"Gaymers" Speak Out On Homophobia
- Thread starter Nathan Meunier
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Like Orekoya, I had to register to add my two cents.
The popular argument here seems to be that gay people should just keep their sexuality to themselves or no one could be to blame for using derogatory terms and hate speech against them.
Really? Really?
If we are to follow that logic and apply it to real life, then shouldn't all gay people be told to remain hidden 'in the closet' or else face hate crimes that they brought upon themselves?
Whether or not anyone here, in the videogame community, or in society in general, has an issue with gay people isn't really the point. The point is that using hateful speech is using hateful speech. It is not and will not be okay simply because of its prevalence among the ignorant gaming community.
I use to be friends with a couple people who, though they never made homosexual insults (on Halo, fittingly), used all sorts of racial insults which are also quite popular these days. Just about any variation on the 'n' word that you can think of. They never tried to pull the BS 'but I'm not really racist' argument, and I can just hear them saying, "Well, if you don't want to be called a n_____ then don't let people know you're black." It's ridiculous.
In all my years in the online gaming community I've heard so many countless homophobic insults thrown around...yet I can probably count on two hands the number of times that anyone actually shared that they were homosexual. I can't recall any time hearing someone share that they were gay without someone making a homophobic comment.
This isn't that hard, folks. Hate speech is hate speech. Grow up.
The popular argument here seems to be that gay people should just keep their sexuality to themselves or no one could be to blame for using derogatory terms and hate speech against them.
Really? Really?
If we are to follow that logic and apply it to real life, then shouldn't all gay people be told to remain hidden 'in the closet' or else face hate crimes that they brought upon themselves?
Whether or not anyone here, in the videogame community, or in society in general, has an issue with gay people isn't really the point. The point is that using hateful speech is using hateful speech. It is not and will not be okay simply because of its prevalence among the ignorant gaming community.
I use to be friends with a couple people who, though they never made homosexual insults (on Halo, fittingly), used all sorts of racial insults which are also quite popular these days. Just about any variation on the 'n' word that you can think of. They never tried to pull the BS 'but I'm not really racist' argument, and I can just hear them saying, "Well, if you don't want to be called a n_____ then don't let people know you're black." It's ridiculous.
In all my years in the online gaming community I've heard so many countless homophobic insults thrown around...yet I can probably count on two hands the number of times that anyone actually shared that they were homosexual. I can't recall any time hearing someone share that they were gay without someone making a homophobic comment.
This isn't that hard, folks. Hate speech is hate speech. Grow up.
I WISH people were more tolerant, and would keep their hate to themselves or other likeminded fools. But the grim reality is that until you can start holding people accountable for what they say and do in an online game, they're are going to be foul-mouthed ignoramuses spewing their hate speech all over the place.
In the US, that bile is all protected speech under the First Amendment. The only speech that isn't protected is that which would incite a public disruption, e.g., riot, crime, etc. This of course, is a very remedial explanation of a number of Supreme Court Cases, and deciding what counts as inciting a public disruption is the domain of the SCOTUS, not me.
Per Chrinik it's absolutely in everyone's best interest to ignore the idiots. Calling yourself out as being gay isn't "asking" for more ridicule, but it there's no question that it makes it more likely. I can liken it, to a certain extent to the rape victim. Let me be clear, I do not believe that anyone is ever "asking" to be raped. No one "wants" that. Are there VOLUNTARY actions that make your chances of being raped go up? Yes. Are there things over which some people have no control that also increase those chances? Again, yes. But you're never "inviting" that, just like you're never "inviting" vapid and ignorant slurs because of your sexual orientation or race.
It's an unfortunate symptom of the "Internet Dickwad Theory," also mentioned above. Until server admins start banning people for hate speech, people have no motivation to behave themselves online. On a plus note, I've found plenty of CoD4:MW (PC) servers that have a no tolerance policy for even swearing.
There are places in the online gaming realm that don't tolerate that kind of crap - they're hard to find but they are out there.
In the US, that bile is all protected speech under the First Amendment. The only speech that isn't protected is that which would incite a public disruption, e.g., riot, crime, etc. This of course, is a very remedial explanation of a number of Supreme Court Cases, and deciding what counts as inciting a public disruption is the domain of the SCOTUS, not me.
Per Chrinik it's absolutely in everyone's best interest to ignore the idiots. Calling yourself out as being gay isn't "asking" for more ridicule, but it there's no question that it makes it more likely. I can liken it, to a certain extent to the rape victim. Let me be clear, I do not believe that anyone is ever "asking" to be raped. No one "wants" that. Are there VOLUNTARY actions that make your chances of being raped go up? Yes. Are there things over which some people have no control that also increase those chances? Again, yes. But you're never "inviting" that, just like you're never "inviting" vapid and ignorant slurs because of your sexual orientation or race.
It's an unfortunate symptom of the "Internet Dickwad Theory," also mentioned above. Until server admins start banning people for hate speech, people have no motivation to behave themselves online. On a plus note, I've found plenty of CoD4:MW (PC) servers that have a no tolerance policy for even swearing.
There are places in the online gaming realm that don't tolerate that kind of crap - they're hard to find but they are out there.
Have to agree with you there, and I agree that gay people shouldn't have to stay in the closet their whole lives, that's ridiculous. But that's also not what Khell and Root (Sorry, too lazy to type out full names) are talking about. What they are saying is that, just as with anything else, there is a time and a place for stating your sexual preference. A public online game is not one of them.itsonlycapital post=7.72320.756867 said:
To put this in perspective, think of this. On openly gay man runs into the middle of a crowded shopping mall, climbs on top of the fountain and yells loud enough for everyone to hear "I'm Gay!". Sounds like a pretty stupid thing to do doesn't it? Well that's the same damn thing as doing it on a video game. The only difference being that on a video game he couldn't be physically hurt, whereas in a mall he could be shot, stabbed, beaten or otherwise injured/killed.
Congrats on being equally disdainful of PDA. You're willfully ignoring the point that for however unlovely and unlilting it is to listen to, straight people don't have to worry about catching all hell for expressing it. If I were to yammer about my girlfriend online, I'd get either "Shut up" from those that don't care and "D00d, wat'z teh secks liek?" from the virgins and meatheads. Say anything about my boyfriend, though, however tame and however relevant or irrelevant to the chatter at hand, and it's unanimous "bash the fag".The_root_of_all_evil post=7.72320.756688 said:
Jobz post=18.72320.756912 said:Name-ist!itsonlycapital post=7.72320.756867 said:
But yeah, I hate Russel Brand and Madonna for similar reasons. If anyone references my Mum and Dad having sex to make me, I'd feel really quite ill.
Riiiiight. Sure. Did you read my post about the time I was almost gay-bashed? It was only a few posts back.Texian post=18.72320.756914 said:
Counterpoint : Has any of these horrible hetero's here tried to bash you?
There are morons out there who will bash you for being different. That's fact. It really doesn't matter HOW you are different, so bringing more attention to your difference will cause more problems with the morons.
So...snuggle up with your boyfriend all you want...but if you're going to a place where you KNOW there will be morons, keep it under your hat whilst around them. It's safer that way. Same goes for having long hair, quoting Python, reading books or anything else they might deem as 'abnormal'.
At least you have the option of hiding it, mentally/physically disadvantaged people don't even have that; and they get as much hate.
Again, going to have to once again point to back to the "had your heart in the right place" that I had said in my last argument. This isn't an inquisition, we aren't accusing them of it or trying to prove they are. We are simply stating that there is a problem there. Also, have you played online games with others? People's personal lives spill out over them all the time, most get away with very little hassle or even notice; even for the nastiest things that might be said, and others get hammered on and abused endlessly for the most insignificant things that could cross the lines of communication. And that's what's happening in the real world too. That's the prejudice people are banging the drums over. That's the problem.Jobz post=7.72320.756912 said:
You know, for a long time I thought that I was homophobic. This somewhat upset me because I don't like to think of myself as a bigoted person.
Then, one day, I had an epiphany. I hate all people equally who make their sexuality my business for no reason at all, when I have neither asked, nor particularly want to hear about it.
It just so happens, in my experience, that homosexuals are more likely to do this than heterosexuals. Now here's the kicker: for all I know, there's tons of gay people out there who I really don't mind. Know why? Because neither of us has ever discussed sex with the other, nor will we ever, BECAUSE IT HAS NO PLACE IN POLITE CONVERSATION.
Now for those who insist on the self-branding at every available opportunity (This goes for vocal homosexuals and self-affirming heterosexual frat boy types alike), here's a bit of advice: I don't walk around all the time saying "You know what I like? Having sex with women. I enjoy that quite a bit." Because I'm comfortable with my sexuality. It'd be like walking around saying "I really like how green the grass is, and how blue the sky is today." and saying that every day. When you know something to be true deep down inside, you have no need to tell anyone, because it's stating the obvious. Learn to accept yourself, keep your private business private, and maybe you'll discover like me, that the problem all along hasn't been with you, it's been with you being unable to shut the hell up.
Back to the main topic.
Here's another secret: life isn't always a zero-sum game. It's not always going to be "us versus them." Some people out there are never going to like you, and that's fine, the great thing about being an adult is we don't all have to like each other. The unfortunate thing being: you still have to get by without bashing your enemies heads in with a rock. Weathering the slings and barbs of your enemies is all part of growing up. What, realistically, could the XBox Live service do about this situation? Record all voice chat in all games to review for hate speech? What about all of the protected speech they'd be monitoring as well? There's no viable solution. Pick a battle that isn't hopeless.
Then, one day, I had an epiphany. I hate all people equally who make their sexuality my business for no reason at all, when I have neither asked, nor particularly want to hear about it.
It just so happens, in my experience, that homosexuals are more likely to do this than heterosexuals. Now here's the kicker: for all I know, there's tons of gay people out there who I really don't mind. Know why? Because neither of us has ever discussed sex with the other, nor will we ever, BECAUSE IT HAS NO PLACE IN POLITE CONVERSATION.
Now for those who insist on the self-branding at every available opportunity (This goes for vocal homosexuals and self-affirming heterosexual frat boy types alike), here's a bit of advice: I don't walk around all the time saying "You know what I like? Having sex with women. I enjoy that quite a bit." Because I'm comfortable with my sexuality. It'd be like walking around saying "I really like how green the grass is, and how blue the sky is today." and saying that every day. When you know something to be true deep down inside, you have no need to tell anyone, because it's stating the obvious. Learn to accept yourself, keep your private business private, and maybe you'll discover like me, that the problem all along hasn't been with you, it's been with you being unable to shut the hell up.
Back to the main topic.
Here's another secret: life isn't always a zero-sum game. It's not always going to be "us versus them." Some people out there are never going to like you, and that's fine, the great thing about being an adult is we don't all have to like each other. The unfortunate thing being: you still have to get by without bashing your enemies heads in with a rock. Weathering the slings and barbs of your enemies is all part of growing up. What, realistically, could the XBox Live service do about this situation? Record all voice chat in all games to review for hate speech? What about all of the protected speech they'd be monitoring as well? There's no viable solution. Pick a battle that isn't hopeless.
Ugh. I say when you're playing games, you're a gamer. Not a Male, Female, or Homosexual. If the Homophobes offend you, just don't listen to them.
Yes, I have played online games with others, I used to do so quite a lot when I had time which is now taken over by school and work. When I played my personal life never spilled out, the most anyone ever found out about me was where I was from which is fairly obvious because of my accent and maybe how old I was if someone asked.Orekoya post=7.72320.756996 said:
Aside from that I see absolutely no reason to share deeply personal information with anyone you meet online in a place you know there are going to be ignorant people who will torment you for it. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I don't talk about my heritage, sexual preference, race, political views, or religion in online games, chat rooms or forums with less-than-intelligent users (The Escapist being the only forum with intelligent users I have yet come across).
If it's something you know you will be tormented for, why not save yourself some trouble and just keep it to yourself?
EDIT: Wow, that tiny typo made an entire sentence have an ENTIRELY different meaning.
Oh, I agree that there are more and less tactful ways to handle the situation, especially in situations where there's a higher potential for hateful reaction. Like I kinda said, though, I have never seen anyone just hop onto a game server and shout, "Hey everyone, I'm gay!" I could be wrong, but I really can't imagine that this happens often, if ever.Jobz post=7.72320.756912 said:
My main point, though, despite all the arguments people will make to blame the victim, is that being made aware of someone's sexuality is not an excuse to say the kinds of things constantly being tossed around online.
I have not, and will never, say that knowing someone is gay is an excuse to say the disgusting types of things I have heard said about them. All I am saying is that easiest way to avoid hearing these things is to simply not mention your sexual preference. It's not a necessary thing to mention during a video game.itsonlycapital post=7.72320.757073 said:
EDIT: Removed quote wall.
Hm, pointing out how even remotely small it may be some parts of your personal life will come across when you interact with anyone on the internet. Telling someone that "If it's something you know you will be tormented for, why not save yourself some trouble and just keep it to yourself?" doesn't work too well because it's the akin of telling someone to be unbiased and impersonal in everything they do at all times. Self-filtering 24/7 is in short an impossible task and a grave burden to force on someone when the burden is unnecessary and shouldn't have existed in the first place.Jobz post=7.72320.757064 said:
Sorry, I should have said that I didn't mean to aim that towards you, personally. Just in general...Jobz post=7.72320.757084 said:
Would you kindly give me an example of time when part of your personal life comes across in a game without you explicitly choosing for it to do so? It's not about self-filtering, it's a simple matter of deciding what is and is not appropriate in certain situations. As easy as not cursing in a professional environment.Orekoya post=7.72320.757088 said: