about the main enemy you fight, they're the usual boring military invading nation, but the people aligned with them, like Ureksa, who is only aligned with them because the guardian spirit of your city, Parista, afflicted his only living relative, his sister, with an illness. He hates the Deiglyans (the military invading nation), but for him, they are a necessary evil.

While I'm here, may as well throw my two cents into this Geth vs. Quarian debacle; both have reasons behind their actions, does that make it right? Certainly not, but to demonize either side is to forget the crimes they have committed, or would have committed. The Geth aren't in the right, even if they left 1% alive, but the Quarians were also dedicated to wiping the Geth out entirely, so they are far from blameless.