Gears of Mass Effect

Jezixo

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Amarok said:
Exactly, the fact that Mass Effect's multiple dialogue trees allow you to control your own character means that games finally have an edge over movies in the story-telling department. Seeing this in other games, even fast-paced action titles (note that not every game needs the extensive background and lore that ME has) would be a big boost for the medium.

/opinion stated as fact.
Agree, and agree with Shamus 100%. Playing Mass Effect 2, besides giving me the gamer equivalent of multiple orgasms, made me feel very nervous, and I'm not entirely sure why, but I think I was nervous that there might be a group of people somewhere that DIDN'T think this was where game narrativ should be going, or that DIDN'T actually like the way this game was made, and that this group might be big enough to make this just a flash in the pan as opposed to the revolutionary new stage in gaming that it should be.

Based on the sales though, I think my fears are unfounded. I really truly hope that every other game developer out there picks up on this like they picked up on GoW's cover based combat, and starts going to town on it, because as many peope have said, games finally have an edge over cinematic storytelling. We can do something they can't. And it makes all the difference.
 

Skratt

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I seriously hope that more games go the route of ME2. Maybe even a little more so. I rather detest RPGs because they are filled with spreadsheet non-sense filler crap and "mandatory but optional exploration" that keeps me from enjoying the actual game. RPGs, or Role Playing Games are where you play a role and make choices that affect the outcome of the game.

I hate getting to a point in the game storyline where I have to go "oh shit, I don't have the +5 sword of awesome demon-bane and the trinket of salamasond so this part is unbeatable and the storyline cannot progress." Then I have to go to the internet and find out that it is on the island that you can barely see on the mini-map which you only know about if you rescued Timmy from Tristram instead of using his leg to go fight the cow king mini-game. And when you get to said island, you need to level up your Treasure Finding skill first by "digging" holes in the dirt for an hour or 3.

Just let me kill the demon and keep going and skip all that extra crap. If I really want to see what happens differently should I have spent all that extra time, I'll go watch it on YouTube.
 

Arrakiv

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Talvrae said:
I just want to say: Many PnP RPG dont have level of any sort... here some that come to my mind
ShadowRun
World of Darkness games (Vampire the Mascarade, Wearewolf the Apocalypse, ect... even the new edition with Vampire the Requim still dont have levels)
Call of Cthulhu D6
Kult
Yes. This.

Heck, I pretty much hate DnD. I've played it, but I really rather dislike it. I dislike it for the over-focus on stats, and most of the groups I've played in have barely had any focus on roleplaying/story at all. Those only served as a vehicle to get us into some random dungeon to beat up Orcs or something - some groups can be better than others, but still.

I actually started out with D6, which was an awful lot lighter. I prefer Fudge the most - and I can play that and barely even pay any attention to stats, or even the system as a whole. With the lack of requirement for everyone to have crazy combat classes and such, too, it also meant groups could do more than just a lot of combat, and that people served totally different roles - and not just different combat roles.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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blue_guy said:
Its not really dumbed down, the actual gameplay is harder and more complex wheras in ME1 you just spammed all your powers in the first 2 seconds of a battle and then held down the trigger.
I actually found ME2 gameplay to be easier than ME1, due largely 2's responses times with respec to cover, weapon/biotic targeting and slower moving enemies.
 

Weaver

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Apr 28, 2008
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I'd rather bioware didn't do it with a series that started OUT as an RPG. And it's not even the fact that they changed their IP, it's the fact that we spend all of mass effect building our perfect character then mass effect 2 comes out and they even let us import the damn character... but for what? The RPG more or less gone.

I still disagree with your conclusion. RPGs should not all be simplified to just "bang bang i shoot you" BUT have a good story, and not all action games should involve deep dialogue trees. Imagine if bayonetta had a 50 minute dialogue sequence where you walked around a town - it just doesn't work.
 

Tommy_Dizzle

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Apr 7, 2008
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I dont really mind the levelling system of RPGs like Jade Empire or ME2. The first game I played with this 'Skill over Sytem' style was Fable, and that was always great. Dont get me wrong, I love high detail RPGs like Dragon Age, Dragon Quest, or anything else with 'dragon' in the name, but this style of game is defenitely a favourite of mine.
I dont, however, like the fact that ME2 has a different RPG style to ME1. It felt a bit disconnected from it's predecessor, so probably not a great idea to do this mid-series.
 

Jenova65

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ME2's levelling system is to Mass Effect what a raisin is to a grape. A sun dried wizened version of it's former self. Sure there is a lot of 'stuff', in ME and lots of levelling and point distribution but it was still a brilliant game and many people enjoy stat building and item sifting, tbh!
I still love the game and can see the point, my concern is not whether ME can influence Gears and Halo, more that they have already influenced ME in terms of stripping away the details that RPG'ers enjoy.
 

mooseodeath

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Jan 26, 2010
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which is fine but they could have tried the new idea with some other franchise. instead this is more akin to ferrari's next big thing being a cheaply built 2cylinder city run about.

they took all the features bioware gamers want, and replaced them with what the masses wanted. hard to not feel cheated. especially mid series. it would be like doom 4 being an wow clone, since that is way more popular than fps on pc is
 

Jezixo

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Reading this thread makes me wonder how Bioware, or any games company, ever decide what to do. You can never just give the people what they want, because what everyone wants is different from what everyone else wants. It's an issue, because I remember reading that, for Mass Effect 2, they scoured every single forum that had anything to say about ME1 and took all of the criticism on board, in order to improve it in ME2.

It worked in this case, but I can see how the simpler levelling has pissed a few people off. Personally I love the game like a father and hope the next one will be the same, but there will always be someone who disagrees.

I actually think the best thing for all involved is for developers to ignore what the "people" want and just do what they think is best. Although, if you do that, you're in danger of becoming Sonic Team, so perhaps it's not such a good idea.
 

Lucifron

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I'm sure that it wouldn't hurt the action-genres if this catched on, although I hate that we've lost Mass Effect to it.
 

Gunner 51

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I greet this new breed of action packed RPG with open arms. It shows that the WRPG is slowly evolving and transcending itself and turning into something else. Evolution in game format.

Shooters like MW2 are incorporating level grinding (with loot) into their multiplayer sides. So we could all be looking at a win-win situation here. So the door seems to be swinging both ways when it comes to cross-bred games.
 

Jenova65

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Jezixo said:
Reading this thread makes me wonder how Bioware, or any games company, ever decide what to do. You can never just give the people what they want, because what everyone wants is different from what everyone else wants. It's an issue, because I remember reading that, for Mass Effect 2, they scoured every single forum that had anything to say about ME1 and took all of the criticism on board, in order to improve it in ME2.

It worked in this case, but I can see how the simpler levelling has pissed a few people off. Personally I love the game like a father and hope the next one will be the same, but there will always be someone who disagrees.

I actually think the best thing for all involved is for developers to ignore what the "people" want and just do what they think is best. Although, if you do that, you're in danger of becoming Sonic Team, so perhaps it's not such a good idea.
That is because BioWare, when scouring the forums forgot to take into account that pissed off people are a lot louder than satisfied people, example - Loading screen versus elevator ride, I'm not going to go on a forum and say ''Those elevator rides, eh?! Great way to suffer loading'', because they were just a different loading system therefore not on my radar of complaints, iyswim? People who thought that the elevator was somehow ruining their game moaned about it and were therefore listened to, but hell I'm gonna make sure that I moan about the new loading screens that 'break into', my game.
For ME3 they should keep the new fighting system, I like it fine now, but give back a lot of what they took away in terms of skill trees and give a bit more customization than different shoulder pads, dammit I want my medical exoskeleton back.... ;-)
 

Jenova65

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MelasZepheos said:
I didn't like the leveling system of Mass Effect 2

I shall now clarify.

I am a big fan of tailoring your character to suit your needs, especially in RPGs, and stripping down the Mass Effect experience to make a fairly generic shooter takced on to a deep and involved storyline threw this out of the window. It didn't matter if I wanted a character who could pick locks, charm her way out of situations, decrypt complicated compute systems and hit a bullseye from 100m away. The game gave me all that ability, then told me 'All you need to do is make yourself better at fighting.'

What if don't want to be better at fighting? What if one of the things I enjoyed about Mass Effect is the feeling that I am playing it differently from a friend who loves running and gunning? It feels much more like I'm crafting my own experience when instead of just choosing whether I'm a badass shoote or a badass biotic, I'm choosing whether I'm a badass negotiator or a badass fighter.

For all the talk of crafting your own experience and character, Mass Effect actually felt so much mor linear in terms of character leveling that I felt like I was having the character made for me, along their lines, not mine. While I know this sounds odd, because it's always their character, the leveling always felt like my choice, not Bioware's.

It's still a fantastic game, but it's not quite as much my charactr as she was the last time, and that makes the story harder to connect with.
And this ^ I totally agree with you here, BioWare are famous for giving us choices such as - you can fight your way through this OR if you are smart enough to talk your way out of it, you can do that instead, and you will gain your experience that way. Telling mercs that this might be a good time to look for another job, Helena Blake is perfect example of this for those of us who chose not to fight, rather to 'suggest', a career change and who knew? She listened!
Plus that level 30 cap, well, don't get me started on my opinion of level capping in general.
 

Matu Flp Krwfe

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Mortagog said:
I'm sure that it wouldn't hurt the action-genres if this catched on, although I hate that we've lost Mass Effect to it.
ME1 was a nightmare of unintuitive menues, awkward combat, meaningless "customization" (which very nearly made the game unplayable,) horrifically repetitive set pieces, tedious and unrewarding vehicle segments, and weak plot structure. I'm glad we "lost" it.
 

Chris Sharka

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008Zulu said:
Now its shoot, hide, reload, shoot, hide, reload. No challenge.
I quite agree here. There were only 4 situations so far in Insanity which required a different point of thinking than this, which is disappointing. One of which involved camping a specific spot on the map where the 2 Scions couldn't shockwave me, one of which involved having Tali Zorah's Combat drone knock a scion off a moving platform, and strafing the forward most stairwell next to Legion in the Reaper (which for some reason the husks wouldn't use when they tried to chase me), and the final one was running to a cut scene because I couldn't deal with Geth Hunters with Shotguns on a very small map. It wouldn't have been a problem if Sheppard wouldn't jump out of cover for no reason.

While I missed the large number of skills you could have in ME, it felt as though the game punished you for having a low level character, though levels flowed like water into a barrel placed at the end of a storm drain during a monsoon, where as at level 60 with two heatsinks on your weapon of choice, you could literally walk around and shoot things and never die. This game (ME2) erased both those feelings. And I actually enjoyed the control layout a lot more on the 360 compared to the last game.

ME2 Also brought back my favorite part of the old Final Fantasy games. Flying around with your airship. I knew I couldn't hate a game that let me drive through suns, but I had to eventually notice everything I felt was a problem in the game.

All of the "Pure" classes made for a heavily gimped Sheppard. In my play experience the Soldier relied so much on his gun that he couldn't deal to opponents who wouldn't come out of cover, and while firing he would take a large amount of damage and have to hope the enemy didn't just Regen his shields health or armor. For this reason I felt him rely on inferno rounds the entire game... until he got an advanced power.

The engineer couldn't really deal with organics or armor without inferno (or armor piercing rounds) and the difference between biotic barriers and shields seemed to only affect this class. Meanwhile the Adept suffered largely from the global cool downs. Barrier! Now I have to wait 12 seconds to do Warp! With the system removing about half of the abilities Sheppard could have, this felt like a lemon covered in salt applied to a festering open wound.

And what's up with Barrier, Geth Shields, and Fortification doing the *exact same thing*? They're just all worse versions of Tech Armor.

I dislike regenerating health, and I dislike the cover system tat made me feel as though I was playing Gears of War. Both were minor however.

What was really disappointing in is the new criteria for level gains. It, for me, was literally, "Do a mission gain and a level or two. Side Quests are unimportant".

I had the most fun doing runs on a second playthrough of a previous ME2 character using a Sentinel with Armor Piercing Rounds. I abused Tech Armor, Tungsten Rounds with the SMG, and Warp (the only worthwhile power as even shockwave wasn't powerful enough thanks to the large amounts of shields and barriers and armor on higher difficulties). The SMG never runs out of ammo. NEVER. And with Tungsten Ammo tearing through the things the SMG is naturally weak against I found no reason to ever want to use the low capacity pistol. I used the geth pulse rifle if my target was far enough away.

My friend found Biotic Rush to be his savior as a Vanguard, he could literally use it to move across the map to the cut scene. Another friend did the same thing with the cloak from Infiltrator.

Unlike them I've only ever had to run to one cut scene.

Overall I'd still say the game is an improvement, I feel it flowed better. And Hanar are still big stupid Jellyfish.
 

xqxm

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Games where you need a damn spreadsheet in order to level up properly, like Fallout and KOTOR definately does not float my boat. In fact, it riddles it with bullets, loads it with 60 bazillion tons of crap and sink it in the atlantic. What i do like, however, is customization and RPG elements that's just enough for me to be able to change my character and how people respond to me, while not bothering with a single word in the likes of "Agility".

Fable is a good example. It could have been even better, but it's a fine example by my reckoning. You choose whether you want to be a melee-fighter, bow-fighter or magician, and whether you want to be good or evil, but you can always change your alignment later by either doing charity work or sacrificing innocent civilians to satan. And it has those system-breaking moments you mentioned, for example, if you don't upgrade shit until you've tried to pull the sword from the stone, you can instantly upgrade your strength and toughness the required amount of points and get an immensively powerful weapon before fighting in the arena.

Also, going overboard with the whole "RPG" aspect can have other sad consequences, and i don't say that only because i regard tabletop RPG-players as the nerds among nerds. No, when you pull something like KOTOR did, where the game freezes every time you spot an enemy, and you program your party to do an extremely choreographed and effective attack on whatever sandmonster you're facing at the moment, you have completely stripped out all the excitement by my reckoning. It all just becomes an RTS that walks like an action game.

The whole cover-based chest-high-wall scheme comes close to this aswell, even though it doesn't give off the same foul stench of destroying any sense of fast-paced action.

I guess my point with this rant is: Good for them. Use RPG elements responsibly, and you're likely to appeal to a bigger crowd than the ones who go into their games with a calculator firmly seated in their pocket protector, and an altar in their wardrobe on which math and efficiency are firmly seated.
 

Bored Tomatoe

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As good as ME2 is, and as much as I surpringly liked the stripped down leveling, I really miss the loot. I fucking hate only having 2 or 3 types of each gun. Give me shitloads of guns! Take a note from Borderlands, more is better.
 

Lucifron

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Matu Flp Krwfe said:
ME1 was a nightmare of unintuitive menues, awkward combat, meaningless "customization" (which very nearly made the game unplayable,) horrifically repetitive set pieces, tedious and unrewarding vehicle segments, and weak plot structure. I'm glad we "lost" it.
Good for you, I guess.
 

Labcoat Samurai

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Feb 4, 2010
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You have less than half as many powers and abilities in which to invest, and their individual skill ladders are a modest four
I agree with everything but this. You have the same number, and sometimes more powers and abilities. They just took out all the passive specialization you could do in the first game. It does *look* like less, but sometimes less is more. Really, the only difference is that now your soldier can be viable with all of his guns and not just the one or two that he chose to spec.