Games Workshop Stock Plummets By 24 Percent

[Geo Da Sponge]

And yeah, stop screwing with Sororitas, you jerks :/ That was the one 40k group I liked playing. And it's apparently the one army GW utterly despises, for some reason.

Oh yeah...finally they get a codex...only it's one of those online things.

And they don't have any plastic models apart from vehicles, you have to get them in blister packs. So they are 140 AUD dollars for 10 of them.

You used to be able to get them in boxed sets much cheaper.

And let's not even get started on Matt Ward (may his name be cursed for all eternity). In fact, let me just quote word for word from an interview with him from White Dwarf [footnote]It's on page 24 of edition 376, talking about the then new Grey Knights codex. I know it seems really weird that I have this to hand, but it really stuck with me.[/footnote].

"By the same token, if slaying their Battle Sister allies provides the pure blood needed to enact a banishing ritual against Warp-spawn, then a Justicar may well order it."

Putting aside the Grey Knights' pragmatism for a moment (Mat spoke with a little too much relish when extolling that previous example), let's focus on their tabletop presence.

That's completely unedited. Games Workshop's own official magazine acknowledges that Matt Ward's a creepy little fuck. And Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for a banishing ritual actually got put into the codex as fluff, despite how it didn't make any sense.

EDIT: Welp, this thread has now made me find out about the Space Marine Centurions, and OH GOD I CAN'T HANDLE THIS SHIT ANYMORE

 

[Baresark]

Holy shit, I was going to say this exact thing. I recently got into it with some friends and I'm still angry about the situation. I bought two kits (Space Wolves Battle Force and Battle Pack) and dropped $125 on them which didn't net me a 500 point army.

I hope I don't sound too much like a dick here, but how do you not have 500 points? The battleforce alone can make 585 or so. 5 Scouts with combat weapons, meltabombs and power weapon (115), Drop Pod (35), 9 Grey Hunters with Plasma Gun (145), 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasma Guns (160) and a Rune/Wolf Priest with Rune Armour and Wolf Tooth Necklace (130). Although a better option is taking at least 3 squads of Hunters so you can add Wolf Guard squad leader to them (which you have to take as Elites).

I wasn't familiar with it at the time, but then you have to spend hours and hours gluing and assembling them, then you are supposed to paint it. It just makes me angry as I think about it. Not only are they charging entirely too much for little pieces of plastic that require lots of work, but they put up this huge time barrier for the game on top of that. Can they make it any harder to play their damn game?

You do realise that the modelling and painting are as much aspects of the hobby as playing games? I've known peopel that barely played, but they enjoyed the painting, and people that couldn't paint, but still enjoyed playing the games It can indeed be annoying top paint the models sometimes (my least favourite of the three), but it helps makes your collection unique, my Space Wolf army feels far more 'mine' because I've modelled and painted it myself, rather than buying pre-painted minis.

No, you don't sound like a dick. I knew my comments would draw in some of the fans. I understand that building and painting are part of it. And when I was young and penny-less, I would have have loved that. But today, I think it's just strange how they throw up all these roadblocks in just playing the game. I wanted to get into it because that is the go-to for everyone when it comes to miniature games. For me, I would just rather play the game with friends without all of the roadblocks than have to spend copious amounts of money and time just to be able to play with my friends.

Also, thanks for the info on the points. I was reading over the rules and point values and all of that and I was clearly very wrong. I was just reading guides online and they are like, "for an intro army you should get 20 Grey Hunters with assorted weapons (including 3 Melta guns which these two sets don't come with), a Rune Priest, and 2 Rhino Transports."
In order to get 20 Grey Hunters you need to buy multiple sets like I did, and the Battleforce came with a Drop Pod which is a fine stand in for a Rhino Transport and as I understand it, of equal points. It was described to me that the layout described was 580 point, but clearly required me to buy more Melta guns, a Rhino Transport, and a Rune Priest.

I mean, anyone would have to agree that we are talking a substantial monetary and time investment, even if you aren't going to paint them. For me, I just want to get together with my friends and have some battles and a good time. But the roadblocks are ridiculous to just get to that point.

 

[Eamar]

As others have said, it's all about the ridiculous prices. I have about half of a Dark Eldar army that I started a few years ago and always meant to add to, but... hell no. I can get far more (vastly superior) Warmachine figures for the money, and that always wins out for me. When I do play 40k I substitute figures from other games to make up the numbers (obviously I'll never be able to play in a GW store ).

Damnit Games Workshop, I want to be really into your game. I really want to buy all of your LOTR/Hobbit figures. But even I can't justify the price, and I'm notoriously happy-go-lucky with my cash.

When I was growing up I knew a fair few kids who played GW games (I didn't get into wargaming until later). Can't imagine that any of them would have been able to afford it now...

 

[Therumancer]

Games Workshop's big problem is not dealing with their IPs well, they don't take very good care of their RPG lines when they release them, make some fairly horrible choices when it comes to video games, and despite enduring interest take a power axe to things like Necromunda almost entirely when that's one of the properties that could be most easily translated into other mediums besides minatures combat.

Then of course Games Workshop demands a premium for whatever they are selling, despite the fact that they have a lot of competition when it comes to the quality of figures and models and such. Not to mention that with 3D printing technology we've gotten to the point where people will inevitably just start making their own plans for figures given these prices (no matter what GW tries to do) and that's going to murder them. Their IPs will doubtlessly survive of course, after all the text portion for rules can become PDFs and the figures 3D models, so at the end of the day the Emperor shall prevail and the fans will still always have what they want... Warhammer being truly immortal, despite the fact that I'd vastly prefer GW stay in business and keep doing things with their IPs.


For the most part I'd say GW needs to slash their prices on all aspects of the games while retaining the high quality. This means less profits of course, but the market is changing, and it's still more than capable of supporting a company. If GW itself switches more towards plastic and starts 3D printing themselves (a professional job will likely always outdo an amateur one) they could become quite competitive.

GW should also start working more towards bringing their universe, and other aspects of it, to other mediums and taking better care of them. RPGs are one area they could shine, but again it's a niche market (increasingly niche) and one where they simply have to realize that prohibitive costs have been hurting it. To date few RPG companies really "get" that they would do best to convert to an E-reader format with solid search functions, and then charge a far smaller price (right now most RPG books still cost a premium in E-format, and are infamous for being huge with horrendous ability to rapidly search them for references and such). They also might want to consider investing in some better computer programs, like taking some of their MMO ideas and changing them over for single player, imagine for example "Dragon Age" where you play as say an Inquisitor investingating an interstellar cult or whatever, you travel from planet to planet (each with a couple of regions) collect companions, and fight evil in the 40k universe. Sort of like "Knights Of The Old Republic". Of course GW doesn't seem to think that way... and one odd fact is that "Warcraft" actually started as an official "Warhammer" video game but in development GW told them 'no' but gave them permission to keep developing. Now Warcraft eclipses GW (maintaining a similar aestetic in some respects), something which could have been avoided if GW had just a little more foresight in moving into other arenas. I've actually been surprised we haven't seen a mass suicide of GW executives over this, since it must be hard to deal with missing the train that badly. >

 

[Sixcess]

Oh well, perhaps they'll find enough people to buy their seven grand worth of Space Marines, and that'll put them back on the upswing.

As everyone else has said, they're grotesquely overpriced - that 7K blob of uninteresting repetitive plastic was just the capstone.

And if the rumour that someone linked to... that Finecast is being dropped... I can only say good. It sucked. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned but I liked the heft of metal, and those insubstantial resin pieces quite literally felt overpriced, even when they weren't flawed.

 

[Mangod]

And let's not even get started on Matt Ward (may his name be cursed for all eternity). In fact, let me just quote word for word from an interview with him from White Dwarf [footnote]It's on page 24 of edition 376, talking about the then new Grey Knights codex. I know it seems really weird that I have this to hand, but it really stuck with me.[/footnote].

"By the same token, if slaying their Battle Sister allies provides the pure blood needed to enact a banishing ritual against Warp-spawn, then a Justicar may well order it."

Putting aside the Grey Knights' pragmatism for a moment (Mat spoke with a little too much relish when extolling that previous example), let's focus on their tabletop presence.

That's completely unedited. Games Workshop's own official magazine acknowledges that Matt Ward's a creepy little fuck. And Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for a banishing ritual actually got put into the codex as fluff, despite how it didn't make any sense.

EDIT: Welp, this thread has now made me find out about the Space Marine Centurions, and OH GOD I CAN'T HANDLE THIS SHIT ANYMORE

Would you say the Centurions are better or worse than the Dreadknight?

And yes, Matt Ward is a terrible fluff-author who should be slapped to death with a hardcover copy of the 6th edition rulebook.

Actually, if they post that on youtube they'd probably get the worlds biggest salespike...

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Would you say the Centurions are better or worse than the Dreadknight?

They're both horrible models really...but at least the Centurion looks comedically adorable.

The Dreadknight by comparison looks like a Baby Carrier from a 90's Image Comic X3

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Another problem is that the company isn't doing much to gain new customers, and is only losing the old ones.

You need to attract new, younger customers constantly. Appealing only to some really hard core people will get you more money in the short term, but unless you keep expanding your customer base, you will find your original fan will slowly get bored, run out of cash, or just die.

Look at what happened to the comic book industry.

 

[Mangod]

Would you say the Centurions are better or worse than the Dreadknight?

They're both horrible models really...but at least the Centurion looks comedically adorable.

The Dreadknight by comparison looks like a Baby Carrier from a 90's Image Comic X3

LIIIEFEEELD!!!

Come to think of it, most characters penned by Matt Ward do act like they're straight out of Youngblood... *crying*

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

That's completely unedited. Games Workshop's own official magazine acknowledges that Matt Ward's a creepy little fuck. And Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle for a banishing ritual actually got put into the codex as fluff, despite how it didn't make any sense.

EDIT: Welp, this thread has now made me find out about the Space Marine Centurions, and OH GOD I CAN'T HANDLE THIS SHIT ANYMORE

Would you say the Centurions are better or worse than the Dreadknight?

And yes, Matt Ward is a terrible fluff-author who should be slapped to death with a hardcover copy of the 6th edition rulebook.

Actually, if they post that on youtube they'd probably get the worlds biggest salespike...

"Hey guys, let's waste some of our very limited prewar tech that we have increasingly are running out of to make a Titan that can only piloted by our very uncommon super soldiers, and have them out in the open, so one well aimed anti-tank round (or a good sniper round if they don't have a helmet, which half of them don't) could take it out."

What is the logic behind that thing? Even the machine worshipers have to know how to make things like a "cockpit" and "no giant weakness."

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Would you say the Centurions are better or worse than the Dreadknight?

They're both horrible models really...but at least the Centurion looks comedically adorable.

The Dreadknight by comparison looks like a Baby Carrier from a 90's Image Comic X3

LIIIEFEEELD!!!

Come to think of it, most characters penned by Matt Ward do act like they're straight out of Youngblood... *crying*

Well, Draigo probably does have Youngblood's Disease X3

"Hey guys, let's waste some of our very limited prewar tech that we have increasingly are running out of to make a Titan that can only piloted by our very uncommon super soldiers, and have them out in the open, so one well aimed anti-tank round (or a good sniper round if they don't have a helmet, which half of them don't) could take it out."

What is the logic behind that thing? Even the machine worshipers have to know how to make things like a "cockpit" and "no giant weakness."

The weird thing? The Adeptus Mechanus actually has something like the Dreadknight - the Knight Households, which were essentially smaller, easier to produce (mass production if you like) titans. And yet Knight Households are sensibly designed (by the standards of 40K) and entirely practical, with no glaring weaknesses.

And are roughly about the size (if not slightly taller) of a Dreadknight/Riptide/Wraithknight X3

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

As others have said, it's all about the ridiculous prices. I have about half of a Dark Eldar army that I started a few years ago and always meant to add to, but... hell no. I can get far more (vastly superior) Warmachine figures for the money, and that always wins out for me. When I do play 40k I substitute figures from other games to make up the numbers (obviously I'll never be able to play in a GW store ).

Damnit Games Workshop, I want to be really into your game. I really want to buy all of your LOTR/Hobbit figures. But even I can't justify the price, and I'm notoriously happy-go-lucky with my cash.

When I was growing up I knew a fair few kids who played GW games (I didn't get into wargaming until later). Can't imagine that any of them would have been able to afford it now...

Hmm, I know you're a massive tolkien fan (god that sounds creepy so sorry) but just out of interest, how much would you consider paying for those figurines? Because people like you are a benchmark of why GW aren't the brightest cookies in the box, they're failing to attract new interest with such a diverse and interesting IP, where they could get SO many more people involved if the cost of a starter set wasn't astronomically high, or even bothered to give reason or rhyme to their actions and improve their (abysmal) public relations.
(Also Yay! on having a Dark Eldar, they're pretty much old school Celtic elves with the addition of jetbikes and drugs)

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

My other recommendation (for 40K Guard Players at least) would be Pig Iron Productions, provided you can put up with the price of white metal these days and have a fair amount of superglue and 25-28mm Bases. There are also a crapton of Kickstarter projects you can use models from.

Also, it says a lot that while Privateer Press models are indeed more expensive, you can get a decent sized army for Hordes or Warmachine for less than £150. They also use the more expensive white metal still on their models, in addition to resin (and some like the Colossals are resin/metal combo kits).

Maxmini do some good guard stuff too. They make pose-able resin parts (torso, legs, arms in 2 different styles and loads of different heads and a few weapon types, plus accessories that are very much "not quite Stormtroopers/meltaguns/Steel Legion etc". Admittedly a rather expensive way of making up alternate IG but you can make up a lot of different styles.

You can get a vaguely decent sized army for that from GW.

Technically 1 marine captain and 10 marines is a legal army. 280 points. £25 for the marines, £15 for the captain, £30 for the rules, £35 for the marine Codex.That leaves £45 for a devastator and assault squad, that's 470 points without any upgrades.

If you want to go Guard then an unit HQ is about £10[edit: £15, oops], platoon comm section for £15, 20 guardsmen for £36, Rules and codex for £50, £24 Heavy weapons section and then maybe a squad of 5 stormtroopers for £12. That's about 345 points.

In terms of number of models that's not a big difference to Warmachine, you can play a game with those no problem, it's just that all the fancy shiny shiny stuff is more expensive. Small starter games are fine, it's once you start to expand into larger points values and suddenly your opponent can add the latest £50 super mega doom weapon that things start to get shitty.

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Maxmini do some good guard stuff too. They make pose-able resin parts (torso, legs, arms in 2 different styles and loads of different heads and a few weapon types, plus accessories that are very much "not quite Stormtroopers/meltaguns/Steel Legion etc". Admittedly a rather expensive way of making up alternate IG but you can make up a lot of different styles.

You can get a vaguely decent sized army for that from GW.

Technically 1 marine captain and 10 marines is a legal army. 280 points. £25 for the marines, £15 for the captain, £30 for the rules, £35 for the marine Codex.That leaves £45 for a devastator and assault squad, that's 470 points without any upgrades.

If you want to go Guard then an unit HQ is about £10, platoon comm section for £15, 20 guardsmen for £36, Rules and codex for £50, £24 Heavy weapons section and then maybe a squad of 5 stormtroopers for £12. That's about 345 points.

In terms of number of models that's not a big difference to Warmachine, you can play a game with those no problem, it's just that all the fancy shiny shiny stuff is more expensive. Small starter games are fine, it's once you start to expand into larger points values and suddenly your opponent can add the latest £50 super mega doom weapon that things start to get shitty.

I'll have to look. Can't say I've heard of them before now. All we need fear is if my FLGS can stock them and the dreaded Shipping Costs.

 

[Atmos Duality]

That's a sound assumption. Then again, maybe 3D printing will cause Games Workshop to lower the prices of their miniatures to reasonable levels, which might cause them to gain new customers and expand the franchise. It will always be cheaper for a specialized company to create miniatures than for a home user with expensive 3D printer and materials.

Well, yes. The laws of production and line-costs ensure Games Workshop a potential place in the world, but their highly monopolistic agenda and years of financial success lead me to believe they will not survive when confronted with new market forces. Specifically those whom they cannot just sue out of existence.

Companies like theirs do not behave like those who are used to competition. Everything I've seen based on their business practices and behavior tell me that they think anti-competitively rather than competitively. They try to change the market to suit their needs rather than changing their offering to suit the market.

I won't lie; part of me wants to see Games Workshop collapse entirely rather than recover, even for the "right reasons".

Partly to open up the miniatures market further so that I can finally get in on that. (I've actually designed tabletop game systems as a hobby, using LEGOs as placeholders. Actual miniatures would work much better. So 3D printers might be in my future)
Partly to end their insane, almost terrifying legal inquisition against the world.
But mostly to set an example.

For years, I have specifically avoided Warhammer on account of the asking cost alone. That's just market neutrality talking.

But then there's the company behind the brand: Games Workshop. I am not kidding when I say that everything new that I learn or hear about Games Workshop is bad, and usually a case of "bad to worse". Like an upgrade patch of bad that enhances the previous levels of bad.

And I'm not just getting this from the Internet Hate Machine either; Store owners, hobbysts at conventions, my friends, even random folks at college; everyone who has dealt with GW in the last decade has almost nothing nice to say about them as a business.

They really just seem like the worst kind of company to have around, let alone succeed, and even if they do turn their financial ship around, they don't seem the sort to learn from their mistakes.

 

[Chaos Marine]

Oh well, expect their products to skyrocket in price then. Every time they start losing money they jack up the prices. Common sense would tell them to make stuff cheaper to stimulate sales but nope, GW are a law into their own stupidity. Great writers though. Love the books.

 

[Mangod]

Hmm, I know you're a massive tolkien fan (god that sounds creepy so sorry) but just out of interest, how much would you consider paying for those figurines? Because people like you are a benchmark of why GW aren't the brightest cookies in the box, they're failing to attract new interest with such a diverse and interesting IP, where they could get SO many more people involved if the cost of a starter set wasn't astronomically high, or even bothered to give reason or rhyme to their actions and improve their (abysmal) public relations.
(Also Yay! on having a Dark Eldar, they're pretty much old school Celtic elves with the addition of jetbikes and drugs)

These two items are the things that drew me to Privateer Press and Warmahordes, actually. Their games, while not necessarily cheaper in the long term, are considerably cheaper to get into, and they actually maintain a legit forum where people can discuss their product and air their greivances with decisions, ask questions about the fluff, etc, etc.

Games Workshop, meanwhile, charge more and more money for less and less models, while also decreasing the number of points a single unit/model is worth, so you need more and more to reach viable tournament levels.

And, personal gripe; they force you to buy certain amounts of unis of a certain type to make your army legal at all: 25% of your army must be Troop Choice units, for example Guardsmen. The same Guardsmen that are sold at 10 models for $29 a box. How many points is a Guardsman? 10? 9? Less? At tournament levels, 2000 points or so, you need to buy at least 50 of these guys, so that's $145 for the basics of a tournament army. And then you need the HQ general on top of that...

 

[Eamar]

Hmm, I know you're a massive tolkien fan (god that sounds creepy so sorry) but just out of interest, how much would you consider paying for those figurines? Because people like you are a benchmark of why GW aren't the brightest cookies in the box, they're failing to attract new interest with such a diverse and interesting IP, where they could get SO many more people involved if the cost of a starter set wasn't astronomically high, or even bothered to give reason or rhyme to their actions and improve their (abysmal) public relations.
(Also Yay! on having a Dark Eldar, they're pretty much old school Celtic elves with the addition of jetbikes and drugs)

Hehe it's cool, I mention Tolkien a hell of a lot on here

Hmmm, good question. Depending on the figure, I suppose I might consider the asking price... if I didn't have to do the assembling and painting, seeing as how I'd be buying them purely as figurines. As it is, you're paying through the nose for the privilege of doing a hell of a lot of work, and it's not even like they're particularly big or anything.

(and yeah, Dark Eldar are pretty badass. Sick and twisted, but badass )

 

[Megalodon]

No, you don't sound like a dick. I knew my comments would draw in some of the fans. I understand that building and painting are part of it. And when I was young and penny-less, I would have have loved that. But today, I think it's just strange how they throw up all these roadblocks in just playing the game. I wanted to get into it because that is the go-to for everyone when it comes to miniature games. For me, I would just rather play the game with friends without all of the roadblocks than have to spend copious amounts of money and time just to be able to play with my friends.

Also, thanks for the info on the points. I was reading over the rules and point values and all of that and I was clearly very wrong. I was just reading guides online and they are like, "for an intro army you should get 20 Grey Hunters with assorted weapons (including 3 Melta guns which these two sets don't come with), a Rune Priest, and 2 Rhino Transports."
In order to get 20 Grey Hunters you need to buy multiple sets like I did, and the Battleforce came with a Drop Pod which is a fine stand in for a Rhino Transport and as I understand it, of equal points. It was described to me that the layout described was 580 point, but clearly required me to buy more Melta guns, a Rhino Transport, and a Rune Priest.

You don't need to buy a separate Rune Priest, you get enough bits on the pack sprue to knock one together, plus if you're putting squads in Pods/Rhinos they can only carry 10, so you have to make one squad 9 strong, or your Priest has to walk (so there's a spare body from the 20 in the battleforce). Melta vs plasma is an enduring dispute, but really there's nothing wrong with plasma guns, especially at low points where the big vehicles aren't likely to show up. So really you just need a Rhino. The Pod isn't ideal tbh, I'd much rather have a Rhino in that set. The other thing worth considering, is that vehicles have taken a serious nerf this edition, so running pure infantry isn't a terrible idea, especially with Wolves.

I mean, anyone would have to agree that we are talking a substantial monetary and time investment, even if you aren't going to paint them. For me, I just want to get together with my friends and have some battles and a good time. But the roadblocks are ridiculous to just get to that point.

Eh, the costs of the hobby overall are still less than getting into PC/console gaming from scratch. I personally really enjoy the model assembly aspect of the hobby. But I can't tell you that you're wrong if you find the modelling aspect/cost a roadblock.

 

[Megalodon]

And, personal gripe; they force you to buy certain amounts of unis of a certain type to make your army legal at all: 25% of your army must be Troop Choice units, for example Guardsmen. The same Guardsmen that are sold at 10 models for $29 a box. How many points is a Guardsman? 10? 9? Less? At tournament levels, 2000 points or so, you need to buy at least 50 of these guys, so that's $145 for the basics of a tournament army. And then you need the HQ general on top of that...

You're getting your systems crossed here. Only Fantasy currently has % points that must/can be spent on specific areas. 40k is still using the Force Organisation chart, where you need 1 HQ and 2 Troops to be legal in normal games. For a barebone minimum guard set up you only need 2 boxes of guardsmen (to use as veterans) and a command squad. Which comes in at £51:50 ($84.50). A 1500 point (the standard tournament army size) mechanised Guard army (which are among the most expensive armies to collect), will set you back around £300 ($492) to £340 ($558). Which is cheaper than next gen console atm (PS4 £349, Xbone £429).

Not saying the hobby is cheap, but it's not really any worse than many other hobbies people indulge in.